tubeless progress

[ssevy]

Among many other upgrades this winter, I am doing a tubeless conversion, using two independent methods in hope of double the reliability of the air chamber integrity. Rear wheel was first, and I do have some pitting on the exterior, so I guess I'll need to wet sand to clean them up. Anyone know if these DID rims ever had a clearcoat on them? Mine seem to be bare aluminum.
Getting the tire mounted on Tuesday, and if everything is successful, I will post up the pictures I took, as my approach was somewhat different. If they leak like a sieve, it will be back to tubes

[nickjtc]

Having gone (laboriously) through the process I look forward to seeing your take on how to do the job.

Another one of the reasons I just lurve Rhoda the Roadie and her cast wheels!! 

[Sin_Tiger]

I've never seen a brand new out of the box DID rim so I couldn't say for sure. I do have a set of rooms that were taken off my outfit at a very low mileage and they are raw alloy.

The ones on my 95 were raw but in pretty good condition due to the location. When rebuilding them I sent them to a specialist who buffed out the marks and then anodised them without any dye and then sealed them. They've been rebuilt with stainless spokes and they have lasted well with minimum attention.

I've not done the tubeless conversion on the Steamer (yet) but I've done it on the 800 XC and Thruxton without serious difficulties. In both cases any leaks I've had have been around the rim edge / bead seating. So preparation as usual is key, whether you decide to just polish, powder coat, paint or anodise, close attention to the bead area condition is imperative for a good result.

I have some spare bolt in 90 deg valve stems (I had to buy a box) if you have any difficulty sourcing let me know. I'm also a fan of Dyna Beads and have used them in both my conversions with good results.

[nickjtc]

In both cases any leaks I've had have been around the rim edge / bead seating.

In my one experience that was the case, too.

[ssevy]

Thanks boys! I, too, am a fan of Dynabeads, but I am concerned that the perfect surface that an inner tube represents is no longer present with the tape, etc., now in place. I may just balance them normally.

[Mustang]

Thanks boys! I, too, am a fan of Dynabeads, but I am concerned that the perfect surface that an inner tube represents is no longer present with the tape, etc., now in place. I may just balance them normally.

the beads wil never come near the rim .............you know , that thing called centrifugal force.......................

[Sin_Tiger]

What he said, I took the tyre off both times I had bead leaks, Dynabeads rolling around just fine, nothing sticking to the seal tape edges or even the copious amounts of bead seal I'd slapped on.

The photo with the spokes and tyre is the front rim I had anodised and Annosealed (specific anodising seal not laquer) about 7 years ago, just normal washing but admitedly it rarely goes out on salted roads. The photo of the bare rim is the rear that came off the outfit with no more than 500 miles on it and stored in a shed since then. They have a similar appearance in colour (which was what I wanted to achieve) but the annodised rim is smoother to the touch naturally.

[ssevy]

the beads wil never come near the rim .............you know , that thing called centrifugal force.......................

Yeah, I know about that thing, as I observe it everytime I flush😳
I was thinking beads might get stuck to the adhesive edge when they dropped at a stop sign. The only other worry is that when the shop changes my tires, it was easy to keep them unspilled in a tube; mot confident that some may not get lost when changing the tire.

[johned]

Was riding the 40 miles of twisties to the Orygun coast.  Fast thru the corners and a mile wide grin.  Short straight stretch at the end where the twisties hit the coast road.  1/4 mile after my right I hit a sharp left hand curve and the bike goes nuts.  Just out of nowhere it seemed.  I actually thought I had run over oil or something and I continued on.  Going 50 mph into the next curve I was nearly pushed into on-coming by the front wandering.  Did 30 mph to a gas station and found that I had 8 psi in the front and the rear was where I had verified it prior to leaving the house.  I had to drive some 20 miles to get to that gas staion and I was reasoning that a leak that dropped the pressure thatr fast must be a puncture but it was holding air fine after 4 hours of looking for a weekend MC Shop on the coast.  It made it home but by then has lost 10 psi. 

The manager of the local discount cycle supply actually changed my tire.  He broke the bead and pulled the tire and checked it for a nail.  It was clean.  He started to put the tire back on and I saw something strange.  The rim had clumps of crap all over the bead sealing edge.  It was what must have been years of "tire/rubber release from the manufacturing mold" from many tires.  I told the very nice young man we would have to scrape that "crap" off the rim or it would not seal.  He gave me a blank look and glanced around to find a coarse scotch brite pad on top of the tire changer.  He looked confused andf said "I have looked at that for the year and a half I worked here and never had a clue what it was for".  It worked a treat to scrape/rub that wax-like mold release build-up.  No problems after that.

The inside of the rim must be cleaned EVERY TIME the tire is removed as that release agent sticks to the rim better than it does to the rubber.  That's in it's design.  Mich PR 2's

[ssevy]

Okay, so I had the new tire mounted on my sealed rim, and it has been holding the pressure with no leaks at all for 4 days, so I think it worked pretty well. I will know for sure once I have the bike back on the road for spring riding and the tire gets some pounding on our less than stellar road surfaces.
Although there is already one sticky in the how-to section regarding this process, I actually combined two techniques and have some Tiger specific photos, which I think others may find helpful, so here is the summary of my experience:

Prior to tackling this job, I searched and spent lots of time reading different postings, both here on this forum as well as many others. When doing so I came across several admonitions from posters claiming that sealing tubed rims to make them tubeless was a very dangerous proposition. Thinking this through, I cannot agree, as a catastrophic failure with a tube is as bad as it gets, and should a leak develop using these techniques, they could only be as bad as the tube failure, but no worse. More likely a failure might produce a slow leak, which is much less worse.

The two techniques which I used were sealing the spokes themselves with a Loctite product, based upon this thread:

http://www.triumphrat.net/twins-technical-talk/394594-how-i-sealed-my-wire-wheels.html

and the 3M tape sealing method mentioned in several places. Now to the photos:

Step one is obvious


I removed the sprockets and brake rotors, as I am replacing these. Then I built a wheel stand out of scrap lumber, drilling holes in the uprights to fit the axles from the bike. I mounted a brass brush on a motor to clean the rims, as the inside had lots of old rubber stuck in the grooves at the edge of the rim. I also brushed the outsides of the rim a bit, and then used acetone and isopropyl alcohol to wipe clean the inside of the rim prior to the Loctite and tape.

Here's the rim on the stand


Here you can see the rubber and general funkiness of the inner rim


Some wire brush work - notice the inside is much cleaner


Unfortunately, the outside of the rims look like crap. I got more of this off, but they are far from pristine


This is the Loctite product you need. I bought two bottles, but I think one is enough. Use the smallest needle you have to puncture the tip for easier dispensing


I used a heat gun to help the sealant set up and prevent it from running out of the spokes, and then it dried overnight before the tape went on. One drop into the base to seal the threads, one drop to seal around the lip of each nipple itself, and then one drop on the shafts of each spoke to run down into the threads from the hub side of the wheel


Here you can see the hardened sealant reflecting light in the nipples


Day two, I measured the tape width I needed, and then unwound 5 feet of this very sticky tape onto wax paper to cut it to width, then with my wife's help, I carefully applied the tape, overlapping where the air valve passes through the rim


The tape after installation. Not much width to work with here.


I installed the valve with the old rim strip in place, possibly to add a bit more protection to the tape, but in reality, probably not necessary


Now I need to unscrew one of the scrap pieces off the workbench to make the stand narrower for the front axle (how did humans ever survive prior to cordless drills and sheetrock screws :icon_wink:)
I did have the shop put balance weights on the wheel to counteract the double thickness of tape and air valve weight, which was substantial, but I am also installing the dyna beads I have previously run inside the tubes for fine balancing on the road. Fingers crossed everything works as planned! I will update this thread if there are any developments good or bad.

[Sin_Tiger]

Good write up 

The only down side of sealing the nipples like that is if one spoke needs adjusting but that's so rare with modern gear it's probably not a great worry.

about the puncture scares having experienced both under various conditions, I'd prefer to have a tubeless puncture any day.

[ssevy]

I had the wheel trued before I did the job. Since the spokes are now locked into the threads with the sealant, I am assuming the only scenario where they could need adjustment would be bending a rim by hitting something? Also, applying heat will enable adjustment if needed, and then just reseal and retape?

[nickjtc]

Also, applying heat will enable adjustment if needed, and then just reseal and retape?

Exactly. But it won't be necessary unless, as you say, you do something significant to the rims.

[ssevy]

Just finished the front. All aired up and ready to go back on the bike. Interested to see if I can feel any difference in handling sans tubes?

[Sin_Tiger]

Can't be sure of a difference in the handling as there was probably only 50gms by the time all the tape was taken into account. I did notice that they took twice as long for the tyres to warm up and they ran about 7 deg C cooler on longer runs (tropical) which equated to 0.2 bar lower running at highway speeds so you might find you have to play around with the cold pressure to find what works for you.