Leaking Head Gasket, Surging & Hi...I'm new here

[mrazekan]

Hi,

A few of stretch's posts on ADV lead me here.  I likey.

I just bought a 2002 Tiger.  It was nearing 24k mi so i decided to do the 24k service.

While I had everything apart, I noticed this:




I did a search and there are a few remedies.  I started the post because no one else has pictures.  I'll be checking the valve clearances so while I am at it, I'll loosen up all of the head bolts and retorque them to spec +10.  Unless someone warns me otherwise.

So what have I changed during the service:
New oil, coolant, oil filter, air filter, front tire, brake fluid, battery, plugs, thermostat.

What I need to change next:
Fuel fitting (one of the tank fittings leaks when I pull the quick release out)
Fuel plate gasket (leaked when I sloshed the fuel around in the tank)
Coolant hoses (cooolant looks rusty and hoses leaking through the cords)

Why the thermostat you ask?
The bike is running very weird.  Surging quite a bit at steady in all gears.  Revs ranged from 2 - 4k with a constant throttle position while at a gas station.  That's what pushed the tuneup.  I figure it would not hurt to clean the injectors and change all of the plugs.  My theory though is this:  The bike is running cold.  The needle is barely between the two cold lines on the temp gauge.  The engine might be hunting back and forth between the two fuel maps.  I figure the thermostat must be faulty as the engine never gets up to the thermostatically controlled operating temp.  We'll see what happens.

I'm still a happy owner.  Looking forward to tiger ownership.

The Mrazekan.

[Bruincounselor]

Welcome to the jungle. There are a few that have head gasket leaks - especially the older 885i block (I've had 2 gaskets repleaced).

Your leak is the same place I've seen on mine and a few others. I have only had problems in the winter in an unheated garage  (-5 F right now). I think it leaks due to uneven shrinkage of the liners, block, and head; the gasket can't handle it.

I would give retorquing the headbolts a try. Be careful. If you search for "Head Gasket" you'll find numerous posts on the subject. There's lots of wisdom in this site if you look for it.

[The Kurgan]

I had the same problem... I even posted photos!  

http://tigertriple.com/forum/index.php/topic,4798

A fuel leak at the fuel connectors can simply mean you need new o-rings. However, if your fuel connectors are the original plastic type, I would advise you to upgrade them to the metal connectors. Cheap and easy.

Alot of surging can be related to a number of factors, but check the easy stuff first: airbox connections, fouled plugs, water in plug cavities... etc.

There is also the "lean surge" (emission control BS) condition that can be remedited by an O2 sensor bypass.

The search button is your friend.  8)

Good luck and welcome to the site.

[2004Tiger]

Welcome. Lots of good advice so far, especially about the search button. Most faults have been discussed ad nauseum, and I, for one, am reluctant to repeat myself.

Your head gasket coolant dribble: common occurance in really cold climes. My 2004 seals up fine with the thaw. I would not start my engine, or need to, at frozen temperatures, for fear of rupturing a compromised gasket section. Rather, I simply add a little 50/50 coolant in the spring to make up for the loss. Not to say I don't ride in the winter, I do, but only at +40F. So, having learned to live with the problem, I see no need to fuss with an otherwise good head gasket. Torquing screws into an aluminium  block is done on an "only when absolutely necessary" basis, and I would not over-torque as you stated. If you go ahead and replace the gasket and reassemble per specs, you are likely to end up just where you are now plus wear and tear on the block threads.

[mrazekan]

Thanks for the responses.

Bruin,

Trust me, I'll be careful!  I've replaced the gaskets on my r65 already once.  Then had to retorque them a few time as the oiling tubes would not seal.  It pained me to loosen and tighten the heads so many times!


Kurgan,

I am surprised I did not find the thread you mentioned.  My idea for retorquing the headbolts came from this thread:
http://tigertriple.com/forum/viewtopic. ... olant+leak

Lordy mentions this procedure in your thread as well.  In both threads, Lordy mentions a 25 ft*lb, 30 ft*lb, 90 deg retorquing sequence.  The manual indicates a 15 ft*lb, 20 ft*lb, 90 deg retorquing sequence.  That's why I stated a +10 on the retorque values.

Thanks for the link.

My connectors are plastic.  I have an invoice saying they had been replaced but it is obviously not the case.  

I checked all of the things you mentioned.  The plugs looked normal but worn.  Glad I'm replacing them.  I'm using the lucas fuel injector cleaning additive for cleaning out the injectors.  I'm also having the off road fuel map loaded as there is a K&N airfilter on the bike.  I've also noted lots of popping on decel.  I'll be balancing the throttle bodies as well.  I hope all of this helps!


2004Tiger,

I hear you about the reposting of information.  My search was 'head gasket coolant leak' search for all terms in girlies tech.  I could find no posts with pictures of the leak so I decided to post some for clarification.  

I also pretty much stated what I was going to do based on the info I found.  It was asking for a reply only if I was going to do something stupid.  (I have been known for doing that =^)

The last thing I want to do right now is replace the head gasket.  From all of the info I have gathered, it looks like that is not necessary.  You are right about the cold weather problem.  The temps dipped below freezing here in Portland and that's when I saw the problem.  

I agree that tightening and retightening head bolts into an aluminum head and block should be done on an absolutely necessary basis.  But I ride in near freezing and sometimes below freezing temps.  I can't accept a leak.  I might just tighten them to spec in really cold weather.  When it warms up and the head expands, it will create higher tension in the bolts.  


Thanks again to all.  I'll update this post when I finish the 24k service.

[Cleaverid]

I noticed a few small dribbles of coolant on my 04 and talked to my friend Pat that was a mechanic for the Triumph, BMW, Ducati shop in Boise before he started his own diesel truck performance company.  I asked if I sould be really concerned and fix it immediately or just wait until my valve adjustment. He said wait but retorquing the head would probally not cure the problem, replace the gasket with the new metal one.  You may get lucky however with retorquing,  who knows. I had seen in some other threads that shops had said that the motor had to be pulled to do the job, not according to him as I posed that question exactly. @5 hr job including adjusting the valves.  This may be due to the year of my bike though or he's cutting me a deal, I'm not sure. I may just get it done before riding season so I don't worry about it. Just FYI
Cleaver

[Bruincounselor]

I had seen in some other threads that shops had said that the motor had to be pulled to do the job, not according to him as I posed that question exactly

I can confirm that the entire head can be pulled without motor removal. 8)

[The Kurgan]

Hi there Kurgan, I noticed a few small dribbles of coolant on my 04 and talked to my friend Pat that was a mechanic for the Triumph, BMW, Ducati shop in Boise before he started his own diesel truck performance company. I asked if I sould be really concerned and fix it immediately or just wait until my valve adjustment. He said wait but retorquing the head would probally not cure the problem, replace the gasket with the new metal one. You may get lucky however with retorquing, who knows. I had seen in some other threads that shops had said that the motor had to be pulled to do the job, not according to him as I posed that question exactly. @5 hr job including adjusting the valves. This may be due to the year of my bike though or he's cutting me a deal, I'm not sure. I may just get it done before riding season so I don't worry about it. Just FYI, hope the dealer didn't ding you too bad.  How many hours were you billed for?
Cleaver

Cleavy baby;

I had the same issue as you -- a weeping head gasket. Nothing major, just annoying. Leaving it alone can lead to BIGGER problems down the road (blown gasket). So it is best to get it fixed, now. It is a widely known problem on a number of pre-2006 955i models verified by Triumph.

You definitely do not have to pull the motor to do the job (as you can see in the photos below). My 2005 Tiger was done under warranty so I do not know exactly how long it took, but my guess is that it was about a "days work" (5-7 hours!). It is really not a complicated job, and the only proper fix, IMHO, is the new, updated all-metal head gasket found on all 2006+ triumphs. Retorquing the head bolts is not guaranteed to work, and you do not want to risk retorquing on an aluminum head! It is so f&$king easy to strip screws on the 955i motor! The following are photos of my head gasket job. The first bunch were taken by me (I asked the shop to call me once things were taken apart), the later bunch were taken by the shop technician (which was a complete surprize), so there is overlap (and in no particular order). As you can see, I insisted on photos of every angle of the engine. Since they will have to remove the head, you might as well know the status of your pistons, cylinders, valves, valve seals, etc. Not surprizing (my Tiger only had 1800 KM on it at the time), mine were perfect. Hopefully yours will be to! The upside to a head gasket job, aside from a properly functioning gasket, is you get the valves/shims done, new oil, new coolant and a general inspection of your motor/head. I hope this puts your mind at ease. Good luck.

[Cleaverid]

The bike is in the shop getting the head gasket fixed today, glad I had it done.  The gasket was close to failing into the cylinder. Word to the wise, get it fixed!  I pick it up tomorrow and will take pics of the old gasket if it isn't destroyed. My mechanic hadn't seen this on many bikes before but it is risky running it with a leak and no way to tell if it could happen.  Everything else looked great in the motor. Cylinders looked great  as did the valves.  No pics unfortunately, but the piece of mind is nice since I have some long rides planed this summer. Labor was 6 hours, should have been 7 but he is sticking to his 1st quote @ $70 an hour. Including checking the valves.  Gasket kit hurt at @$300 with sales tax in Idaho (6%). 2 gallons of Prestone that can mix with any color coolant $30 (I probally got way too much and previously had BMW blue fluid in it) 4T mobile oil @$50 oil filter I can't remember but not too much. Piece of mind that I won't hydraulic a cylinder doing 90mph, PRICELESS.

Cleaver

[The Kurgan]

Good to hear you're getting the work done!

[PeteH]

Mines been leaking for the last 3 years, but once again only when the temperature drops. No sign of coolant once the ambient gets to acceptable and nothing contaminating the oil. 24k service was due 2k back, so I`ll check on the cost of a gasket change while they`re at it, I take it the head will need skimming.
Also, I recently noticed a small amount of oil on the floor under the engine and think its coming down from the back of the exhaust on #1 pot, all looks dry above tho :?

[Cleaverid]

My gasket change was quoted at 6 hrs but should have been 7 (he's been out of the bike buisness and in a new profession for a while now)  Gasket kit was almost $300 (ouch)  Plus oil, coolant etc.  My gasket was pooching in between the cylinder walls and could have leaked into the jugs.  I'll post a picture tomorrow of the gasket.  I'd figure 700-850 depending on your shops rate just for the gasket but since you are already doing the 24 k service and the tank will be off and they will be checking your valves it may meld in.  Get a hard quote for the 24k service and then ask how much to add the head gasket also.  If they quote another 7 hrs labor you are getting screwed.  Everthing is accesed except removing the head and sealing the cylinders. I'll ask my friend how many hours a 24k should take and let you know.
Cleaver

[PeteH]

Tigs is booked in for the head gasket on 7 Mar, the guy doing it recons the gasket wont fail inwards but the leak outwards will get progressevly(?) worse, which it is.
So, the quote comes in at £240 for labour & parts, this includes doing the valve shims and loosening the headstock a tad. I also mentioned doing the breather mod while the tanks off, but think that will be down to me to sort.

Edit - Anyone know if there`s an upgrade on the head gasket as on the 955?

[mrazekan]

WOW!  I never imagined my first post would end up with detailed photos and so many replies!  

Update:
24k service done.  I had 6 valves out of spec.  Without the valve shim tool I ended up taking the cams on and off 4 times.  The thermostat looked fine.  I still replaced it.  The hoses were straight forward.  The female fuel fittings now are metal and match the males.  Brakes bled (WOW!), oil, coolant, yada, yada, yada.  

Be very careful when removing the cams.  You are not at TDC when the arrows on the cams are pointing away from each other.  I convinced myself it was TDC and removed the cams.  They spun up and did some scary things as I was removing them.  Didn't happen when I removed them at TDC.

The coolant leak you ask...FIXED!!!  I ended up with a 20 ft*lb, 25 ft*lb, 90 deg retorquing sequence or halfway between the manual spec and some recommendations online.  This was all done in a 35 degree garage.  Looks like it sealed right up.  

I noticed I still had surging at low speeds and RPMs.  I took the bike in to the shop to get the off road tune.  They noticed the chain was WAY shot so I had the chain and  sprockets replacedl.  What a difference!  I think most of my surging was from a severely worn chain.  There was less popping on decel too.

I took a ride out to the Oregon coast on a beautiful twisty road.  Between that ride and a few others I've made both on and off road since then, I really like this bike.  If the suspension were a bit better, it would kill!  Ive bottomed out the front a number of times.  

Now onto the new problem.  I slowly discharge my battery.  I can't trust the bike on a long trip.  That is exactly why I bought the bike though.  I have done plenty of searches and my problem appears to be unique.  So I'll likely be starting a new thread on the charging problem I am seeing.  

Thank you all very much for your input.  If you ahve specific questions, please feel free to ask.