Pops bangs and rough running

[Bixxer Bob]

I put my Girly into the dealer after some rough running, wanting a remap.  Initially he couldn't get a map to take, so I took her home, removed the O2 bypass and took it back.  He did the remap no problem and went on to balance the TBs as we agreed.  He said after an hour's work she was running real sweet.  Then she cut out and wouldn't start. Then she started and cut out, and so on.  Also, with ign on but engine not started the rev counter shows 4000rpm.  Investigation when she won't start shows fuel pressure and spark,  but the injectors are not functioning, and I mean all three, not just one.  As I have electrical farckles, dealer is reluctant to burn my cash looking for the fault, so suggested I take her home, strip out the farkles and then try to trace the fault.  He said he'll help with manual references etc where I need them for free so he's being very fair I think.  (unless of course he blew my ECU and isn't owning up to it, but I don't think so).  He suggested going round all the ground connections first and making sure they're clean and good. Which I'll do when I get her back in the morning.

Meanwhile,  I've been scanning the Haynes wiring diagram and have deduced that the injectors have a live supply coming from the ECU relay and go to ground through the ECU, so first check will be contacts on the ECU relay.  I noticed too that the ECU has an always-on supply from the ECU relay coil which it must ground to kick in the injector supply and the supply to the cooling fan.  What I can't trace so far is how the ECU knows when the ingnition switch is turned on.  Any electrics gurus out there know how this works?  My second check will be ECU earths and then plugs/ connectors etc.

Wish me luck, as I REALLY hope this is not a faulty ECU.... :roll:

[Bixxer Bob]

Can anyone positively identify the ECM relay for me please,  nor sure where it is.... I think it's one of the ones near the ECM but not sure.

[oxnsox]

(edit)
Meanwhile,  I've been scanning the Haynes wiring diagram and have deduced that the injectors have a live supply coming from the ECU relay and go to ground through the ECU, so first check will be contacts on the ECU relay.

Agreed. It is typical in most automotive systems to switch the earth. Meaning the systems control the (negative wire) connection which is usually to a frame part.
They do this because the frame is effectively one great big wire and it saves on putting separate earth (negative) wires into the looms, as this would make the looms about twice the size they are now. (also saves on weight and cost)
The earth connections are therefore more critical than we often imagine because they are not actually all connected at the same point. Dirt, corrosion and general wear and tear can mean some of these earth points are not actually very well (electrically) connected to the actual battery negative point.
So yes check the earthing wires from the ECM back to the point they attach to the frame/battery.

I noticed too that the ECU has an always-on supply from the ECU relay coil which it must ground to kick in the injector supply and the supply to the cooling fan.  What I can't trace so far is how the ECU knows when the ingnition switch is turned on.  Any electrics gurus out there know how this works?  My second check will be ECU earths and then plugs/ connectors etc.

OK, soo I'm on the Haynes book as well... bear with me as I write it down to work it thru:
-ECM relay is activated by an earth appearing on F3 of the ECU
-Power on the Ignition switch comes via the Main fuse. When switched on, the power is switched to the following: Kill Switch, Headlight fuse and Instrument fuse.
If you follow the Green/red from the kill switch you'll find it terminates at pins 2 & 4 on the Alarm Connection Plug (after going thru the fuse block)
I'm betting there is a shorting plug plugged into this connector that connects 2 & 4 to pins 1 & 3, with 3 supplying the ECM at E1.
Using a connector like this would make it easy to fit an immobiliser because it simply breaks this supply line.(which also goes elsewhere)
If you look at the other connector pins you can see that 6 is (probably) an always on supply, which would power the alarm. 7 & 8, if linked to a supply (thru a relay in the alarm unit) would bring on all your indicators.   5 appears to be an earth as are 9 & 12, there is probably an earth connection to the jumper plug.

Wish me luck, as I REALLY hope this is not a faulty ECU.... :roll:

Soo you just have to find that connector and see if you are getting volts on 2 & 4 when you turn the key, and there is a link to 1 & 3....  I'm guessing its somewhere under the seat.  I haven't checked this on my girl as she's not an easy reach right now.

[oxnsox]

Can anyone positively identify the ECM relay for me please,  nor sure where it is.... I think it's one of the ones near the ECM but not sure.

Its a good place to start.....
Its drawn differently to the other relays so may be identifiable by its markings. And should be in that area to ensure the supply line from the battery is short and 'clean'.

[Bixxer Bob]

Thanks for that mate.

It appears the ECM power relay is the furthest to the rear of the two next to the fuse box.   And it's ok.  And she's running!!!

Had a good day at her today.  The dealer managing to remap her before she played up seems to have sorted out the corrupted map from when it failed the first time.  She runs fine now - well at least in the garage anyway.

First thing I noticed after I trailered her home (bit embarassing for the dealer that,  a customer trailering a bike away from them unfixed) was he'd run the battery down while working on her - only about 11.3 volts.  Wouldn't even make the Stebel fart ler alone shriek.

After 4 hrs on charge, hooked it up, ran her up and she runs fine so far.  

One problem hasn't gone away though.  As soon as you turn the ingnition on the rev counter jumps to 3800 rpm then runs up from there as if that was zero.  I've checked the output from the ECM using my OBD2 software and it's correct, so it's either a fault in the wiring or the counter itself.  I've also taken of all my farkle wiring for now.  It needed a re-design anyway so I'll sort that next week because I'm off to Donington for the Moto GP tomorrow.  You have to see Rossi race once eh?

[oxnsox]

Hey... its always simpler than it seems...
Especially once its sorted.  
Surprised the shop didn't hook a battery mate or similar to the bike if it was just sitting in the shop 'key-on' for that long without running.  I take it you'll let them know.
And yes to seeing Rossi, saw him in Valencia a few years back....  nothing more to say.

[Bixxer Bob]

So I've replaced the battery, she seems to run ok, can't get to the bottom of the rev counter issue yet, but that can wait.  Whilst scanning the ECM with my OBD reader, I noticed something else perculiar.  The dealer said she was running rich but didn't know why.  I found that the throttle position sensor reads 11.4% at tickover.  I guess the ECM thinks the engine is working harder than it is an so hoofs in more fuel - which would explain lumpy tickover and surging at low revs, not to mention popping on overrun.

Can anyone with a Triumph manual tell me what the tickover TPS reading should be?  The idiot guess is zero but I'd like to be sure.  

I also read somewhere that the dealer can test the rev counter via the OBD so maybe he inadvertently set it at 4k and that's why it's still reading that high - lets face it my confidence in him is not high since he told me my battery was ok....

I think I'm gonna buy a Tuneboy and fix this sucker myself - one way or another.

[Stretch]

The manual doesn't list, or even mention, hard numerical values.  All the tests listed are pass / fail items to be run through the Triumph® Diagnostic Tool.

[Bixxer Bob]

Hmm, wonder how the stealer sets it up..... CO percentage in the exhaust maybe?

[Bixxer Bob]

Thanks Stretch.

Had a good reply over on RAT from a guy who had a reading of 15% reset to zero with good results - worth a read.

[Stretch]

Link please?

[Bixxer Bob]

Sorry  :oops:

http://www.triumphrat.net/tiger-worksho ... ensor.html

Guess he owns a green one....

[Stretch]

Still though, how do they measure that value?  Exhaust gas analysis, or from calibrated readings from the TPS / ECU, through the diagnostic tool?

[Bixxer Bob]

Stretch,

What I've been able to find out (hours of googling) so far is that Triumph use the standard OBD2 interface as required by world-wide motor vehicle standards brought in (I think) in 2003.  So, any OBD2 software will read the stored values in the open area of the ECM.  However,  Triumph use non-OBD standard software commands for test/analysis hence having to use the stealer's gameboy - and Triumph only supply it to authorised dealers.  Until Wayne at Tuneboy came along and hacked the Sagem ECM now you can buy a Tuneboy and do everything yourself that the dealer can do.  But I haven't got one yet so park that idea for a minute.  Generic OBD2 software won't do remaps though. Whereas Tuneboy will.
 
What you can do with generic OBD2 software is read some of what's going on inside the ECM.  From memory, I can get:

Absolute throttle position (mine's 11.4% at idle, which doesn't seem right)
Intake air temp
Coolant temp
RPM
Short term O2 adjustment (3.2% on mine)
Ignition advance

Also you can read fault codes and clear them, negating the need for 3 warmup cycles.

For about $20 you can order an adaptor cable and a CD full of software from Ebay.  I found many progs on the CD did the same thing, and it took ages to read through it all looking for the best version.  The ELM327 protocol seems to work for Triumphs, the simplest to understand was Scantool from scantool.net.  Software is free, but after version 1.13 they stopped supporting any adaptor cable but their own so you can't update.

Another useful version was Digimoto from digimoto.com mine's v4.03

Hope that helps!!

BB

[Bixxer Bob]

So far I've expended £90 on the dealer for screwing up my bike for me.  Another similar amount on a spare ECM and £260 on a Tuneboy (yet to arrive).

Progress so far - the ECM was a SAGEM S1000 same as the Tiger, but from a 955i Daytona.  Plugged it in tonight and hey presto, the rev counter problem goes away.  And she runs on the Daytona map, although she won't tick over.  Throttle response was pin sharp though and sounded aggresive.  (Daytona has different cams and way more fuel added and ignition advance than the Tiger so I'm surprised she ran at all really).  So when the Tuneboy arrives,  I'll remap my ECM and keep the Daytona one as a spare.

All this because the dealer couldn't identify that my battery was shot and loaded a corrupt map three times before he gave up.  Did I say originally I thought he was being reasonable???? Yeh right!!!

He's cost me close on £500 and many hours of my time to fix something he did. Tahnkfully,  I didn't let him persuade me I needed a new ECM!!! Problem is I can't prove any of this because he insists it was my farkles that introduced the problem.  Only thing I don't understand is he used a jumper battery while he was working on the remaps, so I guess not only did he not spot my battery was u/s, but he didn't spot his own is a dud as well.