So I pulled the starter cover off tonight and found it filled with this stuff. Have always had a coolant smell with the bike (was convinced here that it was likely just coming from the overflow tank). In 15k and 3 years I have added a total of 1/2 a liter of coolant (just to top it off about annually). Have always had a little froth when I check the oil but I am also one that does a good bit of short trips (under 2 miles). Bike has never been overheated. Temp usually runs at a 1/4 normally, never above 1/2 even in traffic. Never an evidence of external coolant drips. Aside from the shifting issues it runs like a top Mine is a late 06 with lots of 1050 bits on it. Where should I look first?
What does the rest of your oil look like?
Didn't drain it but from the dipstick it looks like 2000-2500 mile oil. A little darker but not bad. There has always been a bit of "milk along the top of the dipstick but I don't notice any froth. Rode it down to dc and back for breakfast this morning (about 300 miles total and it ran fine in the sub zero temps) but should have warmed up emough to burn any condensation build up right. Of course I filled the tank before putting it in the garage to do this tonight so I really don't want to take the tank off.
Minus the fact it looks very gross...
My first thought is a slow anti-freeze leak. I have a guess what it might be. How many miles on engine?
22k.
Including mechanics, have you ever had the engine open? Example... removed the head replaced rings, engine sleeves?
Noda, at least that I know of, bought it with 8k on the odo so I would doubt it needed anything prior
Do you use any oil additives?
Noda, just Mobil 1 4t though the next change will be with castrol 4t as it was 1/2 the price for a 6 pack so figured it was worth a try
I would like some of these other guys to chime in...
I think you have a slow antifreeze leak getting in your oil. But, your bike doesn't have that many miles and I don't think you have a cracked block or head.
You definitely found your clutch slipping problem. :thumbsup
That was my first thought but there was so much water in there I couldn't possibly see it being coolant though as I have only put in at best a 1/2 liter in 3 years. No coolant smell at all and it didn't have the sweet taste of coolant either.
It isn't slipping, it is sticking.
I would be very hesitant as well as 10k of those miles came in a 3 week period. I do lots of short trips on it and do ride in cold weather (23 degrees when I left for dc this morning)
Hey benebob !! I think you've answered yer own ? looks to me like emulsified oil due to short trips in very cold conditions and cos the rest of the oil is clear and no smell of anti-freeze !! do you ever get the fan to come on ?? i sometimes let me bike sit after a cold run to get the fan to run then switch it off, that way it has been up to temp before it goes back in the shed :icon_biggrin:
hope thats all thats wrong :thumbsup
KK
The fan comes on rarely. I'm thinking I might just let it idle til the fan comes on tomorrow then add a little more oil and some risoline leaving the clutch lever in let it run for a couple minutes then change the oil out. My old cb650sc used to need me to cover the oil cooler for winter riding and the rear dif would foam over every so often. I did pop a seal from condensate freezing up in it but that was in sub zero high temps that day. my cb175 had no issues with running in the cold but of course it ran pretty high up in the rev range. I just haven't seen this much water in any of my bikes before. I'm still not up to physically attempting a hg so I surely hope that isn't the issue.
Hey benebob !! If its that cold, why not try a partial cover over the front of the radiator just to block off some airflow :^_^ just a strip at first to see if the temp goes up a bit !!
DON'T do it if yer not comfortable with this !!
good luck
KK
Simply because it runs right where it runs normally about a 1/4 or slightly less on the temp gauge (beauty of a thermostat).
That just gave me a thought, what if the thermostat is stuck open :icon_scratch:
it won't build any heat up but just circulate the coolant :icon_eek:
KK
think of it as a high speed centrifugal water separator
with its own housing to catch the froth
If it was sweet with antifreeze smell your bearings will tell you soon enough
Quote from: motoOzarks on December 06, 2015, 03:06:59 AM
think of it as a high speed centrifugal water separator
with its own housing to catch the froth
If it was sweet with antifreeze smell your bearings will tell you soon enough
So you don't find it overly odd then? I didn't taste antifreeze, just nasty oil taste.
Klingklangs gas tank deal was odd.
As cold as your temps are condensation could freeze causing weird clutch on start up.
Clean it out good and change the oil and ride it and change and check again. It's all you can do right now.
If it was free moisture, or water, it would settle to the bottom of the oil and stay there. It would not mix. Like from a large leak or stream crossing gone wrong.
The emulsified moisture you have has been under pressure and heat and has churned itself into a smoothy.
Clean it out so it doesn't rust stuff and change your filter because it will clog it.
This is totally off the wall, and probably worse case so you can work up from here.
You have a small coolant usage (for instance, mine never uses any).
You have some (but not great) evidence of water in the oil.
It could be condensation due to repeated short runs in the cold, but the two facts above could also be linked ie the frothing is a result of tiny amounts of coolant getting into the oil.
Carrying that hypothesis forward, where is it coming from???
The coolant isn't blowing out of the overflow tank so one can assume the system isn't being pressurised unduely. Ergo, it's unlikely the head gasket has gone, at least not between the liner seal and the water jacket.
It is possible that the seal between the liners and the casing has a slight leak but if the head hasn't been off this is very unlikely.
It's also unlikely for the same reason that the head gasket is leaking, although some older engines are known to weep along the edge of the headgasket when it's very cold. If it were to be the headgasket, the most likely area is the thin strip seperating the water jacket from the cam chain gallery.
That leaves the water pump. Again unlikely, but it's possible a seal in the waterpump has failed letting the coolant, under pressure when hot (although nothing like the pressure you get if the head gasket has failed around a liner) get to the oil.
Just my two penneth.... :icon_study:
Just a thought... I'm not familiar with your model but... does it have an airbox drain... is it clear... could a blockage cause the water to drain of via the crank case breather, into the crank case?
Short answer, no. Stator housing vents to the airbox, oil fumes are taken into the engine. Other tube goes to the ECU to sense airbox depression.
Right, I'll get me coat then! :icon_smile:
I have never had a vehicle that didn't need coolant about once a year. Simple evaporation out of the overflow would account for the tiny loss I've had (I did some checking and the liter of coolant came from the old bike meaning it is at least 5 years old and still 1/2 full). I did run the engine for about 20 minutes on idle thru a couple fan cycles then added a engine flush and let it do its work. Drained the oil and it looks like a nice brown ale (without the bubbles). Nothing wrong at all with the oil. Haven't ridden it yet but will tonight so we shall see what the clutch does.
Quote from: benebob on December 06, 2015, 10:01:35 PM
I have never had a vehicle that didn't need coolant about once a year. .....
I must just be lucky; we have two cars, a motorhome and three bikes and none of them use oil or coolant. Cars have 42k miles, 50k miles, 122k miles, bikes have 35k, 38k and 65k miles.
Yeah, none need more than a couple oz to top it off the Tiger and the TVR need the most as their overflow isn't pressurized so you get a bit more evaporation. I could probably go 3 or 4 years between adding as none ever reach the low mark on the tank, they just aren't all the way up to the High mark. Bike rode fine last night in a short ride, no clutch issues after the oil change as of yet we shall see.
Benebob,
Please do an oil change check your stator housing for you put it all back together... oil filter too.
I don't want you offering up banana smoothies to people after your next ride. :new_all_coholic
~JD
Quote from: JoeDirt on December 07, 2015, 06:25:15 PM
Benebob,
Please do an oil change check your stator housing for you put it all back together... oil filter too.
I don't want you offering up banana smoothies to people after your next ride. :new_all_coholic
~JD
Already done on the oil change did that Sunday. Did a chemical flush and refill with a new filter. Oil looked just fine. Figure I'l rid it a bit and see what it does at this point.
Well tonight the hard shifting returned. Only took a 1/4 of a tank of gas. Coolant level is right where it was. Now I do have a question regarding sticky clutches. So what happens if y'all start your bike in gear with the clutch lever pulled all the way in. Mine kinda moves a bit forward but not violently. Just trying to determine if that is normal or not. Has anybody used one of the advance auto parts coolant pressure testers on their tiger? Just curious if the fittings fit the tiger cap mount.
I have no lurching on starter with the clutch pulled so you seem to still have a problem.
Never used one of those pressure testers, but the Tiger is the same physical size as many modern cars so should do, but you could email them to check.
Bix i wouldnt call it learching more of a just letting you know im in gear kinda like starting a bike on the center stand and having the rear wheel spin a bit. I honestly dont know what could cause it to move as
If it was a sticky clutch it would stop when it breaks free.
That sounds more like dragging than sticky. As you say, if it was sticky it would break free, dragging will continue until you stop the dragging. Small step forward but perhaps an important one.
I would now be inspecting all parts of the clutch mechanism for wear; anything that will reduce the amount the clutch moves when the lever's pulled. The fact that you got rid, then it came back suggests to me maybe a bracket bending, a cable stretching, a shaft twisting, that sort of thing, you get the idea.
Apologies if youve already done all of that, but I'm working blind and don't have time at the moment to re-read the thread.
Did you put in new clutches?
No new clutches as I'm still trying to figure out why I had all that milky foam in the starter area. I honestly think it is fairly normal. If it was dragging the bike wouldn't roll back in first with the clutch it, it does that fine. I really can't see anything being worn as it has 22k, even Harley builds bikes to last longer than that. I just rarely start in gear (well pretty much never unless I'm popping the clutch on a push start. The whole thing is perplexing as the shifting issue comes and goes at random.
It's tough trying to come up with the answer from the other end of a computer, it's just one of those things that you will eventually get to the bottom of yourself, and when you post it will be "Like we never saw that coming...."
Starting to sound a bit like a selector mechanism fault but I can't explain why, I'm guessing a bit.
Honestly, I'm almost to the point that it may just disappear. Whole reason I wanted a newer bike was so it wasn't a maint. whore but it seems to spend most nights under a streetlight (this is coming from a guy who owns 3 Jags, a TVR and a Heep).
Quote from: Sin_Tiger on December 13, 2015, 08:28:35 PM
Starting to sound a bit like a selector mechanism fault but I can't explain why, I'm guessing a bit.
Which is far above my pay grade and ability with my physical limitations for a whim as even with that I don't see it coming and going nor do I see it only being an issue from 1-2 and 2-1 shifting. Do you?
Yes I know what you mean, which is why I can't put my finger on it. I've had something similar with a car box, which is completely different I know, but it's just a smiliar coming and going, on or off load, cold or hot and cornering (diff load), turned out to be the tiniest of grooves in two of the synchro hubs, all totally irelevant to your issue but just as :blah
I really wish I could come up with something a bit more directional :^_^
Yup if it did it all the time, or only when cold or very randomly then I'd be with ya on wear somewhere but the thing comes for 100 shifts then is gone completely for a week then back for 20 then gone for a while. A dragging clutch seems out of the picture in my mind as I can adjust it so that there is zero play in the lever and it still does it (again using both cables in the bike)
So I had a brain fart that I haven't had the opportunity to try out as it is shifting a okay at the moment. In theory if it is a clutch issue if I shift without the clutch when it is acting up. If it shifts fine then it would def. be a clutch issue, if not , I'd suspect something in the tranny. Makes some sense right? Of course I'll need to be decent about matching the gears.
You'd have to check out clutchless changes when it isn't acting up so you have something to compare it with. My Girly was fine with upward clutchless changes (apart from 1 - 2), and in fact could be smoother and quicker than using the clutch, but I never mastered downward ones.
:iagree clutchless up, smooth change :thumbsup clutchless down, never tried :nono
KK
ps you definitely don't have any worn, hooked sprockets ?? or a tight spot on yer chain ?? :^_^
Clutches downshift = With a bit of weight on the lever, give a gentle tweek of the throttle and it should go in... Not too healthy for the tranny but would get you home.
Well it has been running fine the past couple days so haven't tried the clutchless shift theory. Kenny, both sprockets and the chain are new within 1000 miles but thanks for the suggestion as it is the little stuff like that we often over look. Thinking about taking it for a overnighter about 400 miles round trip tomorrow despite the strong likelihood my return 200 miles will be in a pretty heavy rain Thursday.
Well after replacing the clutch and cleaning the steels in March the issues went away... for a few weeks. When it came back it also developed a new symptom. If reving above 2k in 1st at a stop it would start moving forward. Changed the oil and all has gone away for now. Reason I sy for now is that I used the same Castrol 4t power rs as the previous change. I am 100% convinced that in about a 1000 miles it will degrade enough that the symptoms return.
(http://www.cash-5.com/Smileys/popcorn.gif) I still think it's a leaky head gasket.
If that were the case I wouldn't have any coolant in the system now. Haven't added any since February and it hasn't changed from the mark. I tend to think the only reason why I was loosing as much as I was is because I had a habit of keeping it on the high line on the overflow and when it heated up I would loose some thru the bipass tube. Oh and now that the weather is a bit warmer the condensate seems to be burning up more making me thing that Triumph just did a poor job with their condensate set up as gravity works against letting it return to the intake. Oil had zero milkiness in it when I drained it btw (had maybe 2500-3000 miles on it)