Whilst riding along, (20-25 mph & under slow acceleration) I felt/heard a bang in my Tiger. :bug_eye
Then it sounded like a lot of rattling before I got it shut off & coasted to the shoulder.
I restarted (restarted easily) it to ride another 100 yds, cresting a hill and then being able to shut it off and coast (thankfully) to my office garage.
The Tiger started right up but was way under-powered and very rattly (is that a word?)
I had about 50 miles on my recent valve shim job after-which, the engine seemed a lot smoother & quieter.
I got my Tiger home and tore it down to check the valves & inspect for damage - the valve train is NOT the source of the noise. :^_^
I can turn over the engine manually too.
Any suggestions before I tear into the engine further?
Thanks!
You can cross your fingers and hope that you got a bad tank of gas; that might cause a backfire and then rough running. I'd drain tank and fuel bowls and check for water. Assuming they're clean, I would pull all 3 plugs and check that all 3 pistons are moving up and down as I hand turned the engine. Tensioner would also be high on my list of suspects. Sprint manufacturing sells a new spring for it, which I replaced when rebuilding my engine. Assuming everything looked okay on the top, I would drain the oil and let some seep through a clean paper towel or paint filter to check for metal filings.
Sprag would usually fail as you are cranking; it isn't doing any work once the engine is running.
Hopefully Mustang or some of the lads across the pond that are smarter than me will chime in soon🤓
@ssevy - The fuel was the same for the 10 mile ride prior to this incident & is 91 octane w/o ethanol. I do not suspect the fuel.
Tensioner also seems in tact with no evidence of it degrading.
I will also double check the timing while I have the valve cover off.
#1 & #3 pistons were visible and had movement, #2 (under the frame) will be evaluated this evening.
Oil will be changed out too - hopefully with no debris.
Any idea on what compression should be? I will check that next.
Thanks for your .02!
Check the cam timing Mark's to make sure you didnt jump a tooth
The #2 cylinder moves while rotating the engine.
I drained the oil last night, there were no evident metal particles to indicate bottom end failure.
I did remeasure the clearance on the inboard intake valve on cylinder #1. There was NO CLEARANCE :bug_eye, 50 miles ago it was in spec @ .005"! (finger in photo)
Other valves were in spec.
I also checked timing - chain was tight & tensioner was in place too.
Timing mark photo is showing when the cam arrows are aligned. I had noticed this timing difference when I did the valve shims, the bike started right up and I rode it 50 miles before it 'broke'.
While doing the shims I ziptied the timing chain to the camshafts for insurance.
I'm thinking that the suspect valve on CYL #1 is what failed.
In reading the Triumph manual, I think I can remove the head w/o removing the entire engine (please confirm) - this may take a bit for me to do.
I want to be sure I have a shop that can do valve work before going too much further!
Any guesses on what the potential valve work might cost me?
Thanks for all your experienced help!
If you think you need a head job
You would be well advised to look for another head
They are not really rebuildable
Looks more to me like cam timing is off
@Mustang-
Cam timing may be off too - however, upon removing the carbs and their rubber boots I could see the intake valves.
SEE PHOTO -Yellow arrow shows valve in proper closed position, red arrow shows suspect valve 'open' - and manually movable.
I confirmed this since I could grasp the valve with pliers and move it up & down.
Sure enough, the suspect valve is apparently broken or the spring retainers failed (didn't stay up late enough to remove the cams to delve in further).
I hope a new head isn't necessary as parts so far (shims) seem as rare as hens teeth! ANY leads would be appreciated!
Getting the head removed is tonight's scheduled job.
After removing the cam, I discovered that the "keeper" failed!
I was able to freely rotate the valve and while looking thru the intake port, noticing that the valve isn't perpendicular to the valve stem anymore.
The head will come off tonight after I get a 25T bit to fit the head bolts.
I am hoping that I can replace the valve & keeper (lap the valve) and then reassemble the engine.
Any leads on where to get a replacement intake valve and keeper are appreciated!
That's some bad luck my friend.
If a new head is needed, I think that other than cam profile, they are fairly interchangeable with other models of same vintage
Bike bandit has OEM valves listed for steamers for 40 bucks a pop
If the head is not damaged , that's a big if
Cuz that bent valve was rattling around in there and it doesn't take much to destroy a valve guide in the head
Valve guides are not replaceable on a steamer head
Bike bandit also lists the head assembly for 2005 bucks .
Hi. There are a few heads for sale on ebay your side of the pond. There is one for $70. New are expensive!! Have you taken head off..valve out??
https://www.worldoftriumph.com/partscatalog/catalog/listing/catalog/triumphmc/modelid/23773/block/100058895-1-2/
The machinist who did my head said he had another Triumph head that he had done for a dealer which they never picked up.
I just dropped him a message to see if he still has it. If he does, I'll give you his info.
@threepot & @ssevy - thanks a lot for checking into the head availability! Those are potential options WAY under $2K!
I did get the head removed last night, it appears that the valve is slightly bent below the valve guide.
The valve rotated in and slid smoothly out of the guide, indication that it was not bent and the guide is okay for a new valve.
The valve seat looked undamaged too.
There were valve marks on the #1 cylinder but those were superficial.
I am getting a new valve & will lap it in - in anticipation that this will be the total fix - along with a new keepers, cup, head gasket, etc.
Photos of disassembly and discovery:
Here is the bike assembled. :icon_mrgreen:
and on the "it's broke" trailer :icon_sad:
That's the route id go. If the guide looks ok? Lightly lapp a new valve in. You can check its perpendicular and sealing by a liquid check,or even a very thin feeler guage?? But you need a new chain?? What s the milage?
@threepot - 11k miles on the odometer.
I can still see the hone marks on the cylinder walls.
I presume the timing chain is okay.
This bike had been ridden by a 50yo man until I got it.
And it continues an easy life.
Crosshatch was evident in my Super3 after 50k when I changed the inlets a while back.
Chain should be ok at 11k? But it's still over 20yrs old? A new one would guarantee spot on timing!
As mustang noted,timing looked out? the t1 Mark on the igniter should point to the pick up when the arrows on the cams point inwards. How far out camchain tensioner was is a good indicator on wear. A Morse chain (american/jap manufacture) is available. Cheaper than original.
Hate to mention it, but when something goes awry shortly after having just completed a service, there is usually a connection. I don't know what it could have been, but double check the valve clearances again, and I would drop a new chain and tensioner spring in too.
Just my two cents, and only worth that much :icon_cool:
Agree with ssevy. How are the other valves? Spend a little time and check how thick the shims are. The thicker the better. Any bordering on the low spec might indicate a new valve is needed? That was the problem with my super3. Worth lapping all valves when head is off. you'll probably find all exhaust will be ok? Valve oil seals seem quite cheap your side?
I have been thinking about possible causes of your broken piece. Is this the valve that needed an extra thin shim to bring the gap into spec?
If so, I'm wondering if it somehow came partially out of the bucket at an angle, resulting in the cam lobe exerting so much pressure that it shattered the keeper?
Just a thought?
It was the valve with the thin shim.
The engine had an audible 'ticking' since I got it.
After my valve service, where i triple checked all my measurements (I didn't want to redo the shims) - the engine was a lot quieter but still had a ticking noise. It was quieter tho. The engine always had a ticking noise. I suspect that the keeper was failing. When i put the thinner valve shim in that allowed enough clearance for the keeper to continue to break, until failure. That is why i ordered a valve, new keeper, springs & the spring retaining washer.
Another hypothesis is that the valve stretched.it doesnt appear elongated.
Valve seat was looked at by a trusted motorcycle mechanic and deemed okay.
My tensioner functioned okay - the chain was tight when I removed the head. I may still get a chain tho.
Should have parts in a couple of weeks for lapping and reassembly.
Thx!
Here is the tensioner when I removed it.
The tensioner spring was 69mm +/-.
A cording to your earlier picture of the timing Mark's.....
YOUR CAM TIMING IS OFF !
It probably has something to do with the ticking noise you mention
As well as probably is the reason a keeper broke
I would look at all12 valves closely
T1 has to line up with ignition pickup
And the two cam arrows MUST be parallel to the head surface and pointing directly at each .
Any thing else and the timing is off.
It will run but not right or have the giddy up it's supposed to
I appreciate all of the information, suggestions, etc. regarding my Tiger!
@Mustang - the bike never impressed me with it's speed/torque/power - maybe the timing was always off? I don't know the entire mechanical history on the bike, other than it was ridden by a college buddy's father who had passed away it sat in their basement un-ridden for 12 yrs then I bought it.
This topic may be paused for a couple of weeks until my parts arrive and then getting time to re-assemble it.
@seevy & @threepot - all of the other valve shims were in the 2.50-2.70mm range - so this one was significantly thinner BUT still thicker than the allowable 2mm minimum.
This is the first multi-cylinder motorcycle engine I've been inside of however I have rebuilt/modified several air cooled VWs & lawnmowers, timing belts, rebuilt birfield axles. etc. and do ALL of my own automotive repairs.
Wrenching isn't foreign to me but I do learn something EVERY time. Thanks for some of this education!
Don t expect sportsbike straight line speed,but they don't lack power of torque. These engines will pull from low revs regardless of the gear it's in. There's not much better imo. If it's not been used for 12yrs? Maybe a carb service is needed? Or at least run some Seafoam or similar through?
Carbs were cleaned and rebuilt and then even rejetted. Stock jets were pretty lean.
After sitting 12yrs they WERE terribly gunked up tho!
Once you've resolved the valve issue, you might want to change your thread title to better reflect the contents for future searches?
What a bummer! My heart sure goes out to you.
Just when I was thinking about delving into a valve adjustment myself (last done at 15k service, bike's now at 45k), I think you've convinced me I ought to let it alone.
@98TIGA - the adjustment itself isn't too difficult IF you read thru a few instructional posts which help a lot before diving in.
My issue was there weather or not I did the adjustment. Thankfully it happened close to home and when my parts get here I am looking forward to re-assembly.
Good luck!
IT LIVES! :rrr
After literally weeks of waiting on parts, getting WRONG parts, reordering and getting corrected parts I was able to...
Put it together without too much issue - new lapped valve, old springs, new keeper (grease to keep in place), new head gasket & new fluids. Front engine mounting holes were a little difficult to line-up but not too bad as there is some clearance for the bolts.
Earlier posts questioned the shims - they are all more uniform, from 2.65mm-2.75mm - I had to go to 2.20mm on the valve that had the keeper fail - now it is at 2.70mm.
I hit the starter & it RAN - though poorly initially, pulled carbs & cleaned them - fired right up!
Revved up to 5k on the lift w/o incident.
Went on short test ride to discover that I hadn't screwed the radiator cap all of the way down! Easy fix, then 10 mile test ride without issue.
Seat-of-pants-dyno evaluation = smoother engine & idle, quieter, more power.
Thanks for all the support and advice!
:occasion14