TigerTriple.com

Talk => Speaking Of Bikes... => Topic started by: bemusedinsojo on January 15, 2017, 12:51:30 AM

Title: threepots head job
Post by: bemusedinsojo on January 15, 2017, 12:51:30 AM
Also threepot what do you mean soft? Is it running funny? Ethanol is bad juju.
Title: Re: threepots head job
Post by: threepot on January 15, 2017, 12:33:35 PM
No need to remove head to change shims,but,yes you're right, 3 of my shims are down to the 'minimum',so the valves  need changing. I'm hoping it's just the valves,and not a 'seating' problem!
Fuel softening the valves ..It's just something I've read. Who knows??
Title: Re: threepots head job
Post by: bemusedinsojo on January 15, 2017, 05:24:08 PM
Quote from: threepot on January 15, 2017, 12:33:35 PM
No need to remove head to change shims,but,yes you're right, 3 of my shims are down to the 'minimum',so the valves  need changing. I'm hoping it's just the valves,and not a 'seating' problem!
Fuel softening the valves ..It's just something I've read. Who knows??
In the US the Feds subsidize  corn. So farmers farm corn. Lots of corn but not enough demand to use all the corn. What to do? Make it into alcohol and put it in gas! Plus there is some form of corn in most of our food including genetically modified corn. Anyway, the damage done by ethanol is profound and IMHO the government should have warned us of the deleterious affects. I'm trying not to sound like a conspiracy theorist but corn subsidies are having a negative effect on us in the US. All that being said, I love me some corn on the cob! :mut

When is the head coming off?
Title: Re: threepots head job
Post by: threepot on January 15, 2017, 10:27:31 PM
Managed to undo 7 of the bolts,then my torx bit give up on the last one! Damaged the bolt! So I need to buy a new one,and hope? Also,the 2 stupid little screws at the front of the head didn't want to play game also,rusted,and seized! So ?? Maybe a sharp,cold chisel is my only hope?
Triumph 'f####d' up big time in some of the fasteners they used IMHO! The bolts for the cams and head..the recess for the torx bit is just not deep enough! It's like you've got 1 chance to get it right,and thats it! :icon_evil:
Title: Re: threepots head job
Post by: Nick Calne on January 15, 2017, 11:18:50 PM
Spent the last day or so swearing at Triumph for much the same reason, then remembered the bike is 20 years old and it was probably fine when it left Hinckley...
Title: Re: threepots head job
Post by: Sin_Tiger on January 15, 2017, 11:45:21 PM
You need really good quality torx bits, Facom, Snap-On or the like. Most just flex too much.
Title: Re: threepots head job
Post by: bemusedinsojo on January 16, 2017, 11:21:40 AM
Maybe try to put all the bolts back in then snug them down. It should take some pressure off the bad bolt. Now go after the bad one with vise grips or an easy out/bolt extractor. Unscrew all bolts a few turns at a time in triumph's service manual suggested order. Be careful of metal fragments falling into the open engine.

That is what I would try first. After that I don't know.

Good luck.
Title: Re: threepots head job
Post by: Mustang on January 16, 2017, 01:12:56 PM
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-J_pV0gvc_qQ/UbRkoZX7k_I/AAAAAAAABDE/U_EBmAx72ZY/s1600/Sledge-Hammer_large%5B1%5D.jpg)

bwahahahahaha ........................................
Title: Re: threepots head job
Post by: threepot on January 16, 2017, 03:50:17 PM
Quote from: Sin_Tiger on January 15, 2017, 11:45:21 PM
You need really good quality torx bits, Facom, Snap-On or the like. Most just flex too much.
How do you rate GEDORE? Halfrauds used to sell Facom,not any more. Snap on,only from a van. But been to local tool shop,they can order GEDORE?? Think their German,good quality??
Title: Re: threepots head job
Post by: Timbox2 on January 16, 2017, 06:16:24 PM
Quote from: threepot on January 16, 2017, 03:50:17 PM
How do you rate GEDORE? Halfrauds used to sell Facom,not any more. Snap on,only from a van. But been to local tool shop,they can order GEDORE?? Think their German,good quality??

GEDORE? , I thought that was the perfume advertised by Charlize Theron :icon_lol:
Title: Re: threepots head job
Post by: Sin_Tiger on January 16, 2017, 08:00:04 PM
Quote from: Timbox2 on January 16, 2017, 06:16:24 PM
GEDORE? , I thought that was the perfume advertised by Charlize Theron :icon_lol:

Is that not GEORDIE  :*&*

GEDORE = GEbrüder DOwidat REmscheid". The Dowidat brothers from Remscheid have been around for a long time and for good reason  :thumbsup

They also make big hammers  :cp
Title: Re: threepots head job
Post by: Timbox2 on January 16, 2017, 09:02:33 PM
Seriously now, for anything Torx above say Tx30 I tend to buy either Teng or Beta
Title: Re: threepots head job
Post by: threepot on January 17, 2017, 04:27:45 PM
Called into a motor factors opposite one of my drops earlier,would you believe it..they were Teng agents! So took your advice Tim,and bought one for the princely sum of £8.50 :thumbsup
So I called down to the garage after work,eager to try my 'new' tool! I've been thinking   over a day or so ,what  if??
But thankfully,it came out with no problem :icon_biggrin: But I still had those two little @#$`&*@ at the front!! But with a little persuasion from a nice , sharp cold chisel,the heads sheared off nicely. Took a while to release the head though. Some gentle persuasion with a lump hammer,and a block of wood did the trick! Think it was stuck on whats left in of the front screws.
Haven't inspected the head yet,but the bores look good, with no lip,and plenty of croosshatch(thats good yeah)?
Gasket was in a state! All the black coating had started to separate. But the metal sealing edges looked good.

Header pipes need a refurb,and oil cooler an pipes are in a state! New beckons? The joys of winter motoring in the UK! SALT!! :icon_mad:   This job is going to cost more than the price of a head gasket :icon_rolleyes:
Title: Re: threepots head job
Post by: bemusedinsojo on January 17, 2017, 05:44:04 PM
Holy cow those pipes are in bad shape!
Title: Re: threepots head job
Post by: threepot on January 17, 2017, 10:29:39 PM
Quote from: bemusedinsojo on January 17, 2017, 05:44:04 PM
Holy cow those pipes are in bad shape!

Which ones? :icon_wink:
Title: Re: threepots head job
Post by: bemusedinsojo on January 17, 2017, 10:44:35 PM
The ones on the radiator. Did you lose any coolant out of them? After I saw yours I went out and checked mine to see if I have that epic rust.

What were the screws to that you had to cut on the head?
Title: Re: threepots head job
Post by: threepot on January 17, 2017, 11:25:52 PM
That's the oil cooler. Not fitted to the Tiger. The oil pipes were on the verge of blowing,due to rust! One broke as soon as I pulled away from its mounting!The metal water pipe to the pump is also badly corroded.
The remainder of the front screws can be seen in the photo. I'm hoping I can screw them out?
I'm going to have to spend a bit to get it back,more than I thought. But it's been a good bike in the 18yrs I've had it,only needing a crank sensor,and just basic maintenance,so I can't complain. It is 21 yrs old after all.
Title: Re: threepots head job
Post by: bemusedinsojo on January 18, 2017, 12:29:09 AM
My answer to the sctew removal is WD-40 and vise grips.  :new_popcornsmiley Tell me how the head job goes. Are you refurbishing it yourself or taking it to a machine shop?
Title: Re: threepots head job
Post by: threepot on January 18, 2017, 05:07:42 AM
I'll make a start on the head later. A friend has got a set of inlet valves for me. Just hope the 'seats' are OK?
Title: Re: threepots head job
Post by: Bixxer Bob on January 18, 2017, 10:47:12 AM
I snapped more than one torx when doing the Girly head (three I think).  I was talking about it to Clive Woods and he said it happens all the time so don't feel you are alone mate.
Title: Re: threepots head job
Post by: threepot on January 18, 2017, 03:03:13 PM
Quote from: Bixxer Bob on January 18, 2017, 10:47:12 AM
I snapped more than one torx when doing the Girly head (three I think).  I was talking about it to Clive Woods and he said it happens all the time so don't feel you are alone mate.
Cheers Bob. A lesson learned I think! The torx set a friend loaned looked nice,but unbranded! Obviously not up to the job. Just spending a small amount on quality tools ,and doing it right first time,can save you long term


Bob,what kind of valve compressor did you use? There are a few types?
Title: Re: threepots head job
Post by: threepot on January 18, 2017, 05:19:40 PM
Seeing as I've got to take the cylinder liners out to reseal with Hylomar,I thought about cleaning the pistons? They can be cleaned by soda or vapour blasting.
https://youtu.be/uAP602u14vQ

Theres a company near to me that can do it. Not sure of cost,but they can clean the head also?

Should be able to get pistons off easily,and new gudgeon pins are cheap to replace.
What do you think?
Title: Re: threepots head job
Post by: Sin_Tiger on January 19, 2017, 02:41:26 PM
 :thumbsup leave the baking soda in the packet.
Title: Re: threepots head job
Post by: threepot on January 19, 2017, 05:50:38 PM
Pistons cleaned up really well with wd40,and a bit of elbow grease. But,liners won't budge! Tried gently tapping around edges to try and break seal ,and wd40 between them  :^_^
Title: Re: threepots head job
Post by: Sin_Tiger on January 19, 2017, 06:44:36 PM
I forget who it was here that came up with the idea but you might want to try an expanding drain pipe plug with a longer handle and rocking it in a circular motion, some heart from a convection heater on the outside of the casing won't do any harm.
Title: Re: threepots head job
Post by: threepot on January 19, 2017, 07:09:49 PM
Worth a try ST? Their so 'snug',I'm sure I could've left them? But after trying to get them out,got my doubts now? Not sure how much movement breaks the seal?     Also,Didn't expect the pistons to clean up so well in situ.
Title: Re: threepots head job
Post by: Timbox2 on January 19, 2017, 07:56:11 PM
Once youve gone that far you might as well reseal em, you wouldnt half kick yourself if you put it back together and had a leak. Hylomar is such a lovely shade of blue anyway, you might come over all Van Gogh :icon_lol:
Title: Re: threepots head job
Post by: Sin_Tiger on January 20, 2017, 12:53:57 AM
Bugger but like you say, too risky. Try the plug with the piston low and gently bump it.
Title: Re: threepots head job
Post by: Sparky on January 20, 2017, 03:55:55 AM
Quote from: threepot on January 19, 2017, 05:50:38 PM
Pistons cleaned up really well with wd40,and a bit of elbow grease. But,liners won't budge! Tried gently tapping around edges to try and break seal ,and wd40 between them  :^_^


As opposed to mine with no sealant the pistons pushed the liners up when the engine was turned over  :^_^
Title: Re: threepots head job
Post by: threepot on January 20, 2017, 08:56:02 AM
Apparently 2 screwdriver handles or similar either side as levers might do it? Can't see how Hylomar can bond that much? And liners and bolts are very clean..no rust.
Title: Re: threepots head job
Post by: London_Phil on January 20, 2017, 02:32:44 PM
Hope were not sucking eggs here, but Please, please, protect the cylinder head mating surface before levering anything against anything, but I'm sure you knew that anyway, I'm just getting very anxious about this, sorry
Title: Re: threepots head job
Post by: threepot on January 20, 2017, 06:41:44 PM
Got them out! Took about 2hrs. Don't know if there is a orderly way,but took the outside ones out first. I used two nylon faced hammers with rubber handles as levers,and used the middle liner as a fulcrum. A friend helped,and I think this helped,both either side,levering in turn,and some gentle tapping,and plenty of wd40 helps? The middle one was more of a challenge. But we decided to use two thin,angled metal brackets between the liner,and the block,and used two old wood chisels of all things as levers,rocking back and forth,and it did the trick!! This job proves how important regular coolant changes are,as there is hardly any corrosion on the liners,or bolts. Deciding now whether to get liners honed,and fit new rings??
Title: Re: threepots head job
Post by: Sin_Tiger on January 20, 2017, 06:56:48 PM
So is there an indication of what was holding them?
Title: Re: threepots head job
Post by: Sparky on January 20, 2017, 08:27:55 PM
Quote from: threepot on January 20, 2017, 06:41:44 PM
Got them out! Took about 2hrs. Don't know if there is a orderly way,but took the outside ones out first. I used two nylon faced hammers with rubber handles as levers,and used the middle liner as a fulcrum. A friend helped,and I think this helped,both either side,levering in turn,and some gentle tapping,and plenty of wd40 helps? The middle one was more of a challenge. But we decided to use two thin,angled metal brackets between the liner,and the block,and used two old wood chisels of all things as levers,rocking back and forth,and it did the trick!! This job proves how important regular coolant changes are,as there is hardly any corrosion on the liners,or bolts. Deciding now whether to get liners honed,and fit new rings??

My .02

I would get the liners honed, new rings, wrist pins and circlips then you're good for a while.
Title: Re: threepots head job
Post by: JayDub on January 20, 2017, 08:31:00 PM
Quote from: threepot on January 20, 2017, 06:41:44 PMDeciding now whether to get liners honed,and fit new rings??
Well done Mark,  :iagree give her a treat, she's served you well... but the bores sound OK, if they're not glazed and are still cross-hatched like you say, maybe just rings and gudgeons etc.  Saves a job in the future.
Title: Re: threepots head job
Post by: Sin_Tiger on January 20, 2017, 08:42:04 PM
Wipe the bores with a clean white cloth soaked in white vinegar. Run the back of your finger nail over the surface, if you can juuuuust detect the surface you're good to go.

Enthusiasm, rotary stones and a power drill = disaster. If it wasn't burning oil before, it won't now.
Title: Re: threepots head job
Post by: threepot on January 20, 2017, 08:55:59 PM
Swansea Auto,a local auto machine shop,quoted £5 per liner to hone. Not done a full examination,but some xhatch does seem to have worn away?
Title: Re: threepots head job
Post by: JayDub on January 20, 2017, 09:33:14 PM
Quote from: threepot on January 20, 2017, 08:55:59 PM
Swansea Auto,a local auto machine shop,quoted £5 per liner to hone. Not done a full examination,but some xhatch does seem to have worn away?
For the sake of 15 quid?
Title: Re: threepots head job
Post by: Sin_Tiger on January 20, 2017, 09:48:52 PM
My advice, if you can still see the cross hatch, leave it. I've never come across anyone with proper line boring machines that charge the service out at £15 an hour, stay well away  :nono
Title: Re: threepots head job
Post by: threepot on January 21, 2017, 01:43:34 AM
Quote from: Sin_Tiger on January 20, 2017, 09:48:52 PM
My advice, if you can still see the cross hatch, leave it. I've never come across anyone with proper line boring machines that charge the service out at £15 an hour, stay well away  :nono
When I phoned for a price,he did ask me the mileage. I told him 50k,he said not to bother. Not having it done will save me about £140. I could still check the ring gap inside the bores?
Title: Re: threepots head job
Post by: Sin_Tiger on January 21, 2017, 01:21:29 PM
Apologies now if I'm beginning to sound like a stuck record on this subject but I feel it's important that anyone considering going at the surface of any cylinder liner understands the implications of what they do. It just so happens that I'm doing this in your thread, nothing personal  :icon_wink:

Cast iron / steel cylinder bores (chromed and Nikasil are a different kettle of fish) are machined with a fine matrix of grooves designed to aid distribution and retention of oil as cylinder lubricant for the pistons and rings, commonly referred to as "Honing". The pattern may appear random but is actually precisely carried out on a rigid line boring machine, with the pattern, angle, depth and pitch carefully calculated based on the average piston speeds, mean cylinder effective pressure (MEP), piston ring material and pressure, fuel ratings and lubrication and it's additive pack to mention just a few factors involved.

"Glazing" as a built up coating that can appear in use on the cylinder surface, is a chemically created deposit as a result of reaction between the cylinder lubricant and fuel during the combustion cycle, the results are rarely remotely similar even in identical engines. This deposit can adversely affect the effectiveness of the cylinder lubrication, so if it's above a certain level it should be removed, restoring the efficiency of combustion and lubrication can reduce lighter coatings in many cases without resort to mechanical intervention.

Lighter "glaze" coatings can often be removed with the use of a mild acid. If mechanical removal of a "glaze" coating is found necessary, it must be carried out very carefully to prevent damage to the original cylinder bore surface. Once the interface between the "glaze" and the bore surface has been breached, the abrasive material will begin to affect the surface finish. If the end result leaves you with a dull mat finish that is smooth and the "honing" marks cannot be seen and detected by touch, you might as well scrap the liner as back in use that cylinder will not produce it's full power and wear will be greatly accelerated.

In short, this is not something I would undertake unless absolutely certain of the circumstances. It would be unfair to cast aspersions on a workshop without knowing a lot more of the circumstances but consider this, as a minimum I would carry out glaze removal using a lathe, very slowly so as to monitor the surface carefully. I wouldn't expect to take less than an hour on each liner, what's the minimum wage?

Said my piece, I hope some of it is informative to someone, I'll get my anorak and go for a brew now  :pimp
Title: Re: threepots head job
Post by: threepot on January 21, 2017, 06:05:29 PM
Quote from: Sin_Tiger on January 20, 2017, 06:56:48 PM
So is there an indication of what was holding them?
Just put it down to them being a 'snug' fit? And the fact that any effort exerted needs to be upward,which is not easy. Surprised Triumph didn't come up with a tool? Some good ideas on here if you do search :thumbsup You could use an engineers clamp on the middle liner using the 2 flat edges just to give them a twist to break the seal?
I checked the 'top' rings in their relevant liners earlier,and ring gaps ranged from 0.4 - 0.43 top and bottom of the bore.
Haynes state the gap spec 0.2 - 0.41. But also states the end gap is not critical unless it exceeds 1mm? :icon_scratch:


Tried to buy a 'rubber test plug' yesterday,but couldn't get one within bore size. Plumbers use them for blocking waste pipes etc. But I have seen them on eBay within size. Could be adapted to use as a tool?
Title: Re: threepots head job
Post by: Timbox2 on January 21, 2017, 06:21:30 PM
Quote from: threepot on January 21, 2017, 06:05:29 PM
Just put it down to them being a 'snug' fit? And the fact that any effort exerted needs to be upward,which is not easy. Surprised Triumph didn't come up with a tool? Some good ideas on here if you do search :thumbsup You could use an engineers clamp on the middle liner using the 2 flat edges just to give them a twist to break the seal?
I checked the 'top' ring in its relevant liner earlier,and ring gaps ranged from 0.4 - 0.43 top and bottom of the bore.
Haynes state the gap spec 0.2 - 0.41. But also states the end gap is not critical unless it exceeds 1mm? :icon_scratch:

They did a tool for the 955 Engine, T3880315, but the 955 engine has a 3mm larger bore so I guess it doesnt fit. Interestingly I have a T300 service manual and it does say remove using "Hand force only"
Title: Re: threepots head job
Post by: threepot on January 22, 2017, 12:38:33 AM
From my experience,I'd think you'd struggle to get the liners out by hand only??  I did notice a small amount of carbon build up where the liners fit into the engine block? Hundreds of heat cycles must have some effect?
My 'gripe' about this situation is,that Triumph must know about the about the 'soft' valve issue that can effect early bikes,but they don't seem to recognise it,and still charge a 'premium' on parts to resolve it!
Title: Re: threepots head job
Post by: Bixxer Bob on January 23, 2017, 09:43:16 PM
Quote from: threepot on January 19, 2017, 07:09:49 PM
Worth a try ST? Their so 'snug',I'm sure I could've left them? But after trying to get them out,got my doubts now? Not sure how much movement breaks the seal?     Also,Didn't expect the pistons to clean up so well in situ.

Clive covered prising them out on the course but i'm buggered if I can remember now.  Why not just drop him an email?

I think it was left right then centre so you can lever against the centre one for the other two then have plenty of room around it to work it loose.  And I think it involved a large flat blade screwdriver under the lip at the top and a packing piece to stop it marking the block, if you get my drift
Title: Re: threepots head job
Post by: Sin_Tiger on January 23, 2017, 09:48:44 PM
 :nod
Title: Re: threepots head job
Post by: threepot on January 23, 2017, 10:54:17 PM
Bob,thats more or less the method I used,thanks. I took one of the liners to Swansea Auto earlier to get their opinion? He basically confirmed 'min' wear to the bore, due to remaining cross hatching,no lip at the top,and there was no sharp edge on the ring. And the fact the end gaps were more or less in spec. He seemed a little surprised at the cost of replacement rings? So I'm happy leave as it is. Just waiting for valve removal tool now.
Title: Re: threepots head job
Post by: Bixxer Bob on January 24, 2017, 11:45:52 AM
Doesn't apply in your case, but if you remove the head for any reason, and you know the liners weren't leaking and you DO NOT MOVE THE CRANK.  AT ALL!!!  Clive recons you can get away without re-sealing.
Title: Re: threepots head job
Post by: threepot on January 24, 2017, 06:52:49 PM
Quote from: Bixxer Bob on January 24, 2017, 11:45:52 AM
Doesn't apply in your case, but if you remove the head for any reason, and you know the liners weren't leaking and you DO NOT MOVE THE CRANK.  AT ALL!!!  Clive recons you can get away without re-sealing.
Now he tells me :icon_rolleyes:

:icon_wink:

Although there is something quite therapeutic,turning the crank,and watching 3 pistons move up and down! :bad
Title: Re: threepots head job
Post by: threepot on January 28, 2017, 06:30:59 PM
Making 'slow' progress,due to work,but managed a few hrs today. I managed finally,to get that screw out from the front of the block!! What purpose do they play anyway? I've spent most of today 'touching up' the frame etc with some black metal paint,and general cleaning,but to be fair,the factory finish of the powder coating is very good.. I've taken off,checked the starter,and alternator,and re.painted them. Surprising how much crud builds up around them! Also cleaned water chamber around pistons,and cleaned out cyl HD bolt holes.Degreased the engine block. Took all connection blocks apart,and sprayed with acf50,and greased them. These little jobs eat into you time.
I'll make a start on the head soon. Then a list of parts to put it back together.
Title: Re: threepots head job
Post by: Bixxer Bob on January 28, 2017, 06:35:39 PM
Thats looking good 3 pot.  Don't forget it's important to make sure the head bolt holes are dry to avoid a hyraulic lock before they torque down on the head properly.  And, the threads should be wetted with oil if I remember rightly.
Title: Re: threepots head job
Post by: threepot on January 28, 2017, 07:36:55 PM
Quote from: Bixxer Bob on January 28, 2017, 06:35:39 PM
Thats looking good 3 pot.  Don't forget it's important to make sure the head bolt holes are dry to avoid a hyraulic lock before they torque down on the head properly.  And, the threads should be wetted with oil if I remember rightly.
Yes Bob,soaked up all old coolant from holes. Agree with lightly oiling threads,read somewhere. Also been told,it's OK to re-use bolts?
Title: Re: threepots head job
Post by: Bixxer Bob on January 29, 2017, 03:10:25 PM
Yes re-using the bolts is ok.
Title: Re: threepots head job
Post by: threepot on January 29, 2017, 05:11:23 PM
Worked on the head earlier. I bought a cracking valve removal tool on eBay for less than a tenner! Great quality,and it works a treat! Cleaned the head first,and it cleaned up nicely. WD40 and a small wire brush did a great job removing the carbon etc. Exhaust valves were all in spec the last time I checked,and there seems to be plenty of depth. But,inlets look more like pizza cutters!! I've been offered a used set by a friend,so I need to check them first.
Title: Re: threepots head job
Post by: Timbox2 on January 29, 2017, 06:00:08 PM
Quote from: threepot on January 29, 2017, 05:11:23 PM
But,inlets look more like pizza cutters!!......................................

OK then, I'll have anchovies on mine :icon_biggrin:

And it might stop raining by the time your done, at least the roads are getting a nice clean
Title: Re: threepots head job
Post by: threepot on February 03, 2017, 12:51:48 AM
I've got friendly with a guy I meet at llandovery cafe over the last couple of years. He's got 2 mk1 Speed Triples,and a 1200 Daytona. I told him a while back about my impending 'head job',and he mentioned he had a spare set of inlet valves for me. So I drove several miles tonight to pick them up. 500 yards from his house,he phoned me,and said he had only managed to find 2! So,I got to his house,and he took me into his garage to show me the valves. Luckily, I had taken 1 off the Super3 with me to show him. And on inspection,they were different. He said that they were off a Trophy? But, where as the Super3 valve stem is the same size all the way to the head,these narrowed at the bottom? So,a wasted journey,but we both learned something? Anyway,he showed me a Norton he is building. Featherbed frame,roadholder forks,and a twin 650 engine,and a Manx replica tank. Looks nice,and 80% finished.
So driving home,I resigned myself to purchasing a new set of valves at about £180!! I thought I'd check e..y to see what was on there,and would you believe,a 'new' set of valves for £80 :icon_smile: Now,the seller states that these will fit speed t,Daytona,tbird etc,and listed a part number T1130160. I did a quick check,and I'm almost sure these fit the early Hinckley's?
So,question. Is it advisable to fit 'new' valve seals?   Yes??
Title: Re: threepots head job
Post by: Sin_Tiger on February 03, 2017, 11:32:36 AM
Personally I would, after all the other work you've done.
Title: Re: threepots head job
Post by: Sparky on February 03, 2017, 05:03:48 PM
Try Ivan at National Triumph in Wolverhampton he charged me 50 pounds for a complete head for my old 98 Steamer.
Title: Re: threepots head job
Post by: threepot on February 03, 2017, 07:49:23 PM
Quote from: Sparky on February 03, 2017, 05:03:48 PM
Try Ivan at National Triumph in Wolverhampton he charged me 50 pounds for a complete head for my old 98 Steamer.
As it happens,I contacted him recently. He was selling a head,inc valves,off a Speedy. No shims though,so couldn't tell what state the valves were? But I asked him if he knew any difference between them? But he only advised on keeping original. Tbh,I don't think there is? My head doesn't look as if it's had any special treatment etc,as in porting? Can still see some rough casting marks etc. Which I suppose I could remove myself??
Title: Re: threepots head job
Post by: Timbox2 on February 03, 2017, 10:26:46 PM
Quote from: threepot on February 03, 2017, 07:49:23 PM
As it happens,I contacted him recently. He was selling a head,inc valves,off a Speedy. No shims though,so couldn't tell what state the valves were? But I asked him if he knew any difference between them? But he only advised on keeping original. Tbh,I don't think there is? My head doesn't look as if it's had any special treatment etc,as in porting? Can still see some rough casting marks etc. Which I suppose I could remove myself??

According to my Hinkley book, if its accurate,  new heads were produced for the SIII as well as "Crankcase Modifications"??? Main thing was comp ratio went from 10.6 to 12.1 and valve lift/opening increased by revised cam profiles. I have heard though that a popular tuning mod for the Speed Triples was to fit 750 pistons to raise compression.
That Clive Woods bloke would probably know for sure.
Title: Re: threepots head job
Post by: Sin_Tiger on February 03, 2017, 11:10:54 PM
Quote from: Timbox2 on February 03, 2017, 10:26:46 PM
a popular tuning mod for the Speed Triples was to fit 750 pistons to raise compression.
That Clive Woods bloke would probably know for sure.

Still is but found luck trying to find any 750 pistons.
Title: Re: threepots head job
Post by: JayDub on February 03, 2017, 11:19:40 PM
Maybe you could contact Clive on face*ook, I dunno if that would be OK, but he seems a helpful bloke.
Title: Re: threepots head job
Post by: threepot on February 04, 2017, 12:04:16 PM
Valves arrived,and there is a slight difference. You can see a slight narrowing on the bottom of the stem. Only thing I can think,that they 'beefed up ' the valve for the Super3? Can't see p/n for them?
Title: Re: threepots head job
Post by: London_Phil on February 04, 2017, 02:38:35 PM
looks more like weight reduction of valve, and possible part of a porting/ flow improvement
Title: Re: threepots head job
Post by: threepot on February 04, 2017, 04:47:24 PM
I've just messaged Clive Wood. If I don't get a reply,I'll phone Triumph on Monday.
Title: Re: threepots head job
Post by: London_Phil on February 04, 2017, 06:19:27 PM
quick.....

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TRIUMPH-DAYTONA-900-1993-98-HEAD-COMPLETE-/152420581852
Title: Re: threepots head job
Post by: threepot on February 04, 2017, 10:59:49 PM
Thanks Phil,appreciate your input. But I'm concerned buying used,that it might not be in much better state ? I've had a reply from Clive,but he thinks I was referring to carburetor inlets?? Re msg him on that.
I stripped down radiator earlier. What a job that was! All the fasteners were seized solid. Had to cut 3 loose. The fan has corrosion,inside and out. And I noticed coolant leaking from one corner? So it might be f#@$#d?
New unit,with fan,fasteners,brackets etc..........not much change from £500.  Shocking! But no surprise really?
I understand now why insurance companies 'write' bikes off when they're involved in accidents!
Title: Re: threepots head job
Post by: London_Phil on February 05, 2017, 10:17:19 AM
I've got the fan motor assy from my spare which had a melted frame, if its any help.
I've got the old Tiger rad which could be rebuilt if it's any use to you?
There is someone on ebay advertising custom built ones too.
Title: Re: threepots head job
Post by: threepot on February 10, 2017, 06:46:29 PM
I phoned triumph about the valves. Spoke to a Guy in technical..'well,I've been here 14yrs,and I'm not aware of another type they used in the t3'?? Bit vague really. He did confirm that the pn was OK to use. So the last couple of days,I've been 'lapping' them in. The exhaust's seemed to have 'lapped' in nicely. You can see a nice 'flat' on both the valve,and the seat. But I'm not so sure about the inlets? I need to have a closer look now I've cleaned the head. I'm worried about the 'seat' profile? All the inlets that came out,had a 'round' profile,and I'm concerned thats the profile on the 'seat'? :icon_scratch: Maybe they need re cutting? Anyway,the head is nice and clean!
Story behind the Eucryl tooth powder.. I was talking to a guy that drinks in my local. We were discussing my 'head job',and he mentioned some guy's back in Ireland,that raced bikes,and they used it to polish the surface after lapping! Apparently,they used to get good results in compression tests after using it. So I tried it. And the next time I see him,I can say I did it :icon_wink:
Title: Re: threepots head job
Post by: threepot on February 11, 2017, 04:44:59 PM
Well,I had another go at lapping inlets in this morning. I can clearly see a consistent,and uniform lapped area on all seats,and valves. So I'm going to leave it like that. I need to order new valve seals,then I'll replace valves,and I can then replace cams whilst the head is off,and see how they're lying in relation to shims?
Out of curiosity,are replacement 'seats' available? Or is it a 'new' head job?
Also,if the existing seats are recut,how much material is removed. Wouldn't that effect the depth of the valve,and or clearance again?
Paranoia :icon_wink:
Title: Re: threepots head job
Post by: Sin_Tiger on February 11, 2017, 05:34:41 PM
Give the newly lapped valves a sharp dunt with a hammer to seat them properly and flatten the fur from lapping, if you lift them after that you should see a bright continuous ring. Without doing that your clearance will close a measurable amount by the time the engine starts to get warm (if it ever does  :augie )

I've only ever come across one cylinder head that couldn't have the valve seat replaced and that was a two stroke rotary valve job that had the head cast around the seat. Manufacturers might not recommend it as its done from new under very controlled circumstances and they've probably never tried doing it as a repair. It might take a specialist with a lot of experience but that's why there are so many vintage bikes still in usable condition.
Title: Re: threepots head job
Post by: threepot on February 12, 2017, 12:08:21 AM
I've got to say though,this engine has 50k miles,not a lot really,but shows hardly any wear on any surface. All the cylinders and rings are in spec,and the cam mating surfaces in the head look like New. Maybe a testament to factory machining,or my maintenance in the last 18yrs?
Title: Re: threepots head job
Post by: bemusedinsojo on February 14, 2017, 02:44:00 AM
Quote from: threepot on February 12, 2017, 12:08:21 AM
I've got to say though,this engine has 50k miles,not a lot really,but shows hardly any wear on any surface. All the cylinders and rings are in spec,and the cam mating surfaces in the head look like New. Maybe a testament to factory machining,or my maintenance in the last 18yrs?

Maintenance is key I think. All the engineering in the world can't help dirty oil damage. And other suggested maintenance.
Title: Re: threepots head job
Post by: threepot on February 14, 2017, 06:26:15 PM
Fitted the valves earlier. Don't laugh at my workstation! It was that,or a garage full of sawdust! My friend told me last night that he was resuming his woodworking activities. And I was all set up in the garage to go :icon_rolleyes:
All the exhaust were more or less as before,but probably due to the lapping,I need to go down 1 size on 4,and 2 were OK.
Fortunately,I already had a good supply of spare shims,so to check the inlets,I put in some 'medium' thickness shims,from which I could measure for the final size. And I'm glad to say,I need 5 @ 2.70,and 1 @ 2.75. So it looks like the valves are 'seating' all the same. Not sure what the gaps are from 'new' though? But I think  2.70 shims are OK?
I've gone through my supply,and I only need to purchase 1 shim :thumbsup
Title: Re: threepots head job
Post by: bemusedinsojo on February 14, 2017, 10:53:23 PM
 Almost done. Lot of work you did.
Title: Re: threepots head job
Post by: threepot on February 15, 2017, 01:19:14 AM
Quote from: bemusedinsojo on February 14, 2017, 10:53:23 PM
Almost done. Lot of work you did.
The hard part is buying the parts to put it all back..New oil cooler,and pipes,New valve stem seals,head gskt,New cam cover cap screws,I'd recently changed the cam chain,tensioner,top and tensioner blade,and I was given a new front chain blade,so that's saved a bit.
Title: Re: threepots head job
Post by: threepot on March 13, 2017, 05:32:12 PM
Well,I was finally at a stage earlier ,when I could 'fire' the bike up...or at least try! :icon_wink:
A last minute hitch connecting the metal coolant pipe to the pump. I'd noticed quite a bit of corrosion where the pipe fits. So I thought I'd do a proper clean and inspection. I removed the 3 screws holding the top plate of the pump to the body,but the whole assembly came away,not the plate. I'd fitted a new seal a few yrs back after experiencing a leak,but it seems that the pump body had been removed previously ,and resealed with gasket compound! The rubber seal was still insitu. So I cleaned it off,and smeared a small amount of blue hylomar,and re assembled.
I'd bought a remote fuel reservoir to balance the carbs. So I connected that up to the 2 fuel feed pipes to the carbs,using a Y shaped adapter. Fresh oil,and water,I cranked it over a few times with no choke to pump the oil into the cooler. And surprisingly,it tried to fire! So on the 4th attempt,I gave it a little choke,and yippee..it burst into life!
I let it idle low to make sure the oil had a chance to pump around. Checked everything for leaks etc,and sods law..a drip from the pump! :icon_frown:  So It seems there was a leak previously from all that gasket compound?
But I'm happy that the bike runs,and it sounds good after giving it a few revs. Luckily,a new pump seal is available separately :icon_smile:


Just realised,that seal at the back of pump is an oil seal. Cant figure out why its suddenly started leaking? I've just bought a good 'used' one on fleabay quite cheaply..just incase?

Title: Re: threepots head job
Post by: threepot on March 18, 2017, 11:35:32 PM
Took it out for it's first run earlier. Glad to say..all good! Haven't ridden it for several months,and I realised what an awesome bike this is!
Title: Re: threepots head job
Post by: bemusedinsojo on March 19, 2017, 12:52:43 AM
Quote from: threepot on March 18, 2017, 11:35:32 PM
Took it out for it's first run earlier. Glad to say..all good! Haven't ridden it for several months,and I realised what an awesome bike this is!
It looks good. I like the color.
Title: Re: threepots head job
Post by: Timbox2 on March 19, 2017, 08:02:30 AM
well done mate, fair amount of work you did there. What happened to the lower fairings?
Title: Re: threepots head job
Post by: threepot on March 19, 2017, 09:20:52 AM
I'll put the fairing panels on next. Left them off to check for leaks etc. You'd be surprised how much cooler the engine runs With them off.
Title: Re: threepots head job
Post by: Spud Murphy on March 19, 2017, 09:48:38 AM
Quote from: threepot on March 18, 2017, 11:35:32 PM
Took it out for it's first run earlier. Glad to say..all good! Haven't ridden it for several months,and I realised what an awesome bike this is!

GIS IT  :cp

Cheers Spud  :icon_wink:
Title: Re: threepots head job
Post by: London_Phil on March 19, 2017, 10:19:46 AM
Most impressed with your efforts mr 3P, well done.
Damn fine looking beast too.
Title: Re: threepots head job
Post by: threepot on March 19, 2017, 12:47:29 PM
Quote from: Spud Murphy on March 19, 2017, 09:48:38 AM
GIS IT  :cp

Cheers Spud  :icon_wink:

I know Spuds itching to have a go :icon_wink:
I could bring it on the next meet?
Title: Re: threepots head job
Post by: Sin_Tiger on March 19, 2017, 01:46:13 PM
Quote from: threepot on March 19, 2017, 12:47:29 PM
I know Spuds itching to have a go :icon_wink:
I could bring it on the next meet?

Queue forming as we speak  :wheel
Title: Re: threepots head job
Post by: threepot on October 10, 2017, 06:47:25 PM
Update. I've been using,and enjoying riding the Super3 for the past several weeks . Compared to the tiger,you feel like a jockey on a race horse,with the higher footrest position(or lower seat) Generally,the bike has been running really well. Starts ok with full choke,seems generally smoother than before,cruises nicer at a higher speed,and pulls really strong above 3.5k revs. But..below that,if the engine is under load,say on a gradient,it seems to 'bog down',and I have to go down a couple of gears to pull through it? Also there seems to be 'valve clatter'? This soon clears above 3.5k. I've suspected a faulty fuel tap recently? When the tank was off,I couldn't get fuel to empty on 'prime'. And the bike has 'cut out' on three occasions. Seems like fuel starvation? Bike restarts after a couple of minutes. Any thoughts?
Title: Re: threepots head job
Post by: bemusedinsojo on October 10, 2017, 08:54:25 PM
I say look for vacuum leaks. One of my carb intake rubbers had a split and when I went up a hill it stumbled and acted like it was out of gas.
Title: Re: threepots head job
Post by: threepot on June 30, 2018, 01:10:30 AM
It's been a while but...
Not done much with My Super3 since My trip down to Cornwall for the 50th anniversary Daytona meet. I experienced a few issues,as mentioned above. Bought a rebuild kit for the fuel tap,and removed carbs for inspection . Guess what I found? A missing diaphragm spring spacer!! 😕Without that,the needle is free to do what it wants basically? So I'm guessing it was travelling up into the spring,and allowing too much fuel in,hence the 'bogging down' at low revs? Anyway,all seems well. No fuel starvation,and bike running really well! ☺
Title: Re: threepots head job
Post by: threepot on December 04, 2019, 11:30:54 PM
Hi all. Just thought I'd update you on an issue I've had with the bike recently. Apart from the issue with the fuel tap,and carb,the bike has run faultlessly,and I've covered a few thousand miles. But about 6 weeks ago,I noticed the expansion tank pressurising,and filling with coolant. I purchased a new radiator cap,but no difference. Checked thermostat,that was ok. I even tried a spare water pump,but still the same! Then I noticed small traces of white sludge on the dipstick.So a couple of weeks ago I lifted the head off. I can only say i was quite gobsmacked what I discovered! All the cylinder liners,and the block cavity were covered in a red film,and one corner of the block cavity was full of residue? But the biggest shock was the condition of the gasket! It had literally started to break up,as if it was de-laminating? Now it looks like corrosion,but I definitely had a sufficient mix of coolant,and water.  I'd refilled with red OAT coolant,and I'm wondering if it's had some reaction with the gasket?
I have phoned Triumph,and not had a good experience with them! They asked me to forward photos,and assured me that the gasket is compatible with modern coolants? They didn't respond for nearly 2 weeks until I chased it up yesterday. I spoke to a guy in their tech dept,and he told me it's unlikely they'll take any action as their parts have a 2 yr warranty,and it's over this since I replaced the gasket!! Even though he agreed a gasket should last considerably longer than that. He told me he'd make enquiries about supplying a replacement,and phone me back. He hasnt!
I'll try and post some photos
The guy at Triumph told me the company that produced the original gasket had gone bust,and they are now manufactured apparently to the same spec elsewhere? Note the difference from original on page 1?
EhPortal 1.34 © 2024, WebDev