I've been perplexed by an increasing amount of noise from my engine, cam chain-like in nature. I checked the tension, changed the tensioner and generally looked over everything down the right side but to no avail; I couldn't find anything wrong.
Today I was testing the new TuneECU software and thought I'd fire her up to check the display when it happened. A couple of cranks, just to the point where she usually fires and then a loud click followed by it chugging over on the starter with no sign of it firing accompanied by the screech of tortured metal. it could be something wrong in the starter gear train, but as it is, I fear it might be the cam chain.
I don't have time to look at it for the foreseeable due to too much other work so the Blackbird will have to cover until I can get round to it.
John Stenhouse - you had cam chain failure did you not? Did you have a valve / piston coming together or do they clear each other? I really hope I don't have to strip it..... :icon_rolleyes:
Ooer....hope alls ok :thumbsup
Valves are unlikely to miss the piston, I'm sure they have valve cut outs in them for clearance. If cam chain has gone whilst cranking I would expect it to stop the engine turning over if valves hit piston.
But it doesn't sound good.
Hey BB !! think positive, at least it wasn't runnin when it broke so any damage should be minimal, i hope :icon_confused: don't try and turn it over with the key but if ya must turn it over put it on the centre stand, select top gear and turn the rear wheel, listen and feel for anything odd, if the engine turns over ok it could be the starter as you've already said, i hope it aint terminal :icon_eek:
good luck
KK
That's the second time you've said that BB, never had anything in the valve gear on mine, touch wood apart from vacuum pipes all I've ever done is service it.......oh and a throttle cable
Quote from: Bixxer Bob on October 01, 2014, 12:07:13 AM
I've been perplexed by an increasing amount of noise from my engine, cam chain-like in nature. I checked the tension, changed the tensioner and generally looked over everything down the right side but to no avail; I couldn't find anything wrong.
Today I was testing the new TuneECU software and thought I'd fire her up to check the display when it happened. A couple of cranks, just to the point where she usually fires and then a loud click followed by it chugging over on the starter with no sign of it firing accompanied by the screech of tortured metal. it could be something wrong in the starter gear train, but as it is, I fear it might be the cam chain.
I don't have time to look at it for the foreseeable due to too much other work so the Blackbird will have to cover until I can get round to it.
John Stenhouse - you had cam chain failure did you not? Did you have a valve / piston coming together or do they clear each other? I really hope I don't have to strip it..... :icon_rolleyes:
How many miles has the bike done?
John S - who was it then.... :icon_scratch:
Chris - not sure, 31k I think.
Kenny - it was cranking when it happened. Nothing is hitting anything so that's good. The noise wasn't like anything I've heard before - maybe timing chain rubbing strip, I don't know. As soon as I get the chance I'll whip the cam cover off and see what's what. I'll also have a look at the starter gears. It didn't sound like it was going to make any attempt to fire so maybe the chain just skipped a tooth. That doesn't explain the noise though.
Bob,
Cam chain jumped on my first Tiger, it was terminal (and spectacular) as I was doing around 60 mph at the time. I went for a replacement engine as it was cheaper than a rebuild. If that is your problem you should have done far less damage than I did so hopefully it is fixable.
Thanks for putting your hand up, I knew I wasn't imagining it :icon_smile:
I'd be wanting plugs out and turn the motor in gear or be slowly.
It's too late for that Chris, whatever broke went while I was trying to start it. As soon as I get a chance I'll be having the cambox cover off and plugs out and lining everything up to see what's what.
I made a start on it today; took the starter cover off and the starter clutch cover also. Good news is the cam chain is under tension and appears ok. Having :icon_study: the Haynes and working from memory :sign13 I think the sprag is slipping - hence the tortured metal noise. Tomorrow we will see.
If correct, so far there's no suitable ones on Ebay so maybe have to fork out for Triumph parts :icon_rolleyes:
Hey BB !! an easy fix i hope :thumbsup
what about...........
http://www.triumph-ant.co.uk
KK
ps just had a looky !! PFKL1199178 SPRAG CLUTCH. ASSY £ 183.02 :bug_eye
good thing is most O the 955i's use the same part and the 1050's
http://www.worldoftriumph.com/section.php/4379/1/triumph_parts
:thumbsup
Thanks Kenny, I had done some research last night to see which others are compatible with my engine although I don't really fancy putting a used one in; false economy and all that.
Anyway, a deeper look this morning revealed that cam chain tension and top end are all ok, so spun it over on the starter with the plugs out and it's definitely the sprag. It's not slipping as far as I can tell, but it's making an awful noise. I'll record it later if I get the chance.
So, next job is to strip it and see what's wrong. If I'm lucky, I might get away with just replacing the bearing. Not today though, we're off out for a meal and then the theatre - an Oscar Wilde play called The Importance of Being Ernest.. :^_^
Here's the clip:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n61eM_RIB2s
Quote from: Bixxer Bob on November 01, 2014, 04:43:04 PM
Here's the clip:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n61eM_RIB2s
Hey BB !! sounds ok to me through me crappy puter speaker :^_^ but with no plugs in there's no load !! you got ME paranoid now so before i go out on me Tigger i'll have to check her with me stethiscope or bit O tube as i call it :ImaPoser
i aint been in there yet :icon_confused: but that looks like a weird tooly thing ya need or not :icon_scratch:
good luck
KK
Sounds good to me as well.
Kenny's right, it's not the same with no load. And what you have to really listen for is the rattle of the sprag bearing on overrun when I take my finger off the button. The video didn't catch it very well but I can hear it.
Once it's in bits we'll know more. Stripping it for inspection costs nowt.
This is starting to drive me nuts. I stripped the sprag (pics later) and no signs of anything untoward except for a small mark on the retaining spring which I think is where the ends are welded together then ground off. Also, a small area inside the housing at the deepest part of the recess which is blued and has some slight pickup marks on it. I'd have said that was the source of the noise but I can't find anything on the sprocket that corresponds to it. The only thing I can think of is a small piece of debris has gotten in there and has since left with the oil that drained out. That would explain the sudden start of the noise, and the fact that it's now not as bad as it was. Tomorrow I'm going to throw it all back together and see what happens. Of course, that then makes one wonder where the debris came from :^_^
Hey BB !! as i've never had a sprag clutch apart or in me hand i've no idea how they work :icon_redface: :icon_scratch: but the book does say there should be no marks or blue bits !!
better get the magnifyin glass out and check them cogs for missin bits no matter how small !!
KK
I noted your comment about blueing Kenny, the whole damn casing is blue so its' obviously been slipping in the past. I'm putting it back together to see what happens. Nevertheless, I can't see ANY marks that would indicate it's failing.
Some pics here:
you won't see any evidence of wear , what happens is that little piece of shit spring stretches / gets weak and causes all the slipping
one of the steamer boys , ram33 , can't remember
used this spring from this oil seal to do a repair on his sprag and it worked better than new
http://simplybearings.co.uk/shop/p26993/40x62x7mm+Nitrile+Rubber+Rotary+Shaft+Oil+Seal+with+Garter+Spring+R23+/+TC/product_info.html
found the thread .read this
http://www.tigertriple.com/forum/index.php/topic,12957.msg102052.html#msg102052
:iagree if the blueing is even and there is no other indication of abnormal wear, it's a slip issue
Cheers Mustang, like wise Sin; I remember reading the spring thread at the time. It's not like its a big deal on a Girly now I've had it apart. It's a 15 minute job to get it off the bike and stripped to the level you see in the pics. If necessary I'll have a go at the spring repair once I know where I'm at with it.
Ironically, I ordered two bearings from Simply Bearings today that will arrive tomorrow. I'll order the seal for the spring tomorrow just in case I need it.
I'm still tryin to get me heed around this sprag clutch thing :icon_confused: :icon_scratch:
i did follow Mustang's links and it did make it a bit clearer :icon_confused: so its a type O centrifugal arrangement where that spring holds the fingers/balls/ ?? in and when ya hit the starter button the motor spins the sprag up, the fingers/balls/?? friction engage the casin with the gear cogs around it and that turns over the motor, yes, no ??
so if the spring weakens it drags !!
seams awfully complicated :icon_scratch: i like kick starters :thumbsup
good luck
KK
ps i did read you should NOT remove the fingers/balls/?? cos they only go in one way :^_^
I read that Kenny, IF it gets to that point I will be very careful not to get things muddled up. All being well, I'll know more tomorrow when I get it assembled to the point where I can try starting it. Thing is, there's a regular beat from the exhaust when it's turning over so I don't think it's slipping; after spending ages with a stethoscope on it the noise seems to be coming from the intermediate gear housing but there is absolutely no evidence of anything being wrong in there when I have it apart.
They are not like a centrifugal clutch, rpm is irrelevant to it. It is effectively a one way valve when the engine is running they just slip, the rollers are slightly oval in cross section and bite so to speak as soon as you try and turn it the opposite way. The bluing you refer to is probably the result of manufacturing heat treatment (hardened), as I say they are designed to slip in one direction and it would never spin fast enough slipping the wrong way under the starter motor to get hot enough to blue.
As Mustang says the springs go weak, some bike suffer this some don't, my XL600LMF did exactly that, spring from an old fork seal sorted it out.
Cheers NKL :thumbsup i get the gist O these sprag clutch things now :icon_redface:
KK
ps never to old to learn noo stuff :icon_wink:
I appreciate what you say about heat treatment coloration, however, it's unlikely from manufacturing. The colour is effectively from oxidation and is normally removed after heat treatment, as even a thin layer has an effect on clearances. You will only see "blueing" remaining after manufacturing on rough machined surfaces like gear shafts where there is no contact with other moving surfaces.
It's gone quiet :sleepy1 :^_^
:icon_wink:
KK
Aye, I won't get to it till next Tuesday at the earliest, got locks to pick tomorrow and a visit to the bank, sister's arriving for the weekend tomorrow night, hospital Monday morning and work Monday afternoon. It's all go..... :icon_rolleyes:
Bout time you came out of retirement and got a job, might have a quieter life there!!
While you have the sprag out, remove the rollers and give them a rub with some 1200 wet or dry.
Same with the mating surfaces just to eliminate any slippage as the rollers and their mating surfaces become polished with use.
:thumbsup
Was going to have another go today but got a really awful cold. The more I think about it the more I suspect a cam has jumped a tooth because it happened on the starter not when the engine was running and putting the plugs back in didn't make any difference to the effort put in by the starter. The only way (I think) that it could lose compression suddenly in that scenario is a cam shift.
If it is, it's an easy fix, (provided nothing got bent) but I feel lousy today so it's something to look forward to.... :icon_rolleyes:
Camshaft, chain and tensioner all good. Completely baffled as to what's going on with the noise from that area. Will just start ignoring it for now. Tried to start it today, injectors aren't firing. Last time that happened it was a corrupt map issue so swapped to spare ECU but still the same problem. Hadn't time to check for MIL codes but I expect to find a crank sensor fault, my logic being the ECU will only signal the injectors to fire at the right crank angle. If the ECU doesn't know the crank is turning it won't fire them. I checked the cabling for continuity and volts to the injectors - all good. One thing I didn't do was momentarily ground the injector output wire (injector in wires are live all the time, the ECU grounds the out wire to fire it) to see if the injector fires so might do that tomorrow.
On the up side, this all started when I went out to try it after parking it for a month after Scotland. It could easily have been while I was away. Getting fed up with it now though.....
Did it jump a tooth?
Not from what I can see. The marks don't line up perfectly, to get the cam marks exactly in line the crank mark is ever so slightly out, but not a whole tooth out.
Anyway, a map reload got the injectors working again and it coughed a couple of times this morning, the way an engine does when the fuel just starts to get thorough, but the battery has had enough so it's on charge for now. Fingers crossed for later.
IT LIVES!!!!
With a freshly charged battery and my spare ECU with a clean map and midrange trims, it reluctantly coughed into life. After a few minutes to warm it up I balanced the TBs - they were way out (how the F**K does that happen.....) and she's now purring away like there'd never been anything wrong.
The right side of the engine is still a bit noisy but I'm absolutely sure there's nothing wrong in there now, I've had it apart so many times in the last couple of weeks.
So what happened??? My thoughts, first I broke one of my golden rules about keeping the battery topped up. It hadn't stood very long since the last charge so though it would be ok. It turned over happily enough but clearly the voltage was down. My guess at the noise in the timing chain area was completely wrong (I'd had some noise from there for a while and so assumed this was it coming to head). I now think that the change in noise was due to the ECU crying enough and failing to fire the injectors. (Think back to the old days trying to start a bike when there's no fuel in the carb - the noise and speed it throws over is completely different). It wasn't till I was pondering over the injectors not working that the lightbulb came on :sign13 and I thought "Hang on, I've been here before, when the dealer broke it" and from there followed the same recovery path.
As always, I don't mind putting my hand up to getting it wrong initially if it helps someone further down the line. I make the mistakes so you don't have to :icon_mrgreen: Perhaps I'll put that on my profile :thumbsup
Don't think it's anything to do with being wrong but as old as the Tiger is it's still pretty modern day with what makes it tick and there so many trees that you end up barking up :icon_scratch: anyway glad it's going. :icon_wink:
Holy flow chart problem solving batman! Glad you sorted it, now can you pack enough of the tech kit with you to get it across the states in 2016? :augie
Spot the Girly owner, the one with :XXcomputer RSI :ImaPoser
Quote from: John Stenhouse on November 27, 2014, 01:33:34 PM
Holy flow chart problem solving batman! Glad you sorted it, now can you pack enough of the tech kit with you to get it across the states in 2016? :augie
Funny you should say that, I went to France this year with a mini laptop, TuneECU, Tuneboy, Cable and a spare ECU loaded with a clean install of map and trims :icon_biggrin:. Then got an effing puncture. :BangHead
I was going to say I carry an RAC card but did you see in the Wednesday comic two weeks ago when they were saying they don't work on the Peage because it's private :icon_eek:
We've had Sod's Law since time immemorial, more recently Claire's Law and a few others, so no reason we shouldn't get bang up to date with Bixxer's Law :qgaraduate
Quote from: Bixxer Bob on November 27, 2014, 03:02:55 PM
Funny you should say that, I went to France this year with a mini laptop, TuneECU, Tuneboy, Cable and a spare ECU loaded with a clean install of map and trims :icon_biggrin:. Then got an effing puncture. :BangHead
Great we'll mend the punctures if you take care of the electronic shenanigans! :wheel
Quote from: Bixxer Bob on November 27, 2014, 03:02:55 PM
Funny you should say that, I went to France this year with a mini laptop, TuneECU, Tuneboy, Cable and a spare ECU loaded with a clean install of map and trims :icon_biggrin:. Then got an effing puncture. :BangHead
:ImaPoser :ImaPoser :ImaPoser
Glad to hear shes purrin again :thumbsup
KK
Cheers Kenny. There is some irony in the France trip. I'd been having the odd moment when I pressed the starter button and nothing happened but wasn't concerned because it usually kicked in second or third try. Then on the first day in France it took loads of coaxing so that evening I went on-line and bought European cover for 2 weeks for £15. As it turned out, I needed it for the puncture. Without it I would have been well out of pocket....