I thought that starter motor issues were restricted to the early Steamers, but now I find out that Roadies can exhibit interesting idiosyncrasies too.
This bike has had on-again-off-again issues since new, according to the po. Occasionally 'hanging up' mid starter button push. I have been keeping the battery well charged because I would hate to go through the possibility of sprag clutch travails. At least on a Roadie the starter is a 'simple' unbolt and replace fix-it.
Have you tried putting a chrome one on it?
That sounds just like a sticky relay or solenoid Nick.
My Girly does it too. I removed the solenoid, cleaned it and the contacts, refitted it and it was all right for a while, but it's back to its old ways....
Make that three, mine does the same thing, hasn't yet failed to start but it does worry you when it does it.
Quote from: motoOzarks on September 08, 2015, 04:37:53 AM
Have you tried putting a chrome one on it?
Har har, har de har. :icon_wink: I believe we have had this conversation vis a vis the handlebars :icon_lol: But I will look at the solenoid.
I suspect starter "system" rather than the motor itself. The 1050 starters are pretty bullet proof, never heard of a failed one under normal circumstances.
Shorts on chrome bars on the other hand :icon_wink:
Nick, have you cross checked the solenoid part number to see if it's the same one playing up on the Girlies? If so it might be time we sourced an alternative.
Quote from: Bixxer Bob on September 08, 2015, 10:00:19 PM
Nick, have you cross checked the solenoid part number to see if it's the same one playing up on the Girlies? If so it might be time we sourced an alternative.
No, haven't reached the point where I might be looking at an alternative, yet.
So, yesterday was the first time in 43 years of riding that I have ever been stuck by the side of the road due to an electrical issue.
Rode Rhoda to the gas station and filled up. At which point she refused to start. Ignition on, fired up the instruments, the fuel pump pressurised itself but no turn over. I had over-ridden the clutch switch to eliminate that as an issue. Anyhoo, no big deal... pushed the bike the five blocks to my lodge and left it there overnight. Went this am with a jumper battery and cables but, of course, it fired up first time!
To make the day somewhat constructive I took apart all of the connections involved in the ignition process and scrubbed them up like new, and also for s's and g's (nothing else to do) put a new front tyre on. It came with the sale when I bought the bike in July. Quickest tyre change ever for me, yet. Less than an hour.
And now every time I push the starter the bike turns over and starts immediately.......... hmmm.
I like mental challenges that happen at the END of the riding season. :thumbsup
PS. The charging circuit is working fine, but I will be getting the battery load tested just to be sure it's not the weak link in the chain.
Nick, if it clicked but no start (hard to tell with a helmet on I know) my money is on engine ground connection, battery/solenoid or solenoid/starter motor connection. If it didn't click, it's the low amp connections to the solenoid. Or the solenoid itself.
Of course, cleaning everything will have solved those possibilities, except for a dodgy solenoid.
Thanks for the 'heads-up', Bob. Of course it didn't occur to me to look at the solenoid to starter connections. D'uh. At least the solenoid is easy to get to.
Have to admit though, that in all my years on two wheels, with 30+ bikes I have never had an electrical item go duff on me. There is always a first time, though, of course :icon_wink:
Quote from: nickjtc on September 14, 2015, 09:37:00 PM
Thanks for the 'heads-up', Bob. Of course it didn't occur to me to look at the solenoid to starter connections. D'uh. At least the solenoid is easy to get to.
Have to admit though, that in all my years on two wheels, with 30+ bikes I have never had an electrical item go duff on me. There is always a first time, though, of course :icon_wink:
maybe it's the ghost of JOESEPH LUCAS :ImaPoser
(http://www.spriteparts.com.au/shop/pins_files/BIG761550560.jpg)
Yes, check the solenoid / starter, but don't forget to check the engine ground cable; its right near the solenoid on the back of the engine, bolted to the engine casing. It's not shrouded like the other connections and is more prone to corrosion.
I have only once, in 50 yrs of spannering, had a solenoid go tits up and even then it wasn't fitted to a vehicle at the time; it was controlling a starter motor that was being used for a model glider winch. I have, however, suspected for a long time that all is not well with my Tiger solenoid. Perhaps now is the time to change it.... One way or another it will point to were the problem is / was / is going to be next...
:iagree I had the Trophy solenoid play up for just that reason, fortunately it was replaced under warranty. Just because they are tucked up under a fairing doesn't mean it's not getting hit by the elements, it just means it doesn't get looked at or cleaned and protected by dielectric grease (pause for effect) when it should be.
I checked the part numbers on WoT, they are not the same, and it suggests that the 1050 solenoid is fused. (Copper nuts are the same though....)
I'm shopping for a variant I think.
Edit: I've noticed no-one does an aftermarket Blackbird one, not even the Blackbird specialist, which suggests they don't go wrong. Do I buy a pre-used genuine Honda one or a far east replacement??? Hmmmm
Quote from: Bixxer Bob on September 15, 2015, 01:00:26 AM
and it suggests that the 1050 solenoid is fused.
Edit: I've noticed no-one does an aftermarket Blackbird one, not even the Blackbird specialist, which suggests they don't go wrong. Do I buy a pre-used genuine Honda one or a far east replacement??? Hmmmm
Yup, 30 amp fuse right on the solenoid casing.
You pays your money, etc, etc, etc when it comes to non-OEM electrical stuff, I suppose.
Quote from: Mustang on September 14, 2015, 11:11:57 PM
maybe it's the ghost of JOESEPH LUCAS :ImaPoser
(http://www.spriteparts.com.au/shop/pins_files/BIG761550560.jpg)
Be nice!! The starter quite clearly says 'Denso' on it :icon_lol:
Latest update. I have taken apart all of the connections in the starting circuit and shined them up. I went for a gorgeous ride last evening to take advantage of one of the few nice riding opportunities left this season. When I got home I turned to bike off then tried to re-start it to no avail.
So the on-again off-again issue mainly only rears its ugly head when the bike is hot.
Next step is to fully charge the battery and get it load tested.
Stay tuned for the next exciting episode in the adventures of Rhoda the Roadie.
Battery check is worth doing Nick, is it struggling to turn over or turning over but not starting? Have a look at the kill switch contacts and the contacts on the starter switch itself.
Quote from: Bixxer Bob on September 23, 2015, 12:20:52 AM
Battery check is worth doing Nick, is it struggling to turn over or turning over but not starting?
Always turns over as 'normal' when starting the first time. Once hot there is a 'uh' then nothing. That makes me think it is not in any of the handlebar switchery. I haven't looked at the side stand switch yet; cannot remember if it is always when the stand is down that there are issues... Yet another thing to check.
In gear using clutch? clutch dragging?
or in neutral as well?
Do the lights horn etc work when hot? blinkers same speed etc?
Is it a sealed battery? Or regular one low on water?
In gear using clutch? In gear or neutral, doesn't make any diff.
clutch dragging? Nope
or in neutral as well? Nope
Do the lights horn etc work when hot? blinkers same speed etc? Everything works fine.
Is it a sealed battery? Or regular one low on water? Sealed. Having it load tested tomorrow.
The charging system appears to be working fine.
Do you frequently use the kill switch to stop the engine?
Quote from: Sin_Tiger on September 23, 2015, 04:29:34 PM
Do you frequently use the kill switch to stop the engine?
Never. That is not what it is for, as we all know. :icon_wink:
Quote from: nickjtc on September 23, 2015, 01:16:38 AM
Always turns over as 'normal' when starting the first time. Once hot there is a 'uh' then nothing. That makes me think it is not in any of the handlebar switchery. I haven't looked at the side stand switch yet; cannot remember if it is always when the stand is down that there are issues... Yet another thing to check.
Differs to mine slightly then Nick, mine either goes - hot or cold - or nothing -hot or cold. No "uhhh"
"Uhh" suggests battery. When my last battery died I'd started normally, ridden to Dereham, parked up, went to the bank, back to the bike, "Uhh" but not throwing it past compression. Went for a coffee and a think, went back for one last try, Juuust made it over compression and fired. Rode it home, replaced the battery.
I charged up the battery and had it taken to the local battery emporium for a load test. Apparently my Battery Tender is not good enough and they had to charge it themselves! For $5, of course. I'll hear the result today.
But as an aside, and I'll bow your collective wisdom, I do not understand why there is the feeling amongst Tiger-types that it is a good idea to keep the bike on 'trickle' when not in use. If its charging system is working properly and the battery is being well charged while the bike is in use why would that be necessary???
As long as the bikes get regular use they're ok. More often they get used at weekends which is ok as long as it's a ride long enough to bring the battery back to fully charged, but many don't so a tender will monitor the battery voltage and top it up when necessary. That is different from a trickle charger which will kill the battery eventually because there's no voltage sensing going on.
Yes. That is why I always use a motorcycle battery specific charger.
So, what CCA of battery is recommended for our bikes?? People say that the 'stock' one is not up to the task. The 'stock' battery from Yuasa is a YT12B-BS which has 230 CCA........ surely that is plenty??
I used the original battery for nigh on 4 years leaving it on a C-Tek for up to 6 months on one occasion and it never let me down, it only gave up the ghost when someone switched the garage supply off completely for 4 months :icon_rolleyes:
You have to be systematic with this and start checking with a meter (amps as well as volts) or the words urine and darkness come to mind. :icon_wink:
Quote from: Sin_Tiger on September 24, 2015, 09:10:13 PM
I used the original battery for nigh on 4 years leaving it on a C-Tek for up to 6 months on one occasion and it never let me down,
I too have had good success, historically, with the batteries in my various machines. I sold my '00 VFR800 in '06 with nearly 90k km under its wheels, with the original battery in place (and the original chain and sprockets, incidentally).
During the 'off' season the battery gets hooked up to the Battery Tender and forgotten.
This bike is the first one I've ever owned with potential electrical system 'issues'. I'm not complaining (too much) because the bike warms the cockles of my heart when I look at it and ride it. Although I have to say (quietly and under my breath) that the Steamer gave absolutely no problems in this respect while I owned it.... :icon_wink:
:iagree
The plot thickens. The local battery emporium, with whom I have done some business in the past, has lost all credibility with me. They insisted that their battery charger was better than mine, charged the battery (and charged me) but then did not pass judgement on whether it was kaputski or not. I had my partner take it in and pick it up, but they did not tell her its condition. At the same time I had her take in a Shorai for testing and they claimed that it was impossible to charge that kind of a battery!
When I finally spoke to the fellow who looked at the batteries he was vague as to the condition of the Tiger one, which leads me to think that they actually did sfa. Time to look for a new battery supplier. Rant over.
However, I have put the Shorai in the Tiger (with 270 CCA it should be more than up to the task) and will see how it performs.
While these shenanigans were going on I took the starter solenoid out of the bike and did the tests to ensure that it is up to snuff, which it appears to be.
All fun and games. :augie
Make that four!
Really interested to read this as the starter motor on my 2011 1050 has just started to play up, and I'd be interested to know what your thoughts are Bob.
Its covered just over 6000 miles, and it has started to play up on starting when cold. Never a problem when the engine is warm. The bike turns over then just whines. Next push of the starter , nothing. Ignition key turned off, offer a few prayers, and it starts no problem. When the engine is warm its no problem.
I've just semi retired this week, so during the winter I'll check all the connections and clean them up, any suggestions on a grease to use on the connections?
Now I'm only working 3 days a week it might be nice to meet up for a coffee Bob? When I was working full time there never seems to be enough time to fit in all the family jobs, grandchildren and house maintenance, let alone ride the bike.
I really love the 1050, and cant see myself getting anything else. The latest addition was an mra vario screen, a retirement present from myself!
SORTED (maybe).
Occams Razor has prevailed.... you know, the simplest explanation (without introducing too many new variables) in any situation is usually the correct one.
The battery was at the end of its wear cycle and showing full charge but then losing said charge quickly despite the charging system working as it should.
The Shorai is doing its job with a much stronger starter motor spin on start up. It's the last 'long' ride of the season on Saturday/Sunday, so we'll see how things pan out.
Quote from: kraftykarper on October 01, 2015, 06:13:33 PM
Make that four!
Really interested to read this as the starter motor on my 2011 1050 has just started to play up, and I'd be interested to know what your thoughts are Bob.
Its covered just over 6000 miles, and it has started to play up on starting when cold. Never a problem when the engine is warm. The bike turns over then just whines. Next push of the starter , nothing. Ignition key turned off, offer a few prayers, and it starts no problem. When the engine is warm its no problem.
I've just semi retired this week, so during the winter I'll check all the connections and clean them up, any suggestions on a grease to use on the connections?
Now I'm only working 3 days a week it might be nice to meet up for a coffee Bob? When I was working full time there never seems to be enough time to fit in all the family jobs, grandchildren and house maintenance, let alone ride the bike.
I really love the 1050, and cant see myself getting anything else. The latest addition was an mra vario screen, a retirement present from myself!
Yes tot he coffee. First thing I'd do is throw a new battery at it. Cold engine is hard to turn over (thicker oil etc) and the starter sucking all the available amps drops the ECU and so cuts the spark. Going back to it a few minutes later lets the battery recover slightly but now the engine has turned over there's less resistance, the ECU is now working, you get a spark and away you go. It's kind of a transition period between a good battery and a dud which was never apparent in the days before ECUs. A mechanical distributor or magneto would always give you a spark of sorts. Once battery volts drop below ECU minimum (like when cranking on a weak battery) you get no spark.
a good example is my polaris atv. It shuts down the ecu when the voltage drops to 11.2 volts
not a lot of wiggle room .
and they tell you that right in the owners manual
:nod 11.2V anything that operates on a variant of the Canbus protocols will switch out all I/O connections.
Definitely sorted. Went for the ride on Saturday/Sunday and everything is tip top. Then put the bike to bed for the winter. :icon_sad:
Quote from: Bixxer Bob on October 05, 2015, 11:40:59 AM
Yes tot he coffee. First thing I'd do is throw a new battery at it. Cold engine is hard to turn over (thicker oil etc) and the starter sucking all the available amps drops the ECU and so cuts the spark. Going back to it a few minutes later lets the battery recover slightly but now the engine has turned over there's less resistance, the ECU is now working, you get a spark and away you go. It's kind of a transition period between a good battery and a dud which was never apparent in the days before ECUs. A mechanical distributor or magneto would always give you a spark of sorts. Once battery volts drop below ECU minimum (like when cranking on a weak battery) you get no spark.
Hi Bob,
Thank you for your reply.
You know, over the weekend I was thinking, it needs a new battery. When I've plugged the bike on to the optimate for a few days, and after its gone in to into its monitoring 30 minute cycle, it indicates a good battery, and starts ok.
To confirm this I'm going to attempt to start it after 5 days of not being used. See if the problem occurs, then try it again after its been on the optimate for a couple of days. If it then starts ok that would tend to confirm the battery is on the way out.
So I think your right, its the battery, and I'll be getting a new one very soon!
Started my new part time job today, so the start of a new life style for me. Looks like I'll be working Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday so Thursday could be a good day for a bike day!
Funnily enough, I work the same days.
Not sure about this week as I have stuff on, but next or the week after should be ok.
Blimey I haven't had a full Tim job for the last 10 years and still I can't find time to fit everything in.
Re Lithium battery I had one on my supermoto for the last two years and it's been really good although there is still a lot of if's and but's about charging them and even though the battery that's on my 955 hasn't been on all that long I might put a lithium on for next year because I've noticed how it has that extra punch right from the go.
Quote from: Chris Canning on October 06, 2015, 03:16:40 PM
there is still a lot of if's and but's about charging them
Not an issue as long as you use a charger that does not have a re-sulfation mode. A Battery Tender or similar will work fine.
Well I wasn't going to go into that but god knows the last time I ever saw a battery charger as opposed to a tender must be 15 years ago at least.
Quote from: Chris Canning on October 06, 2015, 05:08:08 PM
Well I wasn't going to go into that but god knows the last time I ever saw a battery charger as opposed to a tender must be 15 years ago at least.
Ditto. I like the idea of "plug it in and forget it".
One word C-Tek, well actually two words, unless you think of it as hyphenated or even ....... sod it you know what I mean. A proper battery conditioner with self test functions at no more money than most of the on the shelf names.
Your barking up the wrong you get fitting C-Tech or the like to a lithium and it'll bugger it up in a jiffy you need an old fashioned battery charger as in it just keeps going until you unplug it.
:icon_redface: oops. You keep sneeking Lithium batteries in when I'm not paying attention.
Quote from: Chris Canning on October 06, 2015, 03:16:40 PM
Blimey I haven't had a full Tim job for the last 10 years and still I can't find time to fit everything in.
Re Lithium battery I had one on my supermoto for the last two years and it's been really good although there is still a lot of if's and but's about charging them and even though the battery that's on my 955 hasn't been on all that long I might put a lithium on for next year because I've noticed how it has that extra punch right from the go.
Had to do some research when working on a wheelchair for a friend, ditching the old lead acid batteries and replacing them with Li-ion cells. We ended up using intelligent charger technology favoured by the model race car enthusiasts as the finished battery was 24v 75amp and roughly 400mm by 300mm. My sister couldn't understand how I didn't get arrested as a terrorist after posting a picture of it. This is what you call a battery :bug_eye