Little bird tell's me that Triumph have bought a DVT Multistrada :icon_wink:
You might get your wish after all but not this year.
Is that to go with the questionnaire asking " do we want electronic suspension on the next Explorer" and "How much are we prepared to pay for it"?
Some 'modern thinking' chaps and chapesses are now using the electronic do-dad extras available on a bike as grounds for decision making as to whether they buy it. So I suppose Triumph has to keep up with the times....???
:iagree
But it's up there with automatic gearboxes and electronic handbrakes on cars for me..... :icon_cry:
Electric suspension is one of the great PR con's,the manufacturers know that the average bike buyer doesn't know and a shock spring from a bed spring and give'em a button to push and they'll love it.
With sales through the roof since Ducati introduced the Multi and BMW jumping on the band wagon I'll be interested to see what Triumph do,order an BM XR you'll be lucky to get it by the end of summer.
And I think my '08 Roadie is complex enough with 'just' abs, efi, sai, O2, tps etc etc.. The owners manual is 50% full of electronic diagnostic fol de rol :icon_confused: :icon_confused: At least you can get 'simple' software to tell you what is going wrong. But lord help you if something does....
Does electronically adjustable suspension allow you to adjust the bike for the weight of a pillion?... that would be a good thing. Otherwise it seems a little pointless.
Quote from: nickcalne on July 27, 2015, 08:19:18 AM
Does electronically adjustable suspension allow you to adjust the bike for the weight of a pillion?... that would be a good thing. Otherwise it seems a little pointless.
Yes, and luggage load, plus suspension response. In some cases the suspension / braking / map settings are interelated. Once you go digital, the possibilities are almost limitless.
To quote my 1200GS-owning friend's wife, "Stop effing with the suspension settings, my bits are jiggling"..... :icon_redface:
Quote from: Sin_Tiger on July 27, 2015, 11:40:29 AM
Once you go digital, the possibilities are almost limitless.
Well that's the theory the reality is the buyer gets boxed into a cul-de-sac of a choice of maybe 4 settings which may or may not suit,where the fun really starts is when the shock starts to wear and you have no extra options and what normally happens an owner ends up riding the bike in rider/passenger/luggage one up!!!
I've given up trying explain to folk that a crap shock is a crap shock be it electrically operated or manually.
And of course that phase has already been passed because now you get suspension settings combined with fuel maps :icon_eek:
But nowhere as much fun as when owners of the K series BMW with ageing electrical suspension are faced with a bill for £1800 for a replacement stock rear shock.
Non of which has anything to do with where are Triumph going to find the a motor to match either a Multi or a BM XR unless they have idea's of shrinking the 1200 size wise and finding 30+hp
Quote from: Chris Canning on July 26, 2015, 08:22:18 PM
Electric suspension is one of the great PR con's,the manufacturers know that the average bike buyer doesn't know and a shock spring from a bed spring and give'em a button to push and they'll love it.
With sales through the roof since Ducati introduced the Multi and BMW jumping on the band wagon I'll be interested to see what Triumph do,order an BM XR you'll be lucky to get it by the end of summer.
Chris, I've long wondered about your thought processes. :icon_scratch: :^_^ ESA isn't a PR con because of the very thing you go on to say in the same paragraph. I remember reading a quote from a BMW bloke who said that in a survey they found that 95% of their customers didn't know how to adjust their suspension properly. So they developed ESA to make it easy for them.
It could be argued that ESA is a safety feature because it's much safer to be riding a nicely handling bike than it is riding a bucking bronco. Let's be honest, how many riders actually adjust their rear preload when they put the wife on the back?
I've not ridden a Ducati with their "Sky Active" suspension but hey if someone can design a system that adjusts my suspension to the conditions as I ride along, then I'm in...........................so long as it's not too expensive. And I believe that the price of these systems will come down over time.
At the end of the day people are generally lazy. In the car world think electric windows, air con, power steering, servo brakes etc etc.
Ok, I've donned my black and white striped shirt and have my whistle at the ready......
Quote from: Bixxer Bob on July 28, 2015, 03:26:42 PM
Ok, I've donned my black and white striped shirt and have my whistle at the ready......
A bit early for a wobbly pop, but the popcorn can be eaten anytime :icon_lol: :icon_lol:
I must be the only rider in the world who does not fuss around with the suspension on my bikes. I set it for rider + luggage and go.... Having said that I probably would not know a knackered set-up or an acutely ill adjusted one if it waved at me!!
Quote from: blacktiger on July 28, 2015, 10:10:14 AM
Chris, I've long wondered about your thought processes. :icon_scratch: :^_^ ESA isn't a PR con because of the very thing you go on to say in the same paragraph. I remember reading a quote from a BMW bloke who said that in a survey they found that 95% of their customers didn't know how to adjust their suspension properly. So they developed ESA to make it easy for them.
It could be argued that ESA is a safety feature because it's much safer to be riding a nicely handling bike than it is riding a bucking bronco. Let's be honest, how many riders actually adjust their rear preload when they put the wife on the back?
I've not ridden a Ducati with their "Sky Active" suspension but hey if someone can design a system that adjusts my suspension to the conditions as I ride along, then I'm in...........................so long as it's not too expensive. And I believe that the price of these systems will come down over time.
At the end of the day people are generally lazy. In the car world think electric windows, air con, power steering, servo brakes etc etc.
Are you married??
No I've been married 35 years maybe I can help you out :icon_wink:
I very much doubt it. :icon_scratch: I'm trying to work out how that's relevant. Like I said I've been trying to work out your thought processes for years. :^_^
And yet your happy to take help from a stranger at a manufacturer who doesn't know you or how your ride a bike with suspension and believe me both can end in a very bumpy ride :icon_wink:
Yep I'm in that 5% I know what I want and I know how to get it with some R+D from me.
What electric suspension does is take you from a zillion options to 4 max and the price you pay for that is financial armageddon with an old bike even now after more than 10 years it's still not possible to get a K1200 looked after outside of a BM dealership yea sure you can find joe blogs to change your oil and blow your tyres up but when things go wrong it's BM dealership rates :icon_sad:
At the moment the options for me is either an XR or Multi even now it isn't possible to buy a stocker because they are so busy trying to hawk the electric version,of course the game has move on because with a change in suspension you also get a change in fuel map another step on the slippery slope.
The irony my Tiger is that good(still) all the modern bikes offer is big horsepower they don't brake/turn/handle any better just because I could be bothered to get off my backside and engage my brain and change suspension,my rear Ohlins came back from K-Tech a week ago and it's another league and that's from a stock Ohlins.
While I have had my doubts about BM's marketing dept!! in this instance they have been great give the punters a button to press and they'll love it :icon_redface:,I've ridden two early versions of BM's ESA and also the ESA2 on the 1300 a Multi with electric Ohlins and the new Skyhook version.
Have a look at any of the forums,you want something different if your fat or light weight or put high mileage on a bike it's an absolute black hole.
If the manufacturers are providing what the customer wants (or think that they want) then surely everyone is happy...??
More bike sales means more money for R and D leading to more 'interesting' stuff for those who want the latest and greatest features in their new toys.. But as I commented in a previous post, if you are non-techno-geek (like me) who frankly could not care less whether the bike will make a cup of tea for you (metaphorically, of course) then it only leaves the option of going for an older bike which is less sophisticated.
The Roadie is already pushing my boundaries for all the electronic stuff it carries imho.
Quote from: Chris Canning on July 28, 2015, 05:56:15 PM
And yet your happy to take help from a stranger at a manufacturer who doesn't know you or how your ride a bike with suspension and believe me both can end in a very bumpy ride :icon_wink:
Yep I'm in that 5% I know what I want and I know how to get it with some R+D from me.
What electric suspension does is take you from a zillion options to 4 max and the price you pay for that is financial armageddon with an old bike even now after more than 10 years it's still not possible to get a K1200 looked after outside of a BM dealership yea sure you can find joe blogs to change your oil and blow your tyres up but when things go wrong it's BM dealership rates :icon_sad:
Chris,
You're showing a lack of understanding of the latest systems. e.g. the Aprilia Caponord is infinitely variable and automatically adjusts for load (to maintain the ride height) and riding style (winds on some damping if you're pushing on). These systems don't just have 4 clicks. The servos/stepper motors wind in and out as required. Unlike the 30 clicks on your Ohlins or whatever you spent your money on.
This sort of thing has been on high end sports car for quite a few years now so is pretty much proven.
A couple of quotes from test write upsof the Capo:-
And it's not as though our press bikes had been tweaked with perfect suspension settings either. As on the stock Caponord, the Rally comes with Semi-active Sachs suspension front and rear. All you have to do is ride and the bike's onboard computer continually changes damping rates to find that perfect balance between comfort and performance. It's not substantially better than a well set-up conventional suspension system, but it takes all of the guess work out of getting the best performance from your forks and shock. The semi-active suspension on the new Caponord is more advanced than any other system on the market. The Ducati and BMW systems only adjust compression and rebound on the move whereas the Aprilia system also changes preload. This isn't for ultimate performance but for comfort and ride quality. The end result is really impressive, amplified further with a pillion or luggage, bumps and imperfections almost disappear. It's a really impressive system, one of the best on the market, if not THE best. When you up the pace, the sporty handling is impressive, too. It's possibly not as sharp as Ducati's Multistrada, but still more than adequate with excellent ABS-assisted brakes and traction control.So, for the 95% these systems are foolproof and safer. And no, I'm not in that 95% either but I'm willing to give it a try.
Quote from: Bixxer Bob on July 27, 2015, 03:49:18 PM
To quote my 1200GS-owning friend's wife, "Stop effing with the suspension settings, my bits are jiggling"..... :icon_redface:
That seems like a good reason to own one.
BT
Rather than me trot out a long winded post about when you buy an aftermarket shock you have to stipulate your weight because it will need a different spring if your overweight or ride two up and if you need to go up 2 spring spec's then you you'll also need the shock revalved to cope with such(like I have),all I can suggest is you go away and do your home work and then you'll realise how daft the PR stuff that gets put out.
You wouldn't go into a shop and be told one pair of trousers fits all and shocks are no different.
Having owned my K since 09 and pay over £300 a year for an extended warranty because these bike's are a financial hand grenade I's say to anyone looking at this stuff,if your in the market to buy a bike and unload it when the warranty runs out then the only thing you have to worry about is the quality of the suspension,if your in it for the long term then I'd avoid such like the plague unless you have deep pockets.
Rather ironic with this thread when I see Triumph are saying that the next Explorer will comes with WP suspension so clearly someone realised quality counts.
What I am guilty of and didn't realise until a conversation I had today these latest bikes that have combined fuel map and suspension settings doing nothing for chain tension,and as I had pointed out to me today if your going to be changing settings you will also need to check you chain tension baring in mind the latest systems are rising rate :icon_eek:
What is so frustrating get these PR people behind closed doors and off the record they'll tell you a totally different story,because all the latest gizmos are about selling bikes and not what is best :icon_evil:
Quote from: Chris Canning on July 29, 2015, 02:37:39 PM
because all the latest gizmos are about selling bikes and not what is best :icon_evil:
The bottom line is always the bottom line.
A great exchange of views and, whilst being poles apart, each have their own merit. :thumbsup
Bix
Look at MotoGP/WSB/Motocross or any other bike sport do you see anyone using electric suspension!! exactly and the reason for that in the greater scheme of the suspension world the latest offerings are on par with what the model T Ford is to the evolution of the car it's got miles to go and even then I've no idea how they will solve the spring issue.
Non which has anything to do with 'What the hell are we going to do with these bikes when there 6/7 years down the food chain chain :icon_scratch:,one of the advantages of running 4 different bikes you see what's on the other side of the fence,what is they say 'Be careful what you wish for'
As to comparing the realities of cars to bikes ho hum :icon_biggrin: brings BMW WSB to mind,they roll up with a 30 million budget and an army of software guys from the car world after 3 years they gave in,brought David Tardozzi who got rid of all e'm and brought in his bike guys from Italy and hey presto.
Quote from: Bixxer Bob on July 29, 2015, 04:53:33 PM
A great exchange of views and, whilst being poles apart, each have their own merit. :thumbsup
:iagree Life would be very boring if we all agreed on everything. Except everyone knows that Shinko tyres and Wal Mart oil are the best to use on/in your motorcycle..... :ImaPoser
All this on whether or not esa is any good! Can't wait to see what you blokes make of the forthcoming dct on the africa twin. The punch up is going to be epic.
Quote from: nickcalne on July 30, 2015, 04:33:04 PM
All this on whether or not esa is any good! Can't wait to see what you blokes make of the forthcoming dct on the africa twin. The punch up is going to be epic.
Ah yes, but will it make a nice cuppa tea?? :icon_wink:
Quote from: nickcalne on July 30, 2015, 04:33:04 PM
..... The punch up is going to be epic.
Considering it's Chris and Howie we are talking about, I thought it had been pretty tame up till now :augie
Quote from: Bixxer Bob on July 30, 2015, 07:24:20 PM
Considering it's Chris and Howie we are talking about, I thought it had been pretty tame up till now :augie
I just wonder why Chris isn't still riding a T110? Or maybe those new fangled Carburettor things are too complicated and too expensive to service. :^_^
What would air suspension do in a situation of variables?
As far as replacing a spring?
Works fine on my mountain bike. Can't imagine why it hasn't been adopted on motorbikes.
Quote from: nickcalne on July 31, 2015, 05:22:38 PM
Works fine on my mountain bike. Can't imagine why it hasn't been adopted on motorbikes.
what do you suppose is in the remote reservoir on a steamer ? :augie
it's an air bladder that you pump up with nitrogen to 140 psi , so basically you have an air shock :nod
I meant as a replacement for the spring entirely.
Quote from: Mustang on July 31, 2015, 05:36:00 PM
what do you suppose is in the remote reservoir on a steamer ? :augie
In mine?.... porridge!
Quote from: motoOzarks on July 31, 2015, 05:53:11 PM
I meant as a replacement for the spring entirely.
Honda did it way back when on a cb900
(http://p1.bikepics.com/2005/01/30/bikepics-282446-full.jpg)
Quote from: Mustang on July 31, 2015, 06:07:41 PM
Honda did it way back when on a cb900
Now THAT was a bike!! Honda answering a whole bunch of questions that nobody was asking. :icon_wink:
That was a bike to die for on.
Typically for bikes of that era, the frame wasn't quite man enough for the motor... loadsa fun just the same - mine was black :icon_biggrin:
Quote from: JayDub on July 31, 2015, 07:57:24 PM
loadsa fun just the same - mine was black :icon_biggrin:
How did you like the dual range tranny?
I wasn't aware of its existence :icon_eek:
Was it just on the later model? Or custom - Mine was a 1979.
Midrange power was good
(http://www.gcksv.com/gfx/tag/ThreadDirection.jpg)
back to our regular programming...............
:icon_redface: .... Nicks fault!
Quote from: motoOzarks on July 31, 2015, 05:17:23 PM
What would air suspension do in a situation of variables?
As far as replacing a spring?
Adds a whole lot of new variables.
Air is actually a very good spring. In a closed system it is a natural rising rate spring. Most people forget that your forks are all air assisted because of the air gap on top of the oil. Alter the oil level and you also alter the air assistance.
Quote from: blacktiger on July 31, 2015, 10:06:12 PM
Adds a whole lot of new variables.
Air is actually a very good spring. In a closed system it is a natural rising rate spring. Most people forget that your forks are all air assisted because of the air gap on top of the oil. Alter the oil level and you also alter the air assistance.
:nod that's why the dirt jockeys have valves on the top of their fork tubes, they just pump them up or let it out to suit the going.
Suzuki 600F had those..... air valves I mean :nod
Quote from: Mustang on July 31, 2015, 05:36:00 PM
what do you suppose is in the remote reservoir on a steamer ? :augie
Rust?
Best thing about the mountain bike shocks is changing the settings with a pump. So easy.
So what we are agreed on is that "what are Triumph thinking" is about what they can do to keep their product at the sharp end of technology so that people will be interested in buying....... Whether or not said technology is 'good' or 'less good'.
Now we must wait to see what appears in the 2016 or 2017 models.