Just read in the new MCN that Motion Pro is now offering JIS bits for screwdriver handles. Should be easier to find (and less $) than the Vessel screwdrivers.
here: https://www.dirtbikexpress.co.uk/workshop__and__tools/motocross_tools/motocross_t-handle_tools/motion_pro_t-handle_bit_driver_with_phillips_bits (https://www.dirtbikexpress.co.uk/workshop__and__tools/motocross_tools/motocross_t-handle_tools/motion_pro_t-handle_bit_driver_with_phillips_bits).
I must admit I was never fully aware of the difference between JIS and Phillips till this thread but always wondered why the latter drivers never seemed to fit properly.
So, if we have Philips and JIS, - where does Pozidrive come into it? what is the physical difference between JIS & Philips (and JIS & Pozidrive come to that) :icon_scratch:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_screw_drives#JIS_B_1012
Pozidriv drivers definitely ruin JIS screws.........
I've never heard of 'JIS'... yet it seems I must have been using them for the last 35+ yrs :icon_redface: but then I always make sure a screwdriver is a solid tight fit before putting any pressure on. I usually learn from my mistakes :icon_study:
Any chew-ups are mostly caused when its been over-tightened and/or a lack of copper grease.
Quote from: JayDub on October 25, 2015, 03:08:00 PM
I've never heard of 'JIS'... yet it seems I must have been using them for the last 35+ yrs :icon_redface: but then I always make sure a screwdriver is a solid tight fit before putting any pressure on. I usually learn from my mistakes :icon_study:
Any chew-ups are mostly caused when its been over-tightened and/or a lack of copper grease.
JIS - Japanese Industry Standard
Yea, the Japanese even made the our stock brakes. They obviously went down a different path than the IFI (International Fastener Institute). I will give them one thing they look like the JIS ones have a better 'bite'.
(http://www.cash-5.com/pics/jis.png)
I'll take a HEX or Torx over Phillips head any day.
Just ordered some of these: http://www.onlyqualitytools.com/catalog/Vessel/Double-Ended_Power_Bits.html (http://www.onlyqualitytools.com/catalog/Vessel/Double-Ended_Power_Bits.html) which are a lot cheaper than the full screwdrivers. They are said to be dual JIS / Phillips so assume they are the former as they will also fit the latter according to the Vessel website.
That tool place is unusual in charging low carriage so have bookmarked it for the future. We'll see what the bits are like when they arrive......
Quote from: JoeDirt on October 26, 2015, 12:28:35 AM
I'll take a HEX or Torx over Phillips head any day.
:iagree
Why did Triumph use a screwdriver type fixing in the first place? And why torx too? Surely cheaper easier simpler for all to go hex throughout? Also why so many materials and styles on a typical bike?
Quote from: NickVladivostock on October 26, 2015, 10:55:49 PM
Why did Triumph use a screwdriver type fixing in the first place? And why torx too? Surely cheaper easier simpler for all to go hex throughout? Also why so many materials and styles on a typical bike?
I have worked in companies that use a lot of fasteners. I have even spec'ed out new screws and what-not. The thinking always is... if it isn't broke don't fix it. It is easy to "grandfather" things out of a company over time without applying resources/time/money to change all of their fasteners to the latest style. Triumph in this case has been around for a long time and almost wasn't around in the 70's. I hope and like to think, it has to with spending engineering resources on new bikes instead of these "service issues". I say service issues, because the engineers and the managers see it such.
Just my opinion.
I spose its just to steer the half hearted DIY'ers toward the dealers Nick.
This thread needs some nuts
Why? They seem to be screwing it up nicely without. :ImaPoser
Quote from: JoeDirt on October 26, 2015, 11:12:01 PM
Triumph in this case has been around for a long time and almost wasn't around in the 70's. I hope and like to think, it has to with spending engineering resources on new bikes instead of these "service issues". I say service issues, because the engineers and the managers see it such.
Just my opinion.
But the current Triumph has nothing in common with the Meriden company other than the name. All the bikes have been designed from the ground up in the last 20 years or so.
Quote from: iansoady on October 26, 2015, 11:21:55 AM
Just ordered some of these: http://www.onlyqualitytools.com/catalog/Vessel/Double-Ended_Power_Bits.html (http://www.onlyqualitytools.com/catalog/Vessel/Double-Ended_Power_Bits.html) which are a lot cheaper than the full screwdrivers. They are said to be dual JIS / Phillips so assume they are the former as they will also fit the latter according to the Vessel website.
That tool place is unusual in charging low carriage so have bookmarked it for the future. We'll see what the bits are like when they arrive......
These arrived this morning after ordering them yesterday and I'm very pleased. I've tried them on a couple of Honda screws and they fit beautifully.
Although why they invented another "standard" when Phillips already existed and is an ISO standard is another question entirely.
the #1 reason fasteners get the type of drive head they do is for ease of assembly on the production lines ,
think air driven tools ,and ease of one handed fastening :nod
you sometimes only have moments to fasten something at your work station before the product moves on down the line .....................
notice in the video that the car only stops moving during break time .
http://youtu.be/GHtr9sq7ZbA
True but you have to remember that they bought in the brake system (and clutch hydraulics) and electrics from Japanese manufactures. Arguably a shrewd decision that gave them a great proven basis for concentrating on what they knew they could do well themselves. At that time they probably didn't have the sort of clout they have now to dictate detailed design specs without a severe cost penalty
absolutely :iagree
even in the dodge video you can see pre assembled parts or assemblies going on that are usually sourced already assembled
There have just been a couple of programmes on BBC about the MINI plant in Cowley. Apart from the moronic presenters, it was very interesting and showed just how much of a modern car is just "press and click". May be available to our colonial friends on iplayer or something? http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p033zflq
I was particularly interested as I designed the paint control system for the Rover 800 at that plant (dates me somewhat) as well as the build control system for the Rover 200 at Longbridge. Much has changed but much remains the same.
:iagree What hasn't remained the same is the personal engagement and I believe genuine passion for what the people at the Hinksey factory do. Having toured on an open day and sat around with quite a few later over a beer and burger, I was impressed with what Mr Bloor and his team have done. I'm not saying the bikes are the greatest thing on the planet blindly but having spent a lot of time going around factories worldwide, I've never experienced such an atmosphere :thumbsup
I can also see me getting into trouble for dragging things off course again :pottytrain2
Quote from: iansoady on October 27, 2015, 03:24:01 PM
But the current Triumph has nothing in common with the Meriden company other than the name. All the bikes have been designed from the ground up in the last 20 years or so.
My point exactly... bikes... not fasteners. All companies... new and old.
~JoeDirt
Quote from: Sin_Tiger on October 27, 2015, 06:15:45 PM
I can also see me getting into trouble for dragging things off course again :pottytrain2
How did I get on this steamer thread... :rock
:ImaPoser(http://cdn1.sbnation.com/imported_assets/366147/trainwreck2.jpg)
I think design detail matters and contributes a lot to the aesthetics / quality of a product. My own experience of controlling design projects is that weaker designers tend to be inconsistent and trash about speccing this and that. You have to control what happens. Maybe triumph just weren't that good / thorough in the early days? Certainly there are some other tell tale clues that their design skills were ...um emerging on the steamer. Looking at the new xcx the fasteners look more consistent. They mostly seem to be hex head and stainless.
I also think that if you are designing an 'adventure bike' some element of making it easier to fix in the field with limited tools should be on your agenda. In such a setting would you ever choose a screwdriver over a set of allen keys?
Quote from: NickVladivostock on October 28, 2015, 09:30:47 AM
I also think that if you are designing an 'adventure bike' some element of making it easier to fix in the field with limited tools should be on your agenda. In such a setting would you ever choose a screwdriver over a set of allen keys?
Ah yes, but how many are used 'in the field'..............??
If the answer is more than none, then it matters.
Quote from: NickVladivostock on October 28, 2015, 09:07:23 PM
If the answer is more than none, then it matters.
Yes indeed.
How the people managed who rode old British bikes on adventure trips, the bikes requiring at least two different sets of spanners, is amazing. Yes, I know, the bikes never broke down :icon_wink: :icon_wink:
Real old British bikes just needed one set. I think you're referring to those new-fangled Triumphs and Nortons that mixed BSF/W and UNF/C......
Quote from: iansoady on October 29, 2015, 12:26:47 PM
I think you're referring to those new-fangled Triumphs and Nortons that mixed BSF/W and UNF/C......
Yes. I was thinking about the '67 N15CS mongrel and '71 Commando I once had. Needless to say they never made any 'adventure' trips. The only adventures were from the garage/carport/shed to the driveway and back. :ImaPoser
What? There were bikes with a mixture of fastener systems? No wonder the British bike industry was doomed.
Not so much a further nail in the coffin of a dying industry, more a bsf/w threaded bolt with a rounded off philips head!
The 850 Commando I had for 20 years had a number of studs / bolts etc holding the cylinder head on. These were all UNF except the one down at the back under the carbs which was 3/8" Cycle and was impossible to tighten unless you'd made your own specially cranked and thinned spanner. Of course, Cycle being 26 tpi and UNF 24 it was fairly easy to get the wrong nut on (eg from the cylinder base) and just think it was a bit tight till the thread was ruined.
Then you had to somehow get the nut off, remove the head again and fit a new stud.......
Not that I'd ever do such a thing of course.
Quote from: iansoady on October 30, 2015, 04:45:59 PM
These were all UNF except the one down at the back under the carbs which was 3/8" Cycle and was impossible to tighten unless you'd made your own specially cranked and thinned spanner. Of course, Cycle being 26 tpi and UNF 24 it was fairly easy to get the wrong nut on (eg from the cylinder base) and just think it was a bit tight till the thread was ruined
As others have said before: "What were they thinking??? :icon_scratch:"
I have to confess that faffing around with different spanners (along with all of their other idiosyncrasies.... pre-unit transmission etc.) contributed to the (easy) decision to let the Nortons go. The fact that I needed the dosh for a down payment on a house was irrelevant, of course. :augie