2-3k RPM surging/hunting

[fraserdog]

I know this is an age old problem apparently but I bought my 02 Tiger last October and what with the weather and other commitments I've only ridden it a handful of times and it has horrible surging/hunting when just of the throttle at 2-3k rpm,i had the tank off today to take out the K&N filter the previous owner fitted and put it back to stock hoping this might help a bit but no.I bought an o2 eliminator off a chap on the forum a few months back and thought I'd try that but the plug was the wrong shape to fit my loom so that was that.I have tunecu on my laptop and a lead to connect to the bike but I have not a clue how to download a map let alone load one to the bike.Could my local friendly Triumph dealer do it or is there someone on here that can point me in the right direction as what I can do because it's ruining the ride of the bike that much for me that I fear it'll be heading for the classifieds pretty soon if I can't get it sorted.

[Chris Canning]

I'm not aware or maybe I am now that there's more than one 02 plug is yours like this.

[fraserdog]

That's what I should have had but the one I've bought looks more like a female side of a plug/socket.I've just ordered one off ebay for £12,got to be worth a shot to try and get rid of the surging,i'm not really concerned about losing power at high revs as I ride sedately,i just want a bike I can ride in town smoothly without having to keep it in too lower gear to keep the revs up to stop the surging.

[Bixxer Bob]

Ok, so you want to stop the surging. Well, you'll need to lower you sights a bit, you can reduce it, but completely getting rid is a tall order.  Some Tigers run fine, but most don't. For starters, assuming your O2 sensor is working properly, bypassing it simply locks the ECU in whatever rubbish condition it was in when you fitted it.  Not the fix you were hoping for eh?

So lets keep this simple; first, get it running the best it can. Then ride it a while and see if it gets better / worse.  If worse, fix it again and THEN bypass the O2 sensor. The reasoning behind this is I completely reset mine on Thurs and its running better than it has for ages BUT my O2 sensor isn't working at the moment. Likewise, Chris didn't like the way his ran after a remap, but now the O2 sensor and the ECU have trimmed it back, he's much happier.

Assuming your valve clearances are ok, your throttle bodies are balanced, you IACV is working correctly and you have no air leaks on either the IACV hoses or the barometric sensor hose, including the grommet where the elbow goes into the airbox, the next step is to get TuneECU working.  Once you have a connection, save your ECU map to your computer then upload a fresh map making sure it's the right one for your bike.  Start the bike and let it warm up. Read how to do an "Adaptation" in the 'how to's' and do it, several times if need be.  Finally, reset your TPS.  You are now starting from a clean sheet.

Ride the bike for a few days and keep an eye on it. If it runs well but gets better great, if the reverse, reset it again then fit the O2 bypass.

[iansoady]

Agree with all the above, but IMO the fundamental problem is that when the target A/F ratio in the map is 14.5:1 (stoichometric) the ECU constantly monitors the output of the O2 sensor and hunts as it tries to adjust the mixture to suit (closed loop operation). If you look at the standard map you'll find that it's at that value between 2,000 and 3,000 rpm......

I fixed mine by changing the map so the A/F ratio was never at 14.5 (always 14 or less IIRC) so was in "open loop" mode.

Standard tune:



My amended version (based on one from Ken Macdonald (not sure of the name???)):



Using this one my bike was a smooth as silk.

[Chris Canning]

The fundamental problem is it's fuel injection have you had a fuel injected bike before,I know of another thread on the net along the same lines as this where the guy had always had carb'd bikes the bike he had bought was his first fuel injected one and he is not a happy camper,all 4 of my bike's hunt in traffic,assuming your bike is running as it should it'll still hunt!!! that's fuel injection for you, there are two solutions either fit a power commander or learn to stop feathering the throttle which folk have been used to on carb'd bikes,the trick with all of them even with a Rexxer map or PC fitted is either be on or off the throttle.

Fit the 02 plug before you do anything,it will have an effect on the hunting,is it a cure??,I have to say mine has always been crap in town,the trick to filtering in traffic is find a gear and either on or off the throttle.

[fraserdog]

Cheers for all the input guys,the fundamental problem is I'm rubbish with pc's,i'm a toolmaker by trade and have been a mechanical engineer in one shape or form all my working life.I can have the engine in bits and back together again no problem but when threre's talking of downloading and uploading maps I'm totally lost unless there is an idiots step by step guide somewhere? Your right Chris this is my first fuel injected bike,for the past 37 years of bike riding it's always been carbs,i have an Africa Twin beside the Tiger in the garage and you pull the choke,hit the starter and away she goes and running like a swiss watch,no flatspots,no hesitation through town,nothing but I was after a bit more oomph hence the Tiger.I've got to have the tank off again to fit the o2 plug so i'll check the throttle body balance but there was a £500+ service bill about 1k miles ago so I would have thought it was done then.I'm beginning to think the bike is perhaps not for me as I just want to turn the key,start the engine and ride off into the sunset without having to worry about surging etc etc at low revs,loading and downloading maps etc etc.It would be a shame because out on the open road it goes like good'n.

[Chris Canning]

Before my 3 Tigers I/we had two Africa twins a very early one and a late brand new,but the reality with fuel injection you can run away from it but unless you want to live in a cave you'll have to confront it at some time.

I know Bixxer and Ian do their thing on here,but I've just gone to a dealer and had a map blown in,now in fairness it's not that simple which ever dealer I have used I've had e'm jump through hoops first to make sure they knew what they were doing,Bixxer had a bad experience with a dealer but I've used 4 different ones and they passed their interview  :icon_wink: and got the job done.

I'm not sure what you mean by wanting to just put a key in it,their isn't another Tiger out there that's had the pasting mine has,to this day remember passing another Tiger owner going into Calais on our 1000 miler and blew past him and he looked at us aghast and I can remember thinking 'Blimey mate we've been riding at this pace for 800 miles!! and it still runs like a Swiss watch with the odd blip that's not worth mentioning,just put the key in and it starts bang on the button.

But just like the guy on the XT660 site who came from a Fazer thou he's huffing and puffing like some luddite from the stone ages,if you don't want to change the bike assuming it's running Ok,adapt your style of riding you must have done already because if you don't use the rear brake before the front so the bike squats you'll get all this front end dive nonsense.

What I forgot to say anyone with an early 955 reading this the connectors for fitting the 02 plug is behind the engine just above the sprocket cover there's no need to lift the tank.

[NKL]

The fundamental problem is it's fuel injection have you had a fuel injected bike before,I know of another thread on the net along the same lines as this where the guy had always had carb'd bikes the bike he had bought was his first fuel injected one and he is not a happy camper,all 4 of my bike's hunt in traffic,assuming your bike is running as it should it'll still hunt!!! that's fuel injection for you, there are two solutions either fit a power commander or learn to stop feathering the throttle which folk have been used to on carb'd bikes,the trick with all of them even with a Rexxer map or PC fitted is either be on or off the throttle.

Fit the 02 plug before you do anything,it will have an effect on the hunting,is it a cure??,I have to say mine has always been crap in town,the trick to filtering in traffic is find a gear and either on or off the throttle.

No it's not, my 955 never hunted as you say and nor does my 990 Adventure.

[Chris Canning]

The fundamental problem is it's fuel injection have you had a fuel injected bike before,I know of another thread on the net along the same lines as this where the guy had always had carb'd bikes the bike he had bought was his first fuel injected one and he is not a happy camper,all 4 of my bike's hunt in traffic,assuming your bike is running as it should it'll still hunt!!! that's fuel injection for you, there are two solutions either fit a power commander or learn to stop feathering the throttle which folk have been used to on carb'd bikes,the trick with all of them even with a Rexxer map or PC fitted is either be on or off the throttle.

Fit the 02 plug before you do anything,it will have an effect on the hunting,is it a cure??,I have to say mine has always been crap in town,the trick to filtering in traffic is find a gear and either on or off the throttle.

No it's not, my 955 never hunted as you say and nor does my 990 Adventure.

Very funny the 990 was the worse of the lot  out of the frying pan into the fire e'h  :icon_wink:

If we want to be pedantic about It I can make any of mine hunt if I try hard enough but I haven't ridden a carb'd bike in 14 years and one learns to adabt and feathering a throttle on a fuel injected bike is something you learn not to do,and just like when you have tooth ache your have to learn not to poke it 

[NKL]

The 990 is known for a snatchy throttle on the transition from closed to open, mine was no where near as bad as my mates but with a bit of playing with Tune ECU and its sorted, as for the hunting effect at constant throttle, it has never done it.

I'm just saying it isn't a trait of injection, it's the effect of all the emissions crap that goes with it, it doesn't have to do it, it can be dialled out with a bit of effort.

[Chris Canning]

The 990 is known for a snatchy throttle on the transition from closed to open, mine was no where near as bad as my mates but with a bit of playing with Tune ECU and its sorted, as for the hunting effect at constant throttle, it has never done it.

I'm just saying it isn't a trait of injection, it's the effect of all the emissions crap that goes with it, it doesn't have to do it, it can be dialled out with a bit of effort.

I said that on the original post,with my 1100s and XT a PC sorted it with my K1200 a Rexxer map did the same job,which doesn't get us away from stock fuel injected bikes are crap,well crap's a bit strong leave a lot to be desired!!,and anyone that's has ridden the last of the carb R1's or R6's could put up a good case of not going fuel injection.

The plus side leave a bike with carbs standing for a year it'll gummed up float bowels and blocked jets,good old fuel injection press the button and boom away they go,it's called progress I think 

[Bixxer Bob]

I've sorted the surging many times on mine, but sooner or later it always slips back,( even after changing the map to stop closed loop Jason).   

I mainly just live with it now as it's not always doing it badly enough to need some action.  I kind of look at it this way; there are Girly riders who have never had a problem, and there are others that never solved it either.  In the same way, Mark at BSD said after working on my 'Bird it was one of the smoothest he'd worked on / ridden but some Blackbirds he'd had in remained snatchy and difficult even after he'd spend hours more on them than he billed for.

Some bikes are just different.

[fraserdog]

o2 Eliminator arrived yesterday so off with the tank today and fitted it.Took it for a spin and it's heaps better regarding the surging,i'm not saying it's 100% gone but it's loads better and feels like a different machine in town now.

[metalguru]

Believe me the cure is down to a bit of map adjustment, I spent a lot of valuable drinking time pouring over numbers in boxes and road testing until I totally eliminated the surging. I left my O2 sensor connected and working to attain 50MPG (UK) at 90mph. It can be a useful part of the sensors.
I must admit it took me quite a time to understand what does what with TuneEcu but once understood it is a valuable tool. There are very good instructions on how to work TuneEcu  on the website.

If you get really stuck, read the website instructions and give me a shout and I can send you a map to compare which will show the values to change.