England and the EU

[nickjtc]

so now it's a matter of negotiating a painless divorce - let's see how that goes ?????

Painless divorce............ isn't that an oxymoron. 

Been there twice, so have a little knowledge. :icon_wink:

[thebiglad]

Painless divorce............ isn't that an oxymoron. 

Been there twice, so have a little knowledge. :icon_wink:

Absolutely Nick, that was me attempting irony 

[Spud Murphy]

I am a Brit, living in France for the last 14 years or so, so feel I have a foot in both camps. The general consensus over here in France is utter bewilderment that Britain (or a small percentage of it) has voted to leave the EU.

I believe that this was brought about mainly due to the level of incompetence and apathy of the remain campaigners and the complete lack - on behalf of the BREXIT people -  of a desire to want to know the REAL benefits of the EU.

Anyway, it appears that the job is done, so now it's a matter of negotiating a painless divorce - let's see how that goes ?????

bit of a sweeping statement re "Brexit" people perhaps some of us weighted up the pro's and cons and felt the imbalance was to great and perhaps some of us did not want to be in a federal Europe or a Europe that is not working  and I think it was a majority vote to leave as well 

cheers Spud 

[thebiglad]

It wasn't a massive majority though was it? Brexit 50.4% & Remain 49.6% wasn't it?

In any event, almost 50% of the voting public are now being ruled by just over 50% - recipe for peace and tranquility? I think not.

I also wonder if it'll ever happen.

[Spud Murphy]

It wasn't a massive majority though was it? Brexit 50.4% & Remain 49.6% wasn't it?

In any event, almost 50% of the voting public are now being ruled by just over 50% - recipe for peace and tranquility? I think not.

I also wonder if it'll ever happen.
[/quote

]it was a majority vote, that's called democracy is it not,, so do you not heed the majority because you do not think there was a big enough differential ?  or do you just ignore a result because you didn't like the answer.  How many labour supporter's didn't like the Conservative getting in last time did we have a call for a re election on the grounds that the differential in the voting was not big enough and the fact a lot of the country was being lead by a Conservative party even though they are labour supporters ?

cheers Spud 

cheers Spud   

[thebiglad]

It wasn't a massive majority though was it? Brexit 50.4% & Remain 49.6% wasn't it?

In any event, almost 50% of the voting public are now being ruled by just over 50% - recipe for peace and tranquility? I think not.

I also wonder if it'll ever happen.
[/quote

]it was a majority vote, that's called democracy is it not,, so do you not heed the majority because you do not think there was a big enough differential ?  or do you just ignore a result because you didn't like the answer.  How many labour supporter's didn't like the Conservative getting in last time did we have a call for a re election on the grounds that the differential in the voting was not big enough and the fact a lot of the country was being lead by a Conservative party even though they are labour supporters ?

cheers Spud 

cheers Spud

Mate seriously if you believe this move is the best for the UK then good luck to you. I think you are being a bit unnecessarily aggressive with me but hey-ho that's life. I won't have to live with the consequences. I'm outta here.

[Ossian]

BL, my daughter has lived in France for quite a few years now, and she loves it there. However her opinion is that as things stand, the UK is quite right to vote to leave. She loves France, but is totally pissed off with the way it is run. The elite in France are adept at making sure that the lower orders do not get any real say in things, and they are well connected throughout the European bureaucracy to make sure things stay that way throughout.
People argue that we should stay in and make changes from within. Fat chance.

[Spud Murphy]

Not being aggressive at all, just stating my point after being what I would consider insulted....

and the complete lack - on behalf of the BREXIT people -  of a desire to want to know the REAL benefits of the EU. 

as I said a sweeping statement, how do you know what research I or any other person did or did not do to come to their conclusion to vote for a Brexit ?

If your happy in France I am really pleased for you, and if your happy to being in the EU well good on ya again, and if we end up parking our Tigers next to each other somewhere in France whilst on our travels I'll get the first one in of what ever your favourite tipple is 

Me personally I see no future for the EU,   

cheers Spud 

[Nick Calne]

I didn't vote in the referendum as I couldn't really find enough actual facts to decide the matter. As a neutral there are a few things that really stood out:

- no independently verifable evidence for either argument
- too much lying by both sides, particularly on the right.
- No one gives a hoot about those working class people who are genuinely disadvantaged by European immigration (and some really, really are)
- People have an opinion based on their outlook, not evidence
- Many left wing people can't accept democracy when it doesn't go in their favour... agree or you are a racist, ignorant bigot etc, demand another election etc
- You can't change the EU and it is not a great institution. My word they are arrogant.

But the thing that really got me was the issue really divided people who would otherwise be friends... after all, what really has changed? And what is really is going to change? (Clue - not much, in the short term at least) So worth worrying about?

My view on Europe? - we should ride it.

[threepot]

TBL,maybe you should consider reasons why we voted out? Are you totally happy with the way the EU is run? And more importantly I think,what do you think Europe will be like,say in 50yrs time? Difficult times ahead I think for future generations,and I don't mean financially. This is worth watching. He puts things into context in the first 3-4 mins I feel.

https://youtu.be/2ZdqAjDhVpo

[cbd]

I voted out.  EEC is one thing EU parliment is another. No thanks

[thebiglad]

TBL,maybe you should consider reasons why we voted out? Are you totally happy with the way the EU is run? And more importantly I think,what do you think Europe will be like,say in 50yrs time? Difficult times ahead I think for future generations,and I don't mean financially. This is worth watching. He puts things into context in the first 3-4 mins I feel.

https://youtu.be/2ZdqAjDhVpo

What an excellent speech, what an excellent clarity of thought !!!!!!

To answer your question 3pot, I'm not happy how the EU is run and how money is wasted in massive amounts. But what about the UK government and the money it has wasted, for example on the NHS Information Technology project that cost the UK taxpayers £8 billion and then was scrapped. And in all Western countries to one degree or another this happens. The difference is that imo, we don't need a European Parliament that, due to historical reasons, moves it's base EVERY WEEK. Hundreds are artics move the Parliament every week between Strasbourg and Bruxelles.

So as you can see I am aware of at least some of the daftness of the EU, I just don't think that is a good enough reason to "throw the baby out with the bath water".

You ask where I imagine Europe with be in 50 years time - well how impossible is that to answer !!! Only 1 year ago no-one imagined the UK breaking away from Europe so quite honestly I doubt anyone with any common sensewill venture an opinion on that? Will we all be speaking Farsi or Russian - who knows?

What I believe is that it is important to study history as that can give indicators to the future. Forget the past at your peril.

I believe that the EU has given Western Europe the longest period of peace in recent in history. Peace to build economies, technologies, medicine, education etc. Without peace everything, people, money, assets are all lost.

It's easy for people born in the 50's and onwards to forget the cost of wars, because in Western Europe we haven't had MAJOR conflict.

So to summarise, I believe in a European Union, but the version we have today will need a good shaking up. And it is we the people that need to do the shaking.

[threepot]

As in a 'good shaking up',you mean reforming? Well,I think we've had enough of waiting? :icon_wink:

[threepot]

Re trade with the EU,and ID like someone to authenticate the accuracy of this graph,but it seems to me,the rest of the EU seems to benefit from us,more than we do from them?

Also,check out the 'kalergi plan'. The 'higher echelons' support it!

[Spud Murphy]

I think some of us know all to well the cost of war, I served in the Falklands, my father left Ireland in 39 and joined the British Army, I had an uncle in the SOE, brother and sisters who served in the military also and I've just showed your comments to my mate sat next to me who served in Bosnia amongst other places.

People forget about Nato why do we need a EU army? perhaps they may be there to combat the growing unease in the EU about the EU, the growth of the right wing in German and the Left in France. Yes please heed history.
 

Yes our Government makes stupid mistakes but it's our Government not someone else's, and yes the EU changes cities just to vote cost 100 million pounds a year but will not change and they are never going to change, all they had to do was give Cameron something to charm the people of the UK but instead they told him to go away and he came back and made the statement about securing changes and a new reformed EU which later he had to admit was only a bunch of proposals put on the table

They may well have to change now because with out our £160 million a week input they may well go under as they are already starting to admit, so there may come a new reformed EU because we stuck our head above the parapet and forced the issue.

What no who is a remainer has ever been able to tell me is "what are the EU going to do about Greece"?  the vast unemployment in Spain, Portugal and other countries. What will the EU do about the collapsing banking system in Italy ? I could go on but of course being a "brexit" voter I never wanted to know or indeed looked at the possible benefits of being in the EU or indeed the negatives   

The Irish Government will now be tackling the EU head on about it's own tax affairs with regards to Apple

You are right mate we should look to history and not forget it, no we have not had a direct conflict in what most people consider Europe, unless you forget about the break up of Yugoslavia and Bosnia, Kosovo no we just fight our proxy wars in place like Iraq and Afgan which are now coming back to haunt Europe and I wonder how Europe is going to deal with that ?

As far as I am concerned we are leaving a dysfunctional family, who know they are dysfunctional and will not do anything about it, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing everyday expecting a different outcome.

There's a big wide world out there and our history dictates we did rather well sending our merchant navy out into it to trade with the rest of the world

As Churchill said "we are a sea faring nation who should look to the sea"

What was wrong with the "Common market" ?  what makes us think a "United States of Europe" could ever exit it has been tried several times in the past

just my ramblings on a Sunday morning

Cheers Spud