Regarding Charging System Failures

[Stretch]

Sounds like you have a mission .......

Dang right... I have a trip coming up in three weeks... a thousand miles each way.  I'm looking to kick this problem square in the ass.

[Stretch]

More good info, this time on a Honda VFR forum.  VFR's also use very similar charging systems, with the exception of a black wire (battery monitor feed to the newer VFR Regulator / Rectifiers) that adjusts RR output based on the battery voltage sensed through this wire.  Tigers have no such animal, so just ignore comments about that (on pages 2 & 3).

http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/inde ... 29975&st=0

[Nimrod11]

When you guys talk about charging problems, what exactly do you mean? Does it die completely or just doesn't take extra load?

I ask because I mounted a couple of auxiliary lights this weekend - simple 55W each, just helps to look like a christmas tree so people see you coming. I am not sure yet, but it seems to me that the bike just doesn't manage this extra load.

I did do a lot of reading before I installed them and I believe that an extra 10A should be OK for the Tiger. However, when I stopped at a shop, after riding for some 45 minutes in town (traffic lights and such), the motor wouldn't re-start. After 30 minutes or so, as expected, I managed to start OK. I also had a couple of weird motor cuts while coming to a stop at traffic lights. Haven't figured that out yet but could be low battery charge.

Just for info, I just got my new (to me) Tiger and don't yet have a voltage meter on it.

Thanks all for the posts. Great topic!

[Mustang]

2 added lights at 55watts each is a BIG load on the poor ol tiggers system .
Your two headlights plus 2 additional lights alone is at the minimum 220 watts just for lights .  :shock:

If the problems started after adding the additional lights , I would remove them and also would confirm with a voltmeter at the battery terminals when running just what your voltage output is

[Bixxer Bob]

On the other charging post I mentioned my 'Bird charging probs.  Well the 'Bird has it's reg/rec on the side of the subframe, behind plastic trim, just under the rider's left thigh BUT there's a good flow of air in that region, and the subframe forms a heat sink of sorts.  Makes all the difference.  I think my 'Bird charge probs were due to bad connectors frying the cables.

[Bixxer Bob]

The wiring diagram gives you an idea:



And it's behind the pastic,  about below where the chrome blob is in this photo:



If you look closely, you can see the vent just behind the reg where the air exits.

[Stretch]

Bob, that's what I've been gathering from my last couple days of reading about this sort of thing...  

The wires are too small and too long (creating internal resistance, which can cook connectors and kill components).

The Regulator / Rectifier, which generates heat by dumping excess voltage to ground, is tucked into a small unventilated space.

The body of the RR itself is rarely properly grounded to the frame of the bike where it is mounted (hard to get a good connection through paint), and there should also be a large-gauge ground wire from the frame to the engine, and from the engine to the Negative battery terminal.

There is no heat sink value from the factory mount, as it is just a couple of tabs sticking out from the frame.

Interesting reading:  http://www.triumphrat.net/daytona-delib ... tsink.html

[2004Tiger]

Thoughts and comments:
Good on ya, Stretch. Necessity is the father of invention. All will benefit from your tinkering, as usual. I divine from your postings and the RAT discussion that overheated R/R is the root cause of the stator failures. Do you agree? I can't tinker right now, so I'll just say what's on my mind:

The R/R is finned, and there is an amount of airflow which will provide adequate cooling. We don't know what that amount is, and Hinkley erred in not providing a location with adequate airflow.
Adding a baseplate with heat transfer paste to absorb heat will help until the baseplate gets hot, unless there is airflow or frame mass to convect or conduct the heat away. Since there is no airflow, the baseplate will have limited effect.
Adding a finned baseplate as suggested is even better, but airflow is still required to cool the additional fins.
The key is airflow, how to provide it, and an adequate amount. More fins would mean less airflow is required, but NO airflow is not allowed.

[Stretch]

Thoughts and comments:
Good on ya, Stretch. Necessity is the father of invention. All will benefit from your tinkering, as usual. I divine from your postings and the RAT discussion that overheated R/R is the root cause of the stator failures. Do you agree? I can't tinker right now, so I'll just say what's on my mind:

The R/R is finned, and there is an amount of airflow which will provide adequate cooling. We don't know what that amount is, and Hinkley erred in not providing a location with adequate airflow.
Adding a baseplate with heat transfer paste to absorb heat will help until the baseplate gets hot, unless there is airflow or frame mass to convect or conduct the heat away. Since there is no airflow, the baseplate will have limited effect.
Adding a finned baseplate as suggested is even better, but airflow is still required to cool the additional fins.
The key is airflow, how to provide it, and an adequate amount. More fins would mean less airflow is required, but NO airflow is not allowed.

That's what I'm thinking.

My plan thus far is to modify the left side cover to allow the RR to reside there, in place of the seat lock.  I'll mount it somewhere else, using a longer cable.

I've ordered a piece of 1/4-inch thick copper sheet, 3 inches wide, and a foot long.  The copper plate will be the heat sink, and shall bolt to the subframe, bridging the air space just above the passenger footpeg mounts.  The RR shall bolt to the copper plate, out in the breeze, with heat sink grease between the RR and copper plate to improve the heat flow into the copper.

Small individual heat sinks, made for electronic components, are going on the back of the copper plate, in the area where the bike's frame won't cover the back of the copper...



This will help to draw the heat out of the copper, on the back side.

I'm also going to double each wire in the system, to cut down resistance and overloading, which can kill components internally.

[Bear]

Bla bla bla ...............................................

I'm also going to double each wire in the system, to cut down resistance and overloading, which can kill components internally.

Stretch Just a small thought, instead of taking the regulator to the fresh air why not bring the fresh cool air to the regulator (ducting it......)

[Stretch]

I thought about that... fabbing a scoop and ducts, but it can't match the airflow of having the RR right there in fresh air.  And by scooping and ducting air from anywhere near the engine, that air supplied to the RR is already hot.

I had also thought about installing a small fan to blow across the RR, but fans that small only blow about 4 Cubic Feet a Minute... not much.  Also, the air that the fan would draw from is that empty space behind the cylinders, which is already pretty warm.

I believe the very best way to cool the RR would be to mount it behind the fairing, a bit below the two small openings at the bottom.  It would get scads of cool air forced over it, and that air would then exit upward between the dash and the tank.

But that would involve running a veritable rope of wiring from the engine to the fairing, with the RR having 7 wires coming in and out of it.  I'm also increasing the wire size to help it run cooler (for the same voltage and amperage, larger wires make less resistance), making the bundle even thicker.

I think I'll most likely mount it outside of the subframe, just above the left passenger footpeg mount.  I'll have to modify the side cover and seat lock to make room for it, but doing so will get the RR into the breeze while keeping the wires fairly short.

[Bear]

I'm at work at the moment but I'll have a "girls look" when I get home, like your thinking though. Thanks Stretch for all your good work on our beloved Tigers.

[Stretch]

Thanks, Bro.  Apparently, Triumph thought the RR was too unsightly to mount in a ventilated area, and then cut corners on wire size, but these bikes are simply too good to give up on.  With a little tinkering, I believe these problems can be overcome, and the bike will be stone reliable.

[sanjoh]

RR fix on my 84 Honda VF.

[OzTiger007]

Hey Stretch,
Long time no speak. The high mount fender I got last year looks awesome.
I had the regulator problem on my VFR back hom in Aus. Seems Honda didn't feel the need for cooling fins. Replaced the original with an earlier models heat sinked unit. Using a heat detector I was still registering significant heat. I installed a CPU cooling fan and heat sink...problem solved. It was a bit of mucking around but worked well even with the VFR's tendancy to "cook your balls" with the heat from the rear two cylinders.

Keep up the fight