If you Don't Like Politics... Read Something Else

[aeronca]

as of tonight, 21mar10, we no longer live in a country of the people,by the people - it is now of the govornmenet,by the govornment. i will not fly my flag upside down, but, I WILL NOT FLY IT (except on national flag day's), untill this sham of a president is out!!!! i hope to god the s.o.b.'s that voted for this crap they call "helth care reform" are all voted out. the day a govorment tells me that i have to buy anything, or face penalties/jail is the day we are no longer FREE! on OBAMA, on POLOSI, our so called govornment. the only thing this bill will help, is the the wallets of those so called law makers who voted for this.   and the best part is that the IRS is the enforcer's.

[coachgeo]

and the best part is that the IRS is the enforcer's.

and since I owe the IRS so much money.. they will probably punish me by denying me their health care they say everyone should have for free LOL :D  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :roll:  :roll:  :roll:

[redbirds]

as of tonight, 21mar10, we no longer live in a country of the people,by the people - it is now of the govornmenet,by the govornment. i will not fly my flag upside down, but, I WILL NOT FLY IT (except on national flag day's), untill this sham of a president is out!!!! i hope to god the s.o.b.'s that voted for this crap they call "helth care reform" are all voted out. the day a govorment tells me that i have to buy anything, or face penalties/jail is the day we are no longer FREE! on OBAMA, on POLOSI, our so called govornment. the only thing this bill will help, is the the wallets of those so called law makers who voted for this.   and the best part is that the IRS is the enforcer's.

Couldn't agree more.  

[Sasquatch]

as of tonight, 21mar10, we no longer live in a country of the people,by the people - it is now of the govornmenet,by the govornment. i will not fly my flag upside down, but, I WILL NOT FLY IT (except on national flag day's), untill this sham of a president is out!!!! i hope to god the s.o.b.'s that voted for this crap they call "helth care reform" are all voted out. the day a govorment tells me that i have to buy anything, or face penalties/jail is the day we are no longer FREE! on OBAMA, on POLOSI, our so called govornment. the only thing this bill will help, is the the wallets of those so called law makers who voted for this.   and the best part is that the IRS is the enforcer's.

I sadly, agree.  My flag came down this morning.

But I will replace it with an Idaho flag.  Our state gov't was the first to sign a bill into law that said that the federal government will not be allowed to force any Idaho citizen to purchase any health care plan against their will.  He has instructed the AG to file a lawsuit the moment the fed bill is signed into law.  37 other states are considering following suit.

[aeronca]

:icon_salut



sasquatch, thats a great idea!!! tomorrow i will fly my state flag as well. we are also taking on the fed about this issue.

[cosmo]

I'l try to not take sides one way or t'other, as to do so would negate my central point.

Does anyone recall when this nation was one of compromise and resolution; where all sides would sit down and hammer out an agreement that saw all sides and addressed the needs of most??

When did we decide to become a nation of "either/or"??

And why would that benefit anyone??

Right here, we have members advocating violence in a subtle way, but violence nevertheless. ("Keep your powder dry" probably does not refer to your wife's tin in the bath)

What, exactly, will an attitude like this lead to in the end?? Please answer this, as there are many who would like to know just what, exactly, you have in mind as to an outcome?? Columbine?? NIU?? Virginia Tech?? Civil War?? Or another rehash of a John Hinckley?? Guy Fawkes?? Or just simply killing anyone who is not white, anglo-saxon, and in complete agreement with you, Tom Metzger-style??

Many folk will throw out terms like "Socialist" and Marxist" without ever knowing what those terms mean. But they sure work, don't they?? That's because few want to study, it's easier to threaten (see Muslim Extremist and Tea Party Republican, or do I repeat myself??).

I would like to see a return to a government that sees the good of the many (not the monied, not the white, not the buddies), rather than two groups of politicos that simply say "NO!!!" to whatever is proposed.

BTW, just as an addendum: the USA is NOT, I repeat, NOT the free-est country in the world, more like #15 according to World Audit of Democracy:
http://www.worldaudit.org/democracy.htm
However, you ARE free to disagree. It would be without research, of course, as that is the way of things, these days.

Cosmo

[redbirds]

I notice that the rankings are based on how "democratic" a government is. Democracy is nothing but a nice word for mob rule. Our founding fathers abhored it, thus they created a republic. The fact that I can go armed most anywhere in my home state means that I live, for now anyway, in a place that values the individual over the wants of the mob. I have not seen any hint of violence promoted on this site but I do see a high level of frustration with a government that has nothing more in mind than a foot in the door power grab. There can be no other word for a government takeover of a major portion of the economy except socialism, or perhaps national socialism.

[wasions]

I notice that the rankings are based on how "democratic" a government is. Democracy is nothing but a nice word for mob rule. Our founding fathers abhored it, thus they created a republic. The fact that I can go armed most anywhere in my home state means that I live, for now anyway, in a place that values the individual over the wants of the mob. I have not seen any hint of violence promoted on this site but I do see a high level of frustration with a government that has nothing more in mind than a foot in the door power grab. There can be no other word for a government takeover of a major portion of the economy except socialism, or perhaps national socialism.

+1
 :x

[harre]

I'd like to add some fuel to this debate. Your discussions are very interersting and it is clear that we have very different standpoints and experiences. I live in Sweden, a somewhat (in my view) socialistic democratic country but I feel pretty free. I can go skiing, hiking, biking, camping almost everywhere. Signs like: "trespassers will be shot", are non-existent in Scandinavia. If I get unemployed or sick me and my children can still get the best education and healtcare there is. We don't carry guns because no-one is allowed to do so. Moreover, extreme liberalism also means free capitalism, and that almost got us into the greatest economic meltdown in history if it hadn't been for goverments chippin' in.

[redbirds]

I've never been to your country but from photos and what I've read Sweden is a free and beautiful place I'm sure. I also can roam vast areas of open land, hundreds of thousands of acres in fact. There are no signs that say tresspassers will be shot. I'm free to camp in State Parks, National Parks and National and State Forests encompassing millions of acres. I'm also able to hunt and fish in many of these places. I also do not worry if I become ill or have an accident because I have health Insurance and those that do not can go to any emergency room and recieve care. Many of the poor are on Medicaid which provides government paid care for them. I go armed because my government has concluded that there is nothing to fear from a law abiding armed citizen and why should I be unarmed when thugs and criminals go about armed in spite of laws against their being so. So I will say, with all due respect to you, that I cannot imagine any freedom that I am disallowed that is available anywhere else in the world. A person who is cared for by the government is not really free but merely a ward of the state and like a child is easily denied priviledge when the state deems it fit. Free people take care of themselves and accept the risks of living thus.

This economic mess was not caused by free markets but by government medling and the "chrony" capitalism that is practiced world wide and passed off as a free market. It is caused by governments taxing the wealth away from those that produce so as to promise government programs that eventually go over budget and drive national debt out of control.

[cosmo]

I also do not worry if I become ill or have an accident because I have health Insurance and those that do not can go to any emergency room and recieve care. Many of the poor are on Medicaid which provides government paid care for them.

I DO worry, as I cannot afford the health insurance currently on sale. I also make too much to receive Medicaid. And I have a "pre-existing condition" that, until a couple days ago, would be sufficient cause for any insurer to deny me coverage, PERIOD, end of sentence. It is also very obvious that you do not understand the purpose of an Emergency Room. It is NOT to provide basic health care for those who cannot afford what you take for granted.

This economic mess was not caused by free markets but by government medling and the "chrony" capitalism that is practiced world wide and passed off as a free market. It is caused by governments taxing the wealth away from those that produce so as to promise government programs that eventually go over budget and drive national debt out of control.

Emphasis mine, however, you may not agree,  the current economic conditions did not arise overnight. Started perhaps more than a year ago, even. Who is guilty?? Why you and me, wanting a better life and willing to close our collective eyes to what could have been obviously "too good to be true", insomuch as a mortgage that was too high, stock market that was producing, so why ask questions, and so much more.
But, hey, why not, when it all goes downhill, blame the guy in power, call him names, instead of working to make it all better. This is today's Republican party, splintered and hugely ineffective, lacking even a spokesman save for some fat bloke who cannot get a fact straight to save his soul, not that he wants or needs to, seeing as how even the wrong facts prop up HIS bottom line. A party that is even now splintering further into a faction that sees, as it's flag-bearer, a barely educated, half-term Governor of a state that needed so little in the way of leadership, but that she STILL couldn't provide, although she could see Russia (her sole contribution to foreign policy).

Folks, this country is NOT going to be helped by blaming the black man. He will be the president until January 2012(2016), no matter HOW loud you scream. The best way to help is to HELP, not simply say NO to everything proposed.

And, just to stir up the pot a little more, consider this: during the last economic meltdown, one country has not felt the effects hardly at all. So while you all scream loudly about how free this is and how bad it is for the government (no matter if you can spell it, or not, despite the inbuilt spellcheck) to control things, the one country that is doing well is doing well because the government controls things. And YOU buy those things that are produced by said country.

So, you have to ask yourself: is this sustainable, or not?? I say NOT, if this American Democracy becomes one party saying NO to another, until the whole becomes utterly deadlocked into stalemate.

As to freedoms available in other countries, I will mention only one: the ability to purchase any automobile or motorcycle, and register it for the road, without having to submit it to the equivalent of the US EPA, who, under threat of complete destruction, requires a very expensive retrofit operation. I cannot purchase a Citroën here, but I understand that I could, as a resident of most other countries, purchase AND register a Corvette, without that expensive retrofit. They call it "personal responsibility" which we don't believe in.

Cosmo[/u]

[aeronca]

why did you have to bring race into it. i simply disagree with the current administration and there policies. not everything in the health care reform package was bad, but too much was. i like the part about pre-existing condition's. that's real reform, but forcing me to buy something is unconstitutional, and that's where i draw the line. the irony of it all is when the then senator OBAMA stood before congress and berated first lady CLINTON  on just this exact topic of purchasing health insurance on the Clinton attempt at health care. this "thing" will not save any money over time, and only take more away from me and my family, and i ain't rich. i feel for ya bro if your having a hard time, but government is not the answer.

oh and as a side note: the Gov from Alaska is way more qualified for the job than our community organizer and chief. but don't fret, i voted Libertarian.

[redbirds]

Actually Cosmo, health care was always affordable before the government became involved. Regular doctor visits were not covered by my company's insurance when I began my career over 40  years ago. We had hospitalization coverage but regular medical care was relatively inexpensive. Then came medicare and run away tort cases. The costs went beyond what most people could afford. Reform is needed, but the reform being passed will cost more than we can ever hope to pay. All federal entitlement programs are bankrupt. The national debt now exceeds $40,000 for every person in the country. Many things could have been done to make health care affordable. Removing the barriers that prevent interstate insurance sales would have opened up more competition. Enacting real tort reform to lower insurance costs to doctors and hospitals. Allowing small businesses to buy group insurance health care. None of these things were put into this bill because it's not about helping people but having economic control over them.


I also do not understand why you believe that this is somehow a racial issue. Just because one may disagree with Obama does not mean that person is a racist.

As to whether or not one can buy this or that car is hardly an argument for liberty.

[harre]

I spent one summer in Connecticut, and that was great. Is was a great journey and I some sceneries were fantastic. Sometimes I felt like I was in a movie (this happens when you have been watching Hollywood productions since childhood). But I really though the no-trespassing signs were a turn-off. It felt as a hostile thing. I never got used to it.

I'm free to camp in State Parks, National Parks and National and State Forests encompassing millions of acres. I'm also able to hunt and fish in many of these places.

In our country you can camp in nature everywhere, even on private property, owners are not allowed to use fences or put up sign of no trepassing. Of course you cannot camp in gardens or backyards or many nights without asking permission. This may not sound to good if you are to owner of that property, and there are companies that have sold hiking trips that clearly misuse this freedom. Read more here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_to_roam

I cannot imagine any freedom that I am disallowed that is available anywhere else in the world. A person who is cared for by the government is not really free but merely a ward of the state and like a child is easily denied priviledge when the state deems it fit. Free people take care of themselves and accept the risks of living thus.

I would agree that your freedom is higher with the cost of a higher risk. I cannot deny to pay my high taxes (includes social and health insurance), but you could say no to paying your medical insurance. In practise you are cared for by your medical insurance company (and I have read some horrific stories about those). You are proud of your freedom and that you should. I'm proud that my children are secure and free to educate themselves to whatever they want, me and my fellow citizens have already payed the bill. I understand that competition brings forward slim and effective organisations, and sometimes I would like to have the opportunity to take my money to a competing medical company when I'm dissatisfied, but when you're really ill, and need surgery or medical treatment things work really well. This is more clear to me now that I have small children, now I'm really getting the benefits from my taxes (I have been unemployed for over a year, but that has no effect on my childrens well being). We have a "big" government because we have choosen to have it that way. You may say that we have traded economic freedom for a higher level of security. However, Sweden is not my ideal country, that is Norway (not only because of the oil), but Norwegians smoke too much.

[John Stenhouse]

I'll stick my oar in and point out the obvious. Anyone who says they are free is dreaming. There are probably one or two places where your not under some government or other, but we aren't hunter gatherers in Africa nor bedouin in the Sahara, those are the only places I can think of where government control isn't a reality.

So we ALL pay taxes, it's not possible to opt out, much though we would like to sometimes.

It seems from this side of the pond your arguing over what you get for your tax?

Is that right? If so I can't see what the fuss is.