Sick Tiger...

[Hack'dTiger]

I just ran across your site, and am excited to find what looks like a great source of Steamer information. I'm planning on reading through as much as I can, but in the meantime I have a sick Tiger that I'm trying to cure.

The following is from a document that I've pasted on another board, trying to find direction...It's a long first post, I know. Thanks in advance.

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I'll make this as short as possible, but to get a full diagnosis most of the back story needs to be laid out.

2-3 months ago I purchased a sidecar setup. The rig is a '98 model Tiger with a Ural car/sub frame. The bike had about 16k miles on the clock, and it appeared that the previous owner(s) had taken care of it.

Up until this point, the only thing that I had done was put gas in it. After a couple of days of riding, I noticed that it had a weird rattle, but that it would go away when I hit the brake pedal. After some internet searching I learned that this was a common problem caused by the alternator coupling bolt head shearing off. So, I pulled the alternator and the sources were correct...the bolt head was sheared. With some help from my machine shop friends, and a trip to the hardware store, this problem was fixed.

This Tiger has a set of D&D aftermarket exhaust, and the carbs were supposedly tuned to match. It ran great, and pulled hard, especially considering that it's toting that cart around. I put around 2k trouble free miles on it before I started having problems.

The last trip we took was when it started acting up. We took a 250 mile trip, all at highway speeds, about a month ago. This was the first long ride that it had ever seen, with me in the saddle anyway.

After arriving at our destination, and taking several rides around the area, we parked for the night. The following morning we got ready to leave out. However, the Tiger wouldn't start. It would crank, crank, crank,....but not fire up. It didn't act up a bit the day before. Thinking that the trip might've fouled a plug, I changed them all...in the parking lot. Still nothing. The starter would still just spin without even trying to fire up...choke or not.

We tinkered with it for an hour or more when one of my friends suggested that we try to push start it. I didn't have much faith that this would change anything, but after a short push and a pop from the clutch the Tiger roared to life. Great, problem solved...I told myself that I'd buy a battery after returning home and wouldn't think anything else about it. We rode it around the area, and home, without any problems. Once it was push started and warm, it would fire up no problem.

Got home, slapped a new battery in with fingers crossed...same problem. Son-of-a-..., now what? Back to the internet...

I learned that this early model(s), also referred to as 'Steamers', were known for faulty pickup coils. This prompted me to go ahead and do a full maintenance breakdown on it. This should've been done as soon as I got it, I know, but I was busy at the time.

Off comes the body work. The spark plugs checked out, since I just checked them. The plugs were getting spark, so the coils were good. The pickup coil had been cut and re-spliced. My ohm meter showed that it was a little under the desired range, so I replaced it. Next comes the air box, and after cussing the design engineers I got the air box out....along with the bank of carbs. Not the greatest design. This is when I found another problem. The filter was completely shot. It looked like it was the original filter, but needed to be changed...bad. The box and filter were both replaced. I also pulled the float bowl(s), and the carb internals all looked nice and clean. The only other issue that I can think of is that the choke seemed to have progressively gotten less effective. Maybe that was the weather though...or my imagination?

So now it had new plugs, new air box/filter, new pickup coil, and a new battery. It was getting fuel and air, so I should have the problem fixed now, right? Wrong. Same problem....crank, crank, crank. You could still push start it though. What's next? The valves?

I've read that these engines are picky about having their valves set correctly. After talking with the previous owner, he stated that a 'full' service including a valve adjustment, was done at around 15k miles. What the hell, I've looked at everything else that I can think of, so I decided to check the valves. Off comes the valve cover. With the help of a Haynes manual that came with the bike, I checked each valve clearance. The exhaust valves checked out fine, but all three intake valves were tight. I couldn't even get a feeler under them. I could, however, still spin the shim(s). Alas, my problem was found....or so I thought.

I didn't have the time, or tools, to start fiddling with the valve shim replacement. So, I called up my local Triumph shop (100 miles away) to schedule a valve adjustment. Luckily I had a day off the same day they had an opening. Even better, they said that it was likely that they would be able to get it out the same day. Excellent I thought, I'll finally get my Tiger back on the road.

We left out early that Friday morning and dropped it off when the doors opened. I explained all of the above to them as well. Later that afternoon they called back. Good news? No. Before doing the valve adjustment they did a leak down check. They said that this was typical on a job like mine. The test came back with bad results. Cylinders 2 and 3 would only hold 70psi, and cylinder 1 would only hold 50psi. This meant that I either needed a ring job, or that I had a valve(s) stuck open. They said that the cylinders should check out to 150psi, with 120psi being the lowest acceptable reading. I was told that even if they adjusted the valves, it wouldn't make up for that big of a difference.

After some debate, they determined that if the bike stayed there that the engine would have to be pulled and split to determine the root of the problem. All of this meant big bucks. My argument was that I didn't believe the problem to lie in the rings. It ran too strong, didn't smoke, and didn't burn oil for it to be the rings. After seeing how bad the air filter was, and after my 2k miles of riding it, I could see that it was possible for the valves to be carbon'd up. I don't think that calls for an engine tear down though. I'd much rather try to free them up with fuel additives first...if that's even the problem.

So, I ended up paying $80 for them to do a compression test that I could've done myself. I guess this was better than paying for a full on adjustment and it not fixing the problem. I'm thinking (read hoping) that the previous owner was lied to when someone did the 'service', and a straight forward valve adjustment will knock this thing in the head. When I pulled the valve cover though the gasket came off fairly easy. Not what I'd expect from a nearly ten year old bike.

After reading all of this, can you shed some light on my situation? Does this dealer know what they're talking about? If I take it somewhere else for a valve adjustment, or do it myself, do you think the problem will go away?

This is my first Triumph. I'm used to Jap bikes, and have other Yamaha V-twins to ride...but I miss my sidecar rig. I've found that its versatility is unmatched. Yet again I find myself searching on the internet, and it has brought me to you. Thanks in advance foremost for your time, and second for your input.

[Mustang]

get those intakes shimmed , you should have .004-.006 on the intakes and .006.008 on the exhausts

next I would be replacing the coils with nology coils , as the stock coils are noted for failure , even though they spark and ohm out fine they can't take a compression load , nologys make it happy happy and starts easier and idles smoother ,

On  a 98 with Keihin carbs the main jets like to be 100 or 105's and shim the needles with some washers so that they are raised approx. .025-.030 and the pilot mixture screws need to be set at 2 to 2 1/4 turns out .
it will start much easier with these settings , also make sure the throttle cable has some free play as the carbs don't like any throttle applied when cold just choke . With these settings on the carbs make sure the right side snorkel is capped on the airbox .

also note that you could have a fuel problem , make sure the gas tank vent is working and clean the filter that is in the T where the fuel pipe attaches to the carbs

[Hack'dTiger]

Thanks for your post.

It didn't take me long to realize that you were the go-to guy. I've already read several of your posts.

From the way it sounds then, I shouldn't be too bad off. I was afraid that I was going to need expensive head work, and still might I guess, but it's nice to know that I was on the right track.

I've read the same about the coils, and at the time I tried to locate some. However, I quickly learned that parts, and availability, haven't met each other when it comes to Steamers.

Those carb settings will be handy too. I'll double check everything when I tear back into it.

Thanks again for the informative post.

[John Stenhouse]

I'm in no way an expert, but common sense says if the valves are too tight that compression will be down. So either I'm missing something or that dealer is dumb.

Dealers this side of the pond can be that way too, I stopped using one near Oxford 'cos they were dumb.

[Hack'dTiger]

I'm in no way an expert, but common sense says if the valves are too tight that compression will be down. So either I'm missing something or that dealer is dumb.

Yep, another reason why I loaded her up.

[nightrunner]

Mustang's advice is good, but starting will be much easier if you go up one size on the pilot jets and then set them about 1.25-1.5 turns out.   Note that 3 turns out is the end of adjustable range.  My '98 was at 2.5 turns in stock trim and it was very hard to start.

Also there is an alternative to the nology coils.  Get a set of TT600 on-plug coils off ebay.  Should cost you about $30 for a set of four.  The coil is actually in the spark plug boot so no plug wires to wear out either.  You just have to run extension wires from the coil mounts over to the plugs.  

Oh and you might want to read through the threads on DAR (the alternator rattle).  It will come back if the root problem is not solved.

Good luck and welcome

[Hack'dTiger]

Well, it's been over a year since I've messed with the Tiger...but family matters have kept me from it.

Since the last post I recently decided that I was past ready to get her back on the road, and have taken it to a reputable independent shop for diagnosis/repair.

Last week I was faced with a phone call full of bad news, and a difficult choice. It's going to need head/valve work after all. My conundrum is that it's a lot of cash to spend on a 12yr old bike, and I haven't had it long enough to know if it's going to be worth the effort (read cash).

My options are to drop at least a grand to fix it, sell it as is, or part it out. I've been thinking about it for nearly a week, but still can't decide. My biggest fear is that she'll still be a maintenance whore after getting this work done.

What's the best move here? Is it going to be worth the time, money, and effort....or should I just cut my losses now?

Btw, in all of my searching I've not found a better source for Steamer info!


Thanks in advance...
Luke

[Rocinante]

This problem looks like a straight forward valve seat problem, typical for the 98. Mine was just like that, and the reason was valve so tight they didn´t close at all, hence the low compression and starting problems when cold.

It´s strange and alarming if a dealer doesn´t understand this.

Some 98 engines seems to have too hard valve seats which wears down the intake valves a lot faster than normal. Mine´s one of them and I bet your´s is too.

My 98 has 140 kkm on it now, and the head has been serviced once, with new seats and new valves. When I reached the second end of the service life (ie the shims where of minimum thickness and clearances where close to zero), I decided after much considering, to buy a used cylinder head on ebay.

I payed 250 USD for the head, which is still sitting on the shelf. I plan to replace it this summer.

That could be a reasonable and cheap solution for you too.

Good luck!