Tiger Time => Steamers (1993-1998 Tigers) => Topic started by: ssevy on August 28, 2017, 03:06:28 AM

Title: Engine Rebuild
Post by: ssevy on August 28, 2017, 03:06:28 AM
I thought some rebuild photos might be a nice reference for others who need to do part or all of this job. If you are like me, you search every thread possible before undertaking a big job, and I often find useful bits here and there from several threads. Sometimes just the right photo can really make a difference, so hopefully some of these may be useful.

Now, a quick word of warning:  the manuals (factory and Haynes) are both useful, but you also need to use your common sense or you may have some issues. I will provide a great example of my not following this advice, and the half a day I wasted doing a job twice because of it. :icon_redface:

For a quick bit of background, I needed to split my cases because I mangled the plastic spacers on the output shaft bearing, and replacing this bearing required getting the transmission shafts out. Since I had to pull the engine out of the frame to do this, and then take most of it apart, I went ahead and freshened the entire top end while I was at it, so the only things I didn't remove were the balancer gear assembly, the shift forks and drum, and the oil pump.

In any case, I will be posting photos and any helpful tips I discover as I proceed, and once the entire job is complete and the bike back on the road, I'll move all of it to the sticky page. Since the purpose of this thread will be to help others in the future, please jump in with any tips or suggestions if you have already been through this before me.

Prepping to reassemble:

I have all of my parts laid out on two long tables which are covered in butcher paper. Following the manuals, I had previously removed things pretty much in order, and numbered, labeled, and bagged parts as they came off. (Reassembling would mean starting with the highest number and working backwards until I got to #1 if everything went smoothly.) Then I cleaned everything up, printed out all of the parts diagrams and lists with numbers from Hermy's website, made a list of which parts needed replacing, and ordered the entire caboodle from Hermy's. (It is amazing that $1200 worth of parts will fit in a medium sized cardboard box :icon_frown:)

Once I received the parts, I labeled each bag with its number from the parts diagram, and placed all parts that belonged to a particular diagram in a big zip lock bag with the parts page itself. Some of the small steel parts from the dealer had been on a shelf somewhere for so long that they had rusted, so I used my trusty wire brush wheel on an old motor to clean these up before I coated them with some oil and re-bagged them.

My tools had all been left neatly on a nearby table when I dismantled the engine, so hopefully every tool I would need should still be present (theoretically :icon_eek:). I had also procured the ThreeBond sealer and the correct Loctite for the bearings, as well as some cans of brake cleaner and a roll of shop towels, so everything was on hand and ready before I began.

Okay, time to do some engine rebuilding: (all photos will get larger for better clarity if you click them)

Here's the transmission shaft page I used to rebuild the tranny shafts as an example of my bagging and labeling system:

You need to clean all of the surfaces where the two crankcase halves will come together. I used Brakleen on a rag for this job. Following the manuals, I applied the Loctite to the upper crankcase surfaces where the two large bearings lie. I then installed the two transmission shafts in their places, and moved the sliding gears around until I had everything set in neutral, so the two shafts could spin independently. At this point, I stopped for the night, to continue the next day. DO NOT MAKE THIS MISTAKE! Unfortunately, the bearings were not down as tightly as they needed to be, and the Loctite dried into a small hard "button" under the bearings, so when I bolted on the lower half of the crankcase today, I heard a loud "crack" and then the shafts would no longer turn. Upon disassembling the cases, I found the dried Loctite which was the culprit, but unfortunately had to then wipe off all of the fresh ThreeBond and re-clean everything. What should have taken just an hour or so ate up most of the afternoon :icon_frown:
The lesson here is to get the two crankcase halves together as soon as you have installed the transmission shafts.

So, the correct procedure is to apply the Loctite, install your tranny shafts correctly, preset neutral with the gears, check your balancer shaft/crankshaft orientation, and then apply the ThreeBond and mate your cases. I found applying the ThreeBond to the lower case to be easier and a neater job. Also, the tool I bought really made it easy to get a smooth bead with the stuff, which is quite thin and sticky.

The balancer gear orientation is important to set correctly. If you hold the inner gear and twist the outer, you can find the dot on the inner gear that shows where to align the outer gear. You can see the small dot here on the back gear tooth:

Twist the outer dot so that it covers the inner dot. I added some paint to make things easier to see for proper alignment. Here is the crank properly installed:

Here is the special tool I bought to help with the ThreeBond application:

Here is what the transmission shafts and gears look like when they are in neutral:

Here are some shots of the seams so you can see that only a small bead is necessary; notice the small amount of runoff:


Here is my new output bearing - Triumph is now using a sealed bearing in this application, so no more plastic spacer to break :icon_wink:

You'll see this again later in the thread, but this is what my refurbished head looks like:

My machinist told me that the intake valve seats were in perfect alignment, and reground easily. The exhaust seats were somewhat cocked off, and his first pass only touched on one edge. He was able to get them done correctly, and took a bit off some of the exhaust valve stems to keep me in a better shim range. He said the head is now in beautiful shape, and probably better than it left the factory.

Here's a closer view:

(more to come)

Title: Re: Engine Rebuild
Post by: Timbox2 on August 28, 2017, 08:54:04 AM
Nice job mate, are you using  Threebond for the liners too? I know Hylomar was the original but I believe Triumph now list a Threebond product for them on the later bikes.
Title: Re: Engine Rebuild
Post by: ssevy on August 28, 2017, 04:14:57 PM
ThreeBond is the silicone sealer for the crankcase seam. Still Hylomar for the new cylinder sleeves.
Title: Re: Engine Rebuild
Post by: bemusedinsojo on August 28, 2017, 11:05:32 PM
Nice job ssevy. Very meticulous,  which I lack so it's good to see how you did it. Do you have any photos/tips of engine removal?
Title: Re: Engine Rebuild
Post by: ssevy on August 29, 2017, 12:47:31 AM
Quote from: bemusedinsojo on August 28, 2017, 11:05:32 PM
Nice job ssevy. Very meticulous,  which I lack so it's good to see how you did it. Do you have any photos/tips of engine removal?

I'll take some when I put the engine back in the frame. Hopefully tomorrow or Wednesday.
Title: Re: Engine Rebuild
Post by: threepot on August 29, 2017, 02:11:29 PM
Looking good :thumbsup
Title: Re: Engine Rebuild
Post by: ssevy on August 31, 2017, 02:19:42 PM
Okay, continuing on...some parts procurement issues which you will face if you have to remove your engine. More on that later.

My new liners and pistons seemed to not be in spec, and I posted a separate thread asking the collective for advice.
In the meantime, I did the ring end gap measurements as described in the manual with the new parts, and here they all fell within spec, so I went ahead and installed the rings in the pistons, etc., so they would be ready to install. Gudgeon pin clips should be installed in the outside position for #1 and #3, and either side of #2. A little oil in the loop on the con rod and in the piston hole made sliding the pins into place a cinch.
They are a bit fussy to line up just right, and be sure to cover all of the openings down into the crankcase below with a big rag, as the clips you need to install are just the type that like to fly into
inaccessible places. Most importantly, when you rotate the crankshaft to bring each con rod up to height to install the piston, turn it slowly and don't let a previously installed piston or ring hang up on the lip of the crankcase.

Here are my 3 pistons all installed and ready for the liners:

And here are the liners with the Blue Hylomar in place, setting up for the 15 minute waiting period before you install them:

I put a drop of oil in the bottom interior of each sleeve and spread it carefully with my finger around the circumference to help ease the new rings into place. Again, you carefully turn the crankshaft to get the piston as high as possible, then you insert the piston gently into the bottom of the liner. Once it was started, I found it easiest to keep my thumbs on the top of each sleeve, and then use my fingers to squeeze the piston up into the sleeve. Then it is just a matter of pushing the sleeve down into place, which in this case was very easy to do for all 3 sleeves.

At this point, I wire brushed my head bolts, and then per the manual, I oiled each set of threads and then wiped off most of the oil, leaving just a light film. These were laid out on a clean towel a convenient reach away.

Next I put the new head gasket into place:

Then I followed the manual torque sequence for the head bolts.
I am curious about Triumph's thinking here? Most head bolts that I have used on aluminum headed engines in the past have been stretch bolts, and they have looked just like these head bolts. These TTY (torque-to-yield) to a torque setting which accounts for a designed amount of stretching (which is what every bolt does when you torque it), maintaining a consistent pressure on the head through its expansion and contraction cycles (hot and cold). These stretch bolts are always discarded and replaced with new, because once they have been torqued to their correct setting, they do not recover like a regular bolt.
Strangely, the four engine mounting bolts are supposed to be disposable, because they are stretch bolts. This is the issue I alluded to earlier, as the front engine mounting bolts are no longer available from Triumph, and so today I am going in search of something with which to replace them.
It just seems really strange that Triumph is so fussy about mentioning the replacement of the engine mounting bolts, but the head bolts are just cleaned and lightly oiled and then reused?

Returning back to the reassembly, I put the cam chain and camshafts back in place. While I had the timing disc out on the bench, I decided to make my life easier, and put a nice white line of paint on the TDC mark. I also did the same for the two arrows on the camshafts. A little masking tape for borders, and then a dab of white paint with my fingertip, and I was in business!

Here you can see the results of my efforts:



I then removed all of the old cam cover gasket and bolt gaskets, installed the new ones that came with the gasket kit, and put the cover back on. The new rubber gasket has the spark plug rubbers molded into it with rubber straps, and I cut these off so that each one was separate. I also used some of my Permatex Hylomar on the cover side of the rubber gasket to hold it in place. I always do this on all of my gaskets on the cover side. Some use grease to do the same thing, but I really like the tacky Hylomar. By the way, the old bolt gaskets will have to be pried out with a small screwdriver, and the new ones will be loose when you install them. Once you tighten the bolts down, they will expand and fill the space. Be sure to put the metal side up for the bolt shoulder to lie upon.

Starter and alternator went back in with new O-rings. I left the negative battery strap bolt off the alternator until I get the engine back in the frame.

I moved my ladder back into place, put my nylon strap around the engine where it wouldn't break any fittings or connectors, and attached the come along. Once I have my engine mounting bolts in hand, I'll raise the engine up off the work table I made, then pull the table out of the way, roll in my motorcycle jack, and then lower the engine down onto the jack. Then it is just a matter of wheeling it into place under the frame and bolting it up (at least that's the plan in my fantasy world :icon_wink:)


(more to come)

Title: Re: Engine Rebuild
Post by: Timbox2 on August 31, 2017, 04:22:06 PM
On the later Tigers like my sport Triumph say its OK to re-use the engine mounting bolts but that the locknuts should be replaced??
Title: Re: Engine Rebuild
Post by: ssevy on September 01, 2017, 01:18:00 AM
I sent a message to the machinist who did the head and valves for me to ask him about the engine mounting bolts, and here is his reply:

"Torque to yield hardware is used a lot on modern engine internals because they cost less than higher grade bolts and the OEM tells you to use new un-stretched bolts for re-assembly. Bolt your engine in your frame with the old hardware. They will still work fine because the load on the bolt is a shearing force not a pulling or stretching load (like main case bolts or rod bolts). I think the OEM likes to make a little extra money using the fear factor. The bike will be fine."

For anyone who cannot source replacements, I guess this offers some confidence in reusing the old ones?
Title: Re: Engine Rebuild
Post by: ssevy on September 17, 2017, 05:50:13 AM
Okay, all of my parts arrived, and I am ready to put it all back in the frame. My buddy Terry came over to help me with this step, and it actually went pretty smoothly. The first step was to use the come along to raise the engine off of my temporary work bench, and then slip the motorcycle jack under the cross brace on the workbench to wheel it out of place. Then I rolled the motorcycle jack under the engine, lowered it a couple of inches from its highest setting, and had Terry guide the engine as I lowered the cable. Once it was securely settled on the jack, I simply pumped the jack handle to give me some slack in the cable, and then disconnected the hook and the nylon straps. I lowered the jack all the way down for better stability, and we carefully wheeled the jack under the bike from the sidestand side of the bike. Then we leaned the engine back by hand and slipped a 2 x 4 under the front to give a better angle for slipping the front two engine mounts into place. The clearance is very tight, and it took us a few cycles of up and down and realigning until we got the two mounts lined up. We used the rubber end of my dead blow hammer to tap the bolts into place.
My particular Craftsman motorcycle jack has a pretty wide base for stability, and the wheels kept running into the center stand feet and making life miserable when we were trying to get the rear bolts in place. To rectify this, I slipped the clutch push rod through the rear engine mounts and slipped a ratchet strap around the rod to lift the rear of the engine off the jack. This let me then reposition the jack so that the wheels weren't tangling in the center stand. I then repurposed the ratchet strap around the rear wheel to help align the center stand and engine mount holes. A few cranks on the ratchet and a few taps with the rubber dead blow and the rear bolts popped right in.
We went ahead and torqued everything, which in hindsight was a mistake, as my engine bars use four of those engine mounting bolts. (I would still get all four inserted and snugged gently though, as it is then easy to remove one at a time to mount the engine bars while the other three bolts keep everything where it should be. Trying to mount the bars as you insert the very first bolt would be a cluster fuck.) Also, the oil pressure switch which lies at the very back of the sump is a right bitch to get a wire onto once it gets buried behind the suspension. Were I doing this again, I would mount the wire before lifting the rear of the engine into place. I was a good hour fumble farting around on my back trying to get that prick into place. It's on the same wire as the neutral switch, and I had made no notes or taken any pictures of where these were routed, so I fit them where I could.

Here is the engine lowered onto the jack prior to rolling it into place

Here is the clutch pushrod and the ratchet strap to lift the engine to reposition the jack

Ratchet strap around the wheel and frame to align the rear mount holes and center stand

Here is the right side view with the engine back in the frame

Here is the left side view after installing the chain and sprocket

Rear 3/4 view of the same thing

Once the engine is in place, you need to put everything else back together. I had numbered and bagged everything as I was taking it apart, so for me it was mostly a matter of just putting things back on in reverse order. I also took photos as I went along, although I did miss some views which would have been very helpful.
Basically, there will be a bit of trial and error if you do not carefully document and label every single piece when you take it off. Here are some photos to help you with some of the tricky stuff that is not well illustrated in either the factory or Haynes manuals:

The small radiator hose and the clutch line both have to fit behind the bracket that goes on the inside of the rear radiator hose elbow. These fit between the intake holes for cylinders #1 and #2

I encourage you to replace the manifold studs because of all the heat/cold cycles that they experience. The new ones come with a sealer on the shorter threaded end which goes into the head. Simply use two of the new nuts, tightening one against the other so they can't slip, and turn the new studs in tight but don't snap them off. I could not find a torque value in either manual, so I did it by feel. In this photo you can also see the two radiator brackets which the engine mount bolts pass through. I actually mounted up the radiator to be sure everything fit correctly before I torqued those engine mounting bolts, then I removed the smaller side bolts that connect the two pieces of the brackets to remove the radiator to get it out of my way when doing the manifold. Once I was ready to reinstall the radiator, everything was lined up and easy peasy.

I also bought new crush sealing washers for the manifold. When you insert these, the sharp little square tabs should face outward. They will bend slightly as you push them into the head, the tabs then holding them in place while you align and mount the manifold. I used a pair of new torque wrenches on everything, and note that when tightening the manifold nuts, you need to do all six evenly, first finger tight and then gradually tightening a turn or so at a time so that the brackets remain parallel to the head. You will feel some real resistance once you begin to compress the copper crush washers, and you will be surprised at how many turns you will do before you hear that "click" from your torque wrench.

I put my skid plate back on first, and then the manifold. You may have to loosen things and wiggle pieces to get everything to slip into place. To get the engine bars and the left foot rest assembly to line up with the skid plate, I broke out my ratchet strap once again, and carefully cranked it until all three holes lined up. Any time you are dealing with a welded component like engine bars, it is likely that shrinkage during cooling will affect their fit, so some judicious drilling or tweaking may be in order.

Here's the alignment problem

And here is the ratchet strap solution

Some other tips:

I used some blue hylomar on the cover side of the gaskets to keep them from slipping. A light coat of grease on the engine side of the gasket, and they will come off easily without tearing.

Be sure to double check your torque job as you do it. I forgot to tighten the two coolant drain nuts with the copper washers, but quickly discovered my mistake when I got a couple liters of new coolant into the system :icon_eek:  Today when I took it for its first break in ride, I discovered that I also forgot to connect the power for the cooling fan.

Overall, once I had the engine ready to go back in the frame, I expected it to take me one day to get it back on the road. That turned into three days. Have some patience and take plenty of pictures and notes. One big issue was that I tore this down at the beginning of summer, and didn't get back to it until the end. Those intervening weeks allowed a lot of memory to seep out of my head, and I'm just glad that I numbered and labeled everything as well as I did.

By the way, it cranked for maybe 3 seconds before it fired right up today, and I did 290 miles with no issues at all. I did notice that coming down a steep and long road on Blue Mountain it held 3000 RPMS in 6th gear without budging, so the engine compression must be much tighter. Transmission shifts like butter, and even around the 3000 RPM threshold where it normally trembles like a baby wetting its diaper, it was smooth, smooth, smooth. The only downside was my typical 40+ mpg was only 37 at my first fill up. I guess with so many new bearings and rings, etc., that the internal friction is likely higher, and the mileage will get back there once I break her in some more.
It was a challenge to keep it under 4500 RPMS all day, as this is about 70 MPH, but it was just awesome to ride this wonderful machine again after so many weeks!
Definitely all ready for a cross country trip!

Title: Re: Engine Rebuild
Post by: ssevy on September 17, 2017, 06:04:57 AM
Here it is all finished and ready to gently :augie break in
Title: Re: Engine Rebuild
Post by: Timbox2 on September 17, 2017, 08:31:38 AM
Impressed mate, well done, happy riding :icon_salut:
Title: Re: Engine Rebuild
Post by: Beernard on September 17, 2017, 09:56:46 AM
Fantastic effort! And thanks for all the excellent info and hard-earned tips. Enjoy the next 100,000!
Title: Re: Engine Rebuild
Post by: London_Phil on September 17, 2017, 10:34:04 AM
Bike looks fantastic ssevy, much respect due.
Admired your dedication, and I'm sure the Forum really appreciates the info and photos you have provided.



Title: Re: Engine Rebuild
Post by: tonytiger on September 17, 2017, 08:50:06 PM
Well done Ssevy  :5moped
Title: Re: Engine Rebuild
Post by: threepot on September 17, 2017, 10:22:23 PM
Nice job ssevy,bike looks really nice. Strange,but since I removed the head on my Super3 to do the inlet valves,the engine seems a lot smoother,and less mechanical noise? Maybe we're reassembling them better than the factory did? :icon_wink:
Title: Re: Engine Rebuild
Post by: Sidk on September 18, 2017, 11:24:10 AM
I bask in your awesomeness!  :eusa_clap
Title: Re: Engine Rebuild
Post by: Geoff W on September 18, 2017, 10:03:34 PM
First quality job and write up, well done.
Title: Re: Engine Rebuild
Post by: ssevy on September 19, 2017, 01:02:33 AM
I pulled the fairings and tank off to get to the radiator, as I wanted to check the coolant level. There was some sticky stuff on the cap, and it must have been the excess hylomar working its way up and out. Although my beads looked about like those in the two service manuals, you may want to use a bit less?
Did another 200 miles today, and it runs the best it ever has. Checked the oil, and no coolant contamination, so I think I'm good to go. Will change the oil at about 700 miles, per the machinist' advice.
Title: Re: Engine Rebuild
Post by: threepot on September 19, 2017, 11:03:09 PM
Out of curiosity,are you using a  specific oil to 'run in'?
Title: Re: Engine Rebuild
Post by: ssevy on September 20, 2017, 12:23:15 AM
I use Amsoil in everything. Well over 200,000 on both cars, and it gave me the smoothest shifting feel compared to the Mobil 1 and Royal Purple I tried first.
Title: Re: Engine Rebuild
Post by: threepot on September 20, 2017, 04:20:08 PM
Different oil brands here are popular,such as Castrol,Silkolene,Shell,Motul. Although I have seen Mobil,and Amsol advertised on weebay? I just thought your machinist would've recommended you run 'mineral' for the first 50-100mls to' bed' the rings?
Title: Re: Engine Rebuild
Post by: ssevy on September 20, 2017, 06:32:04 PM
No he didn't. Interesting how different techniques and approaches to the same thing become traditional in a particular place? He impressed me with his knowledge, which was well-earned over many years, so I trust his judgement.
As for oil, I think brand is pretty meaningless as long as it is full synthetic. I chose mine because for my particular bike, boots and riding technique, it gave me the smoothest shifting. Certainly the others I tried would have protected the inner workings of the engine just as well, but for me personally, the shifting was not as smooth and repeatable. I also have easy access to Amsoil, so that was a factor too.
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