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Tiger Time => Steamers (1993-1998 Tigers) => Topic started by: ssevy on April 26, 2021, 01:50:01 AM

Title: Front wheel noise
Post by: ssevy on April 26, 2021, 01:50:01 AM
Hi guys,
I'm in the middle of my cross country ride, currently in Flagstaff AZ. At the end of my ride yesterday, I noticed a cyclical sound from the front end, and when I put it on the center stand and spun the front tire, everything turned fine.
Today at the end of my ride I noticed the same sound again. My concern is that I have never dealt with a wheel bearing issue, and wondered if someone can tell me about those symptoms and how soon they need to be addressed?
I have been running some slab to make up days I lost due to snow, so that wheel


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Title: Re: Front wheel noise
Post by: ssevy on April 26, 2021, 01:51:34 AM
Has been spinning at 75 mph for long hours.
Any feedback is appreciated!


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Title: Re: Front wheel noise
Post by: Nick Calne on April 26, 2021, 07:29:43 AM
It could also be your speedo drive. Perhaps pop the wheel off inspect all including bearings. If nothing is apparently wrong then some more grease all round and take it from there.
Title: Re: Front wheel noise
Post by: Lee337 on April 26, 2021, 09:56:42 AM
Bearings usually make a rumbling sound. With the wheel off the ground you might be able to feel sideways movement. grab the top & bottom of the wheel and you should be able to feel some movement when rocking it side to side if the wheel bearings are on their way out. If there is any lateral movement, change the bearings - you really don't want one of them failing while you're riding

It sounds more like the speedo drive, or possibly brakes.
Title: Re: Front wheel noise
Post by: Sin_Tiger on April 26, 2021, 11:06:52 AM
It's possible that a bearing/s has gotten worn to the stage that, although not bad enough to rumble, has just enough clearance that it's developing a harmonic vibration that is evident when several factors such as speed, temperature, balance, tyre wear pattern, wheel spoke tension, road surface, weight / luggage distribution, rear preload and others are in alignment. If you can change it by altering one or more influences such as speed, tyre pressure, even riding with the bike at a slight angle to disrupt that harmonic, then that would suggest this is what is happening. Although I've seen similar effects on all sorts of rotating machinery, I've only ever come across this in similar prolonged higher speeds on highways on the front when the tyre blocks started cupping as they do, and managed to alleviate it enough to get to my destination in a safe manner. I'm not suggesting this is the case with your situation, more as an example of how altering one factor can disrupt the cumulative effect.

If I were in a similar situation with a longer ride ahead, I'd be tempted to get into a bike shop for a change of bearings, check the rim / spokes, perhaps even turn the tyre around the rim and rebalance it. I know it's time and expense but at the very least you could eliminate many of the factors without major mechanical surgery and give you confidence in the front end when it needs to perform. If it is still evident, then it might be a "tail wagging the dog" situation and you need to look at the back end. I'm guessing on this trip you'll be even more loaded up than usual for a camp trip.
Title: Re: Front wheel noise
Post by: Nick Calne on April 26, 2021, 02:34:27 PM
Elective and preventative mechanical surgery is always better than mandated corrective medical surgery.
Title: Re: Front wheel noise
Post by: ssevy on April 26, 2021, 03:20:08 PM
Thanks gentlemen. I did check the wheel for sideplay and the timing of the cyclical sound would make me think brake pad. In preparation for this trip I installed new pads, and while the calipers were out, I went ahead and put new seal kits in all of them and polished the pistons. New fluid everywhere as well, and I think having done this, I immediately dismissed brake sounds as a possibility?
If I had left the brakes as is, this sound would have instantly lead me to a brake pad rubbing a bit, and I think that is probably the issue. I'll be in Los Angeles on Tuesday, so can have a closer look in my daughters garage.
I have my tool roll on board, but it doesn't have everything I need to do a bearing replacement. Maybe grab some cheap tools at my daughters and replace the bearings. Tough to trust a shop, unfortunately.
Many thanks for your replies; lots of helpful info there.


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Title: Re: Front wheel noise
Post by: Nick Calne on April 26, 2021, 10:14:11 PM
Just let us know you got there.
Title: Re: Front wheel noise
Post by: Sin_Tiger on April 26, 2021, 11:05:07 PM
There are two things that I often find get overlooked with these brakes.

1) I always remove the slider plate and the rubber boots for the pins for a complete clean out including the cavity in the caliper and re-grease with CV grease which is my preference or red rubber grease should also be fine. It can come as a surprise how quickly general purpose grease can harden up if it's not kept in motion as it would be in say a bearing.

2) There is a tiny wee hole in the master cylinder that often gets missed, even old fluid can cause a restriction or blockage and once that happens it can prevent the fluid returning when you release the brake lever, it also makes it harder to bleed the system after work. The hole is only about 0.2mm so it's easy to miss but it's usually easily cleared with a strand of copper wire.

Apologies if you know about these points or have addressed them already  :icon_redface: if you need photo's just shout.

As Nick says  :new_popcornsmiley ride safe  :thumbsup
Title: Re: Front wheel noise
Post by: ssevy on April 27, 2021, 03:37:14 AM
Well, today I abruptly lost the rear brake. Haven't got all the luggage off to pull the side cover and check the fluid.
Was working fine this morning, as I hardly ever use it except occasionally when trail braking or during walking speed stuff.
The disc looks really dark, so I'm wondering if my foot was resting on the pedal without me realizing it?
I was riding against very strong headwinds all day, and that feels just like a brake dragging, so who knows?
I did clean and regrease those pockets with red rubber grease, but I did not run a wire through the return holes, although I used brake cleaner and compressed air to clean the cylinders.
Engine wise, the bike has been perfect, so these issues are the adventure part of adventure traveling I guess.


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Title: Re: Front wheel noise
Post by: Lee337 on April 27, 2021, 11:01:05 AM
Had that happen on an Aprilia RSV while away from home - much rather the back brake go than the front.

Hope you get it sorted
Title: Re: Front wheel noise
Post by: Sin_Tiger on April 27, 2021, 01:28:54 PM
You're right, that is almost certainly been dragging. hope you've caught it before the pads wore out or the disc got too hot  :icon_eek:  Might have been a case of the rear affecting the front after all then. The rear master has that tiny hole in it as well.  ;)
Title: Re: Front wheel noise
Post by: ssevy on April 27, 2021, 04:29:02 PM
I just pumped the pedal and fluid came out the caliper, so must have ruined my new seals.
Anyone know what the t-size is for the two caliper bolts?
How about the caliper slide pin hex driver?
Another caliper rebuild I guess...


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Title: Re: Front wheel noise
Post by: Sin_Tiger on April 27, 2021, 06:12:56 PM
Probably more info than you need:-

Caliper Mounting Screws - M10x1.25, Torx T55, 40Nm
Pad Retaining Pins - Hex M5, 18Nm

I would say the seal failure is most likely a symptom of heat generated by prolonged pad contact and you'd best look elsewhere for the root cause of the pads not releasing. I wouldn't blame yourself for resting on the brake pedal for long enough to cause that, you've been riding the same bike for too many years and thousands of miles, I'd say it would be very uncharacteristic  :nod

If we assume that the rim / hub is running true and the disc run out is within limits, then the other two suspects are:-

1) The caliper not being able to move on the slider pins, you've done those but worth a second look in case the prolonged heat has caused any damage. The caliper not correctly positioned relative to the disc, worth checking the reaction arm and it's retaining screws, I'd recommend some medium screw lock on the threads when reassembling. While you've got them out, also check the caliper mounting bracket, there is a bush that gets clamped when the axle is tightened up but the main part of the bracket should be free to rotate around that bush, it can only move a few mm either side even with the reaction arm disconnected as the lug that sits in the axle bobbin recess will stop it going too far. It's not likely to cause the issue you've experienced but another possible factor eliminated.

2) The next and most likely culprit is the hydraulics. Since you were able to push fluid out of the caliper it would be reasonable to assume the hose is clear. The master cylinder is the main suspect, although unlikely from what you're saying the pedal and push rod linkage is worth a looking at. My money is on the master cylinder, with any luck at all the rubber bits will still be OK but it's possible during maintenance loose debris is blocking fluid or restricting movement of the piston, a broken spring is possible but less likely. See below for my favourite suspect tiny orifice  ;)

If you can't get genuine Triumph parts or want to save a few $, try a Honda or other Japanese parts dealers. These Nissin 27mm calipers and 14mm master cylinders were very common and still are, guess what's on the back of my Trophy 1215  :nod the only differences were the mounting plates and bleed nipple orientation.

My preferred method of bleeding brakes in the field, is to unclip the hose as much as possible to allow the caliper to be lifted higher than the reservoir, stick a block of wood or similar in the pad gap which allows you to bleed the caliper one handed and see clearly what's happening without being on your hands and knees (mine can't take it anymore  :icon_rolleyes:) and trying to put load on the pedal or lever at the same time.

I hope you find the cause quickly so that repairs don't eat into your family time, which is why you went all that way int the first place and have a good  :rrr as well of course.

:new_popcornsmiley
Title: Re: Front wheel noise
Post by: Bixxer Bob on April 27, 2021, 07:07:26 PM
I boiled the rear brake on my 955 in the Alps. Long series of downhill hairpins using a lot of rear brake due to lots of gravel.  Blued the disc too.  Eventually came back to me once it called down. 

As Sin says, if the slide pins are seized, even though you cleaned the pistons, it will bind enough to to blue the disc. But it sounds like you've gone further and cooked the seals.
Title: Re: Front wheel noise
Post by: ssevy on April 27, 2021, 07:19:29 PM
Thanks for all of that!
Just what I needed!
I'll look everything over, but I suspect it was my foot on the pedal for two reasons:
1- the headwinds were so strong for the last 3 hours that I was tucked as low as possible, in a position in which I never ride, and my tall boots don't have much flex, so it is reasonable to think the pads were in contact with the rotor just enough to generate heat.
2- those headwinds felt very similar to a dragging brake, so I wouldn't have necessarily noticed. I was doing long uninterrupted sections between tank fill ups, so there was no opportunity to see or smell anything since the wind was blowing everything behind me.

When I mounted the new tires and rebuilt the calipers, I went over everything except this return holes, so I'll definitely check those out.
I have the Honda part number for the caliper seals. Anyone know the Honda parts for the rear mc?

Thanks Sin!


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Title: Re: Front wheel noise
Post by: bemusedinsojo on April 27, 2021, 08:27:00 PM
Holy cow you are in my neck of the woods. I am in Chinle on the Navajo Nation. The wind hasn't stopped blowing for three weeks or more. If you come back this way on your return (1 hour north of I40) I have food and a place to crash and four beers left in the fridge.
I hope you got to stop at that big ol' hole in the ground on the way to Flagstaff. And in Winslow. I spent my 20s there drinking 50 cent beers until I floated. Lots of cool stuff to see if you can brave the wind this time of year.
Title: Re: Front wheel noise
Post by: bemusedinsojo on April 27, 2021, 08:31:29 PM
BTW I lost my rear going down a forest service road near SLC. I was dragging the brake and it faded. You are in some high mountains and maybe dragging also. Just remove the rear pedal and lower it a bit. Riding boots make you drag it.
Title: Re: Front wheel noise
Post by: Nick Calne on April 27, 2021, 09:54:25 PM
Move the pedal lower.  There's a good bit of advice.
Title: Re: Front wheel noise
Post by: Sin_Tiger on April 28, 2021, 01:24:18 AM
Quote from: Nick Calne on April 27, 2021, 09:54:25 PM
Move the pedal lower.  There's a good bit of advice.

That's not a bad idea, considering how you're used to using the rear brake.

When you put the prevailing riding conditions in the frame like that it becomes a bit more plausible. Free  :occasion14  and hospitality  :thumbsup
Title: Re: Front wheel noise
Post by: ssevy on April 28, 2021, 06:18:47 AM
Didn't think the rear brake pedal was adjustable? Will definitely do that if it's possible.
I arrived at my daughter's okay, although negotiating LA traffic without a rear brake was stressful. It was hard to maintain a large gap ahead for a longer stopping distance, as cars kept jumping in the space.
I found the master cylinder piston and seal kit in San Diego, and some Honda seals for the rear caliper here in LA. My wife is flying out to join us tomorrow, and she is bringing the correct 3/8 bits for the caliper job, my specially-modified Kelly clamp for removing the master cylinder circlip, my red rubber grease, and I borrowed a torque wrench for the job here locally.
Probably tear it apart tomorrow night and then see just what I am up against?
Thanks for all the helpful info- it's tough not having a factory manual and my tool collection here, and my tool roll does not include everything needed for a master cylinder and caliper overhaul, so the specific info on fastener sizes and torques was essential Sin!
I'll keep you posted.


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Title: Re: Front wheel noise
Post by: Sin_Tiger on April 28, 2021, 03:59:03 PM
Glad you made it one piece  :thumbsup that's admirable in what I image was dreadful traffic.

Someone needs to carry the hairdryer  ;)
Title: Re: Front wheel noise
Post by: bemusedinsojo on April 28, 2021, 04:37:56 PM
A brave thing indeed. LA traffic is brutal.
Title: Re: Front wheel noise
Post by: ssevy on May 01, 2021, 05:05:01 PM
I got the rear caliper apart last night, and the seals were melted into a single dark band that had partially squeezed out of the top of each cylinder. I was able to twist the pistons and get them out, and now I need to get a round wire brush to clean up the grooves. The rubber boots both survived, but they need replacing when I get back home.
I have previously rebuilt both the front master cylinder and the clutch master cylinder, but not the rear. I was able to get the snap ring and intake elbow out after much wiggling. The o-ring should be replaced - does anyone know the size?
The electric switch at the top end I assume is threaded? In any case, it wouldn't budge, and I didn't want to break it off.
The lower shackle for the pedal and the rubber boot both came off with no issues. I couldn't believe those nuts were not rusted on tight!
The snap ring hasn't surrendered yet after several tries, as there is some corrosion on the bottom side of the plunger cap. I couldn't get a replacement locally, so I am being very careful with the snap ring.
The pedal height adjustment is the shackle at the end of the plunger rod, and unfortunately, I was already at the pedal's lowest setting, so there is no more adjustment left.
Usually I have my two repair manuals at hand, so I am flying by the seat of my pants on this one. Hopefully grab a cheap drill and some wire brushes today and maybe a different pair of snap ring pliers. Haven't even looked at how bad the rotor is warped - if the brake works and there is some pulsing in the pedal I can live with it until I get home to my own garage and tools.


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Title: Re: Front wheel noise
Post by: Sin_Tiger on May 02, 2021, 01:10:55 AM
Getting somewhere with it then. Rear switch being solid often means it's never been off, heating the body with a hot air gun or hairdryer (see I knew it would be handy  :icon_lol:) can do the trick.

I use some scrapers made from old hacksaw blades for cleaning out the grooves, if you have access to a grinder or disc cutter it might save you a lot of effort. I usually won't use anything harsher than Scotchbrite in the bore, I don't expect you'll have one available but you might be able to improvise by cutting up some pads mounted on a bolt with a couple of washers and a nut, stick it in a drill and it could do the job.

The section is a front master but essentially the same components. I don't think there should be an O ring in there, unless what you're seeing is the remains of the dust cover / boot.

At a later date, you could cut a few more threads into the rod / trim the length to get you a bit more boot clearance, I think it's just a standard M8 thread.

:new_popcornsmiley

Title: Re: Front wheel noise
Post by: ssevy on May 02, 2021, 03:53:47 AM
Thanks Sin!
I got an assortment of small copper brushes and used those with a drill to clean the bores and the seal grooves, and they worked well. I bought a cheap pair of snap ring pliers from Harbor Freight, and they actually worked okay to remove both snap rings. The o-ring I couldn't source, so the old one went back into the intake side of the master cylinder. The rebuild kit had new rubber parts, piston and spring, and I really took care when stretching the new rubber seal into its place on the base of the plunger. Used a pair of needle nose pliers to stretch it over the end and then slide it into place.
System is all back together now, and I bought some Motul rbf600 fluid to put in. A CVS pharmacy gave me a couple of small plastic syringes, but they don't have rubber seals, so no help in refilling. I usually use a big syringe and fill through the bleeder screw uphill to the reservoir, and the air naturally is going uphill. When the syringe didn't work today, I tried filling the reservoir and bleeding through the caliper banjo bolt, but no luck yet. Hoping to find a better syringe when stores open tomorrow.


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Title: Re: Front wheel noise
Post by: Sin_Tiger on May 02, 2021, 06:11:54 PM
 :BangHead I forgot about that O ring  :icon_rolleyes:

It isn't available separately and I haven't been able to come up with a size after digging around, I was going to take a spare apart to measure it but since you've managed to get it all back together  :thumbsup Good progress.

Title: Re: Front wheel noise
Post by: ssevy on May 02, 2021, 09:54:51 PM
Found a big syringe tool at Autozone, and brakes are all bled and finished. Great firm pedal, and no pulsing when I spin the wheel on the center stand. In real use, this may change, but I think I am good to go.
Have a half bottle of the expensive Motul fluid, so may change out the fronts even though they have new Amsoil fluid in them.
Hate to waste $27 brake fluid


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Title: Re: Front wheel noise
Post by: Sin_Tiger on May 03, 2021, 12:37:25 AM
 :thumbsup hope all the extra work and expense didn't spoil the family get together and the ride home is a bit more enjoyable weather wise and trouble free  :icon_cool:
Title: Re: Front wheel noise
Post by: ssevy on May 03, 2021, 01:44:11 AM
Thanks so much for those kind thoughts! We had perfect weather and a great time, and aside from chasing parts, the actual work on the bike was probably no more than a couple of hours, so did not interfere with our plans.
Going to take it easier on the way east. Probably just set a destination and let the app route me. Too frustrating doing all of those carefully constructed routes beforehand and then having the app crash again.
Going to stick to Scenic or Google Maps and be done with it. I'll wait and get my iPhone camera fixed after the ride, as apparently the vibrations being mounted on the bars killed the camera focus mechanism.
Hopefully any wind will be at my back this time!


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Title: Re: Front wheel noise
Post by: Sin_Tiger on May 03, 2021, 08:19:59 PM
 :rrr Be comforted in the knowledge that it snowed on the hills around us today  :* :^_^
Title: Re: Front wheel noise
Post by: Beernard on May 28, 2021, 11:22:15 AM
Gday Sin.
First, thanks for all your excellent input on this forum. Second, I just want to say I love your brake caliper groove cleaner tools. First class.
Regards, Bern.
Title: Re: Front wheel noise
Post by: Sin_Tiger on June 02, 2021, 12:58:03 AM
Thanks mate, effective and really cheap, what can I say I'm a Jock  :bad
Title: Re: Front wheel noise
Post by: ssevy on June 12, 2021, 10:17:44 PM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210612/f7eed4b3177efc1a041996c5f2dcf57f.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210612/8fe47a2b64d2d057847b1b4e9021949d.jpg)
My overheated rear rotor.


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Title: Re: Front wheel noise
Post by: Sin_Tiger on June 13, 2021, 12:31:33 AM
 :bug_eye that'll make a nice salad bowl  ;)

And here's what happens when one piston / slider jams.

Title: Re: Front wheel noise
Post by: ssevy on June 23, 2021, 03:20:09 AM
Installed my new rear disc today, and recleaned all the rusty bits, then applied some RPM rust inhibitor. Never used it before, but auto restorers seem to like it, so I'll see how it works on a bike.
You heat the part with a heat gun and brush the powder on and it melts in.


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Title: Re: Front wheel noise
Post by: Sin_Tiger on June 23, 2021, 11:25:23 PM
sounds a bit like manual powder coating  :icon_scratch: but hey if it works  :m
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