Hi. My 2003 has a 19t front sprocket. On my honda I can crawl along in traffic in both 1st and 2nd, off the throttle and it's very smooth. On my tiger I can't do this, it lugs and I need to ride the clutch. Am I being unrealistic expecting the smoothness of the honda st1300? Would changing the sprocket to 18t make a difference? I'm not bothered about top end speed, just want the smoothness as I commute alot in slow traffic. Many thanks.
Q) Am I being unrealistic expecting the smoothness of the honda st1300?
A) Sorry, yes
Q) Would changing the sprocket to 18t make a difference?
A) Yes, a bit
Its Triumphs early attempt at FI, and its, well, different. But you could just try checking that all the IACV hoses are good, particularly if its got a scottoiler, and that valve clearances within spec etc etc. When were the TB's last balanced?
Their race (TOR) tune helps a lot, too.
What Tim said. I've said it many times before but the single best thing you can do for your Girly is the throttle body balance. They are very sensitive to it and they go out fairly easily. For the cost of doing it at a dealer you can buy a good set of gauges and learn to do it yourself. With practice tank off is 10 minutes and balance is another 5. I used to do mine every time I had the tank off, and every service, and every time it started doing as you describe.
Hi. Thanks for that. Sync done. Had it dynoed. Ran really well for short time and now back to running less well. Suspecting a mechanical issue now. I've done all the vacuum tubes, checked that there isn't an air leak by spraying carb cleaner into running engine. Tuneecu doesn't throw up any faults and test of stepper shows good. Coils?
Quote from: t4tiger on November 26, 2017, 09:52:14 AM
Hi. Thanks for that. Sync done. Had it dynoed. Ran really well for short time and now back to running less well. Suspecting a mechanical issue now. I've done all the vacuum tubes, checked that there isn't an air leak by spraying carb cleaner into running engine. Tuneecu doesn't throw up any faults and test of stepper shows good. Coils?
Possible, look at the coil readings in Tune ECU, what you are looking for is a coil thats readings are out compared to the others. If you start from cold you may even see the reading change as the engine gets hot. The other part that is known to fail with heat is the crank pos sensor, though must admit more common on the old steamers than Girlies.
Try an 02 eliminator plug their a tenner off eBay.
And yes your are being unrealistic very!!! As Tim said it was Triumphs second shot at fuel injection if you assume the 885i was the first and the suspension was on the same level!! But hey they had to start somewhere.
Quote from: t4tiger on November 26, 2017, 09:52:14 AM
Hi. Thanks for that. Sync done. Had it dynoed. Ran really well for short time and now back to running less well. Suspecting a mechanical issue now. I've done all the vacuum tubes, checked that there isn't an air leak by spraying carb cleaner into running engine. Tuneecu doesn't throw up any faults and test of stepper shows good. Coils?
I worked on Chris's once, in TuneECU I noticed that the dwell, ie the number of milliseconds the coil takes to recover was slightly longer than the other two and I'd previously read (while sorting a FI car) that it's an early indication of future failure. Chris doesn't mess about and replaced it which sorted his problem immediately if I remember correctly.
His suggestion of trying an O2 bypass is a good one, you might even prove my theory if done as I said earlier because I do think you have here a case of "It's ok after a remap but the ECU trims it till it's crap again..." I've thought all along that the target O2 values in the firmware decreed by Triumph and stored as values in trim tables inaccessible to us mortals are simply wrong. The base map and trim values work but the target values that the ECU trims to using O2 readings don't. Fitting an O2 bypass disconnects the O2 sensor and at the same time fools the ECU into thinking it's still connected so (I think) locking the ECU at base settings and preventing the ECU trimming to the crap ones. For a tenner you can prove me right or wrong and maybe open up a solution for many other people.
Interesting. When I had it dynoed the chap removed the O2 eliminator telling me that if the mil light didn't come on, which it didn't, it wasn't needed. Right or wrong? With regards to coils, should the milliseconds be exactly the same throughout rev range or is it that they change at a different rate that indicates an issue? Thanks
Before things get too complicated,are you saying the bike had an 02 eliminator and he took it out or did he disconnect 02/Lamaba sensor.
Oh yea the coil we could see that the middle coil was down compared to the other 2,put a new one in and you could tell straight away by how the motor ran,my only complaint it was 100 quid from Fowler's you can now buy them from World of Triumph for £50!!
Hi Chris. It had one on it and he took it off. I'll hopefully get around to looking at coils this weekend.
Like Chris says it's usually the middle one as it runs hot compared with the other two. The two outside coils gave similar readings at whatever revs we tried. The centre one lagged behind the other two slightly.
If your man unplugged the O2 sensor BYPASS and DIDN'T re-connect the sensor then you SHOULD have had a mil light warning and fault code. I do not understand why you would not because that's how it works.
To save taking the tank off to look, connect TuneECU and start it up. The O2 voltage should be a nominal 0.46 volts but will swing if the sensor is fitted. The range is 0.0v - .9v
I'm getting a little lost here :icon_scratch:
You took your Tiger to a man with a dyno?
What did he do with the bike on the dyno?
Did he try to remap the ECU if he didn't what was the idea of the dyno run.
Or if he did how did he do it?
How is the bike running now compared to how it was before your dyno run and can you tell the difference since the 02 spoofer was taken off.
When I got bike, it was running well except for at tick over and at small throttle openings. Did all the vacuum tube stuff and confirmed no air leak. Still issues. Dyno man put correct map in earlier tor rather than later, and adjusted the mapping. Ran brilliantly on throttle, super smooth. But still not brill off throttle although a lot better. Plan was to ride for a while and then return for final adjust. After riding for a while it has deteriorated across the rev range, this this thread. At that first session we found 02 eliminator attached and he said all it did was stop mil light from coming on. He took it off and left lead tucked under tank. Mil light did not come on. All adjustments done then. I spoke with triumph mech at local garage and he confirmed about O2 eliminator so it's still off. That's why I'm going down mechanical route. The improvement over what I thought was a well running bike was amazing so I am inclined to trust the Dyno man. Hope that helps.
I'm intrigued it's the first time i've Ever read of a Tiger being put on a dyno and had a factory map adjusted,its always been done with piggyback fuelling and even that is a rarity,most posts are about different maps with a very small amount of tinkering.
As to the 02 eliminator using your Dyno mans logic if it doesn't do any more than stop the Mil light coming on why take it off :icon_scratch:,i've tried an 02 eliminator many a time over the years maybe it does just stop the mil light coming on and nothing else apart from stopping the Kamba working i've Never been a fan it kills the motor higher up the Rev range,but yours is an interesting story that certainly hasn't turned up before i'd Imagined plenty more will want to see how it goes.
Not sure if I've confused the issue. He replaced 10173 with 10121 and then started changing various numbers, particularly on the a/f screen. I've called that adjusting the map. Is that the same as you call piggybacking?
Nope piggyback is wireing in another device to overrule the ECU ie either a Power Commander or Rapidbike.
I've two bikes that have Power Commanders and the Maps they run are as good as the day they were set up on the Dyno in some ways Triumph were ahead of their time because of you being able to access the ECU with various maps but a dead cert it ain't.
There's one major problem you can put what ever map and mod you like into the ECU it has a mind of its own and the one thing you can be sure of it won't stay that way.
Hence why I said i'm Intrigued apart from some years ago when folks would bodge a PC off a 955 Daytona onto a Tiger I can't recall anyone having one on a dyno let alone someone comercialy using Tune ECU.
Just to show what can be done I have a K1200 with a Rexxer map no piggy back just an aftermarket map blown into the ECU similar to what can be done with the Tiger but the map doesn't Go wandering off and doing its own thing like the Triumph offering does,but please carry on i'd Say several of us on here will be interested in what you are doing.
If he changed table values and it ran great, but now it doesn't, that points to the ECU trimming it away from the table value. The table value stays the same but the unseen trim table changes it. Which points to him having re-connected the O2 sensor.
To try to help, this is how it works. All the O2 bypass does is provide a resistor (4.7k ohm if I remember right but don't quote me) so the ECU sees the expected 0.46v return from the O2 sensor and so thinks all is well.
If you disconnect the Bypass but don't connect the O2 sensor the ECU sees an open circuit, logs a fault code and illuminates the MIL light.
So either your tech re-connected the O2 sensor , which is what I think happened because the bike is behaving exactly as it would with it connected, ie, great after a new map but trims itself till it's back to being jerky at low throttle, or something weird is going on. That could be either a faulty ECU ( in which case I'd expect other thing s to be wrong too) or you have a high resistance short that is fooling the ECU that the O2 is connected. There isn't any way to change the ECU software to turn off the MIL light if the O2 plug isn't connected to something. Just thought while I was typing this, the MIL light does work though, doesn't it???? We're not looking at a blow lamp or wiring fault on the MIL circuit?
Looking at it mnore widely, the ECU delivers the fuel air mixture in a ratio defined by the map tables stored in it depending on engine speed, air and engine temp, air pressure, throttle position and engine load. The values in the map tables are tweaked to some extend by a set of trim values. The only trim values visible in Tune ECU are the LTFT which should normally never need changing, the warmup tickover setting and IACV setting (not really trims but are adjustable so worth mentioning), and the base value for the injectors which should never be touched unless you really know what you are doing because serious damage can result. In this state when the map is fresh the bike will run great. But over time things that can affect the fuelling can change, resulting in a rich or weak mix. Rich wastes fuel, weak can cause damage, so the ECU has a set of base values that it expects to see from the O2 sensor and adjusts the fuelling based on these.
How the ECU uses the O2 sensor when riding, in simple terms, is like this. When a set of circumstances are met (engine temp, gear selection, clutch position, idle etc) the ECU reads the voltage return from the O2 sensor. If the exhaust gas is correct the sensor will return 0.46v and nothing happens. If the exhaust gas is rich so there is little O2 present the O3 sensor will rise to around 0.9v. The ECU sees that and trims the mixture lean in small steps to compensate. Similarly, if the exhaust gas is lean, the O2 sensor will return 0.1v, the ECU will read that and trim the mixture slightly richer to compensate.
From that you can see that the O2 sensor plays an important part in how the ECU controls the fueling as the bike is used. Your Tech's statement that all the Bypass does is stop the MIL light coming on is ok as far as it goes, but the act of disconnecting the O2 sensor has a much more far-reaching effect.
There are a few things that can affect this whole delicately balanced setup.
You've already eliminated the IACV hoses so we'll leave that there.
Atmospheric pressure sensor fault.
Air temp sensor fault.
Engine temp sensor fault.
Throttle position sensor fault.
O2 Sensor fault.
Plugs.
Coils.
Airbox leaks.
Exhaust header leaks.
Any of these can affect whether the exhaust gas is rich or lean compared with an expected value and thus cause the ECU to trim accordingly when, in actual fact there may be a fault to fix. The most common is the IACV hose air leak causing the mix to be lean and the ECU trying to correct that but can't and leads to a massively rich setting.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not rubbishing your dyno man or anyone else, but this is a 16 yr old system that was designed when a lot of Triumph techs were still at school. Hell, our local Triumph dealer won't fault find on these old bikes now because none of the young(ish) techs were ever taught how they work. A base knowledge will save you time searching for something that isn't there and help you look in the right places.
I'm thinking about this as I'm writing, and it occurs to me that if you have a fault on one of the items listed, and the O2 is disonnected, the tech could have trimmed out the fault using the tables, however, the only way it could go off again is for the fault to be getting worse. My money is still on the O2 having been re- connected, with the caviat that I'm doing this with a very very long screwdriver and I can't do my own fault inding.
Thanks for this. I appreciate the clear explanation. I can confirm that the O2 sensor is disconnected and there is not an O2 eliminator fitted. The plug is simply cable tied to the frame under the tank. Mil light works. O2 sensor fault is noted by tuneecu. I'll re read this several times and then talk to the Dyno chap.
I have never disconnected my 02 it's either been plugged into the loom or it's had the spoofer plugged in,but for anyone into aftermarket fuelling will know the merrygoround of 02's in or out and the two factions are opposed :icon_biggrin:,my K1200 that has a Rexxer map doesn't have the 02's connected its been done via the ECU,and i'm Just about embark on the same journey with my X/R it's not the aftermarket map that's the big decision it's the 02's in or out.
If there had been a solus piggyback option to bypass the ECU i'd Have done it years ago instead I just shrug my shoulders and let the bloody thing do what it likes within reason :icon_rolleyes:
Quote from: t4tiger on December 01, 2017, 01:58:06 PM
Thanks for this. I appreciate the clear explanation. I can confirm that the O2 sensor is disconnected and there is not an O2 eliminator fitted. The plug is simply cable tied to the frame under the tank. Mil light works. O2 sensor fault is noted by tuneecu. I'll re read this several times and then talk to the Dyno chap.
I'm looking forward to hearing what he has to say. This no MIL light situation has me intrigued as I've not come across it before. Perhaps I'm about to learn something new :icon_biggrin: After all, the world was flat until someone proved otherwise :icon_lol:
Yeah, but that was easy :icon_lol:
Anyway if the world was flat, cats would have pushed everything off by now!