'Came across a great offer a few weeks back on locally fabbed brake lines at a local shop "practicing" for track builds by volunteering to be a "beta". Similar in appearance to Galfer: Steel stranded braids sandwiched between a Teflon line and protective PVC sleeve. I've been looking forward to installing them, and as part of the weekend maintenance on some other items, figured they would be a quick job.
It was a pretty easy exercise in the swap. Bleeding was not too tough with my livestock syringe & 1/4" tubing. Finished off for good measure with an engaged brake grab for a few hours & a few gentle taps on the line and calipers to float out any remaining bubbles.
I drained the old lines and bagged them. Then I threw them into the "Box-o-Parts" that will likely sit on the garage shelf until I'm relocated in the Robot Uprising. When the landed in the box, I head a loud "click". I peered in, wondering what I'd hit. As I pulled the bag back out, up came a magnetized oil plug with it.
I suppose I like the "cleaner" look of 2 dedicated lines instead of that bodge-job-looking carry over from the right side over the fender to the left caliper, but can anyone else verify the OEM's were/are steel inside the plastic jacket for the Girlies (mine is a 2005)?
:nod
Well, at least the brake fluid is clean. :BangHead
Maybe a good excuse for a raised fender now, too.
Single lines: The "Gateway Farkle"?
Hello DB. I have aquired a new Tiger 800 m/c (14mm) and adjustable lever and along with that plan to fit the twin lines like you have done. Have you noticed any change in brake "feel" ?
Love your epic poems!
Besides a proper bleed, the best piece of work to change the feel of my front brake system was to rebuild the master cylinder and calipers last year. I used kits from Sprint Manufacturing. Given my then- decade-old tiger was likely in sore need of the care, I'm not sure you might expect the same outcome with your newer ride.
At the risk of getting this booted to the 800 forum, I have a buddy that used one of their kits to "upgrade" the master cylinder on his 800 to 5/8" from 14mm, and his handle travel is much diminished with a greater feel to the "bite" of the pads. It was pricey though, and I imagine one could get the same result by searching for salvage 5/8 Nissin set at a deep savings.
Sorry DB, maybe my post wasn't clear. I am fitting a 14mm Tiger 800 Nissin cylinder to my 2003 955i. At the moment the brakes are working fine, I'm just not keen on the soft feel of the lever, which is why I asked about the effect of your change to twin lines.
The standard cylinder is only 1/2" and I considered the other options, but decided that a 5/8" cylinder (which is used on twin 4 pot fronts) would end up being far too hard on the 955i twin 2 pot set-up.
The cylinder I am going to use is a brand new ebay job, so a big saving.
Ah, understood now, thanks.
To the point: I note only a modest improvement in "feel" of grab or lever travel.
I presume there's not more improvement due to the fact that the OEM lines were steel too, as confirmed by Bixxer Bob,& line flex wasn't likely an issue before or after the swap. Overall relative length of lines are similar, if not a little longer in the new set up, so fluid friction isn't much of a consideration. I didn't consider or review the internal diameter of the lines before the swap, but would guess they are similar.
I've put on a good amount of miles over the year since I rebuilt the master cylinder and calipers, so I'm not willing to attribute the marginal improvement to much more than the fluid swap and bleed at this point.
If it was me, I'd try the new master cylinder with the existing lines to see if you get the improvement you're looking for, before going with the additional expense of a 2 dedicated line set up.
I'm very interested to hear of your results.
Well, I'm off today for a few days touring the west coast of Ireland and plan to do the swap when I return, so I'll see how it goes and let you know.
The hydraulics are simple enough but from personal experience the key to getting both effective braking and feel/control, is getting a good combination of pad and disc. My own preferred make is EBC for both but others have found other combinations.
Well, I've just covered a few hundred miles with the standard set up and I am quite happy with the brake performance except for the issue of lever travel. I can't risk needing to brake hard using two fingers as the other fingers can get trapped between lever and bar stopping full braking. If I use the four fingers on the lever all works well though the lever ends up almost touching the bar at that stage.
In circumstances where ultra rapid response to a situation is required that is not ideal.
Time for a master cylinder rebuild :nod
Quote from: Sin_Tiger on August 06, 2016, 09:35:14 PM
Time for a master cylinder rebuild :nod
No, that's not the answer in this case. The brakes have always worked fine but there has always been too much lever travel right from new. The standard 1/2" cylinder is always going to be like that.
So this
(http://i648.photobucket.com/albums/uu206/GinDaemon/Tiger/SAM_23891_zps38qwadu0.jpg) (http://s648.photobucket.com/user/GinDaemon/media/Tiger/SAM_23891_zps38qwadu0.jpg.html)
is what I'll be fitting. It's the 14mm cylinder as used on the 800 Tiger, and comes as standard with an adjustable lever.
Eventually I'll also do the twin line mod as described by DynBlin.
Never had a stock master cylinder come back to the grip like that that I couldn't sort. Curious if you know the answer why you're asking :m
Umm. I was merely asking DynBlin if the twin line installation had any effect on the feel of the brakes.
Anyway, I have installed the 14mm master cylinder and it certainly firms everything up nicely. Now to get a few miles on the bike to test it for real.
Understood. It's always a difficult comparison new for old (see the tyre discussions :icon_rolleyes: ) interested to hear hire it goes just the same.
Quote from: Dyn Blin on August 04, 2016, 12:02:31 AM
If it was me, I'd try the new master cylinder with the existing lines to see if you get the improvement you're looking for, before going with the additional expense of a 2 dedicated line set up.
I'm very interested to hear of your results.
I have done as you suggested and I'm very happy with the result. Two fingers on the lever doesn't require as large an arc of operation to get the brakes to bite as with the standard cylinder.
The only caveat is that the adjustable lever has a second bolt through it as part of the adjustment system and this fouls the hand guard. I sorted that by a little judicious easing of the guard with a Dremel tool. The clearancing can't be seen after assembly.
I basically just did all the above over the past week or so. I upgrade to gaffers steel lines (2 lines from master cylinder). I rebuilt the front calipers as well as the master cylinder. After all that I still didn't like the way the brake felt. It was way too soft and pulled to the grip. I bleed the heck out of it, syringe pushed up from the caliper, hung the calipers so it was straight up and down, no real improvement. Still soft, there was no air in the system. I got fed up with it and picked up a used Explorer 5/8 MC. It's firm now :icon_razz: It looks identical to the OEM 1/2in tiger one. I think the Tiger 800 14mm (308mm 2 piston caliper) is a great choice. You'll definitely notice a difference, the stock is undersized. The 14mm is on the new bonnies with the same size calipers (310mm 2 piston) as well. Seems to be Triumph implementation for ~310mm 2 pistons is 14mm. I've done too much research on this.
If you're doing this and don't want to resort to cutting or grinding the hand guards, you might be able to stretch the plastic in the areas you need clearance by using a hair dryer or heat gun and manipulating with the ball peen of a hammer or other tool.
I've done this on the Steamer successfully.
I've seen photos of other (later ?) Nissin cylinders on Triumphs where the adjustable lever appears to be slightly different and does not have the problematical hinge bolt. So if one of these was available, no 'easing' should be necessary.
Curiosity piqued!
Please post some photos of the set up and clearance.
Knew Id seen something about Kawasaki master cyls on Girlies somewhere:
http://tiger955i.adrianmolloy.com/Brakes.html.
This guy, Adrian, also says he could always pull the lever back to the bars with the stock set-up. I cant, and I can quite easily lock the front wheel. On the last Tiger I did once end up with no lever after a brake flush, but eventually after more bleeding, tapping and tying the lever back I got a good lever back again. Im with Sin in that if you havent got a good lever there is an issue with dodgy seals/ partially seized calipers or air in the system. I intend to rebuild all calipers and master cyl over the winter, Triumph recommend this every 4 years in the service schedule, my bike is 13 years old and Im fairly sure its never been done.
Quote from: Dyn Blin on August 11, 2016, 07:09:46 AM
Curiosity piqued!
Please post some photos of the set up and clearance.
There isn't much to see when everything is together as it mostly looks just like the standard cylinder.
(http://i648.photobucket.com/albums/uu206/GinDaemon/Tiger/SAM_23941_zpsmrm4liln.jpg) (http://s648.photobucket.com/user/GinDaemon/media/Tiger/SAM_23941_zpsmrm4liln.jpg.html)
In this view you can see the bolt that I referred to. It's the flange nut on the underside that fouls slightly.
(http://i648.photobucket.com/albums/uu206/GinDaemon/Tiger/SAM_23921_zps4gqls0fd.jpg) (http://s648.photobucket.com/user/GinDaemon/media/Tiger/SAM_23921_zps4gqls0fd.jpg.html)
was curious to see your "clearance" mod- thanks!
DB, it was just a case of assembling the hand guard on to the lever etc. and operating it a few times. The guard is flexible and this could be done OK even though it was slightly impeding the lever. The movement made a scratch where the lever bolt touched the guard, and it was just a case of removing a little of the plastic along the scratch line.
I used a Dremel tool for this, but a round file would work. SinTigers suggestion is also an option. Maybe with the later lever, it isn't even necessary.
Or, how not to do it :icon_eek: (not my handywork btw)
As a follow on to this, I see that Wezmoto (not Wemoto) do a stainless steel etc. twin line ('race') set for the Tiger for £39.95 which is a very keen price. The single long line alone from World of Triumph is £55.40 :bug_eye . I've used Wezmoto lines in the past on a Honda and the quality is just fine.
That is an amazing deal, even with international shipping. 2/3 of the cost from other sources. thanks for posting.
Just finished my front brake mod this year. It's a long tale so I apologise now.
First I put a Brembo radial master cylinder off a Ducati 999S on and that's were the first head ache started. The reservoir is built into the top and it's designed to be level when on a clip on handle bar. Had to mod it with a different reservoir that would be level when bolted to straight bars. The lever fouled on the hand guards so off they come. Thought it might look stupid but it looks fine to me. The new hose I used seemed to sweat what I found out to be brake fluid (not a nice taste). Replaced it with brake fluid resistant hose. Removed the clutch lever and mount and had them soda blasted to remove the paint which the bloke said was as touch as hell. Polished it up to match the silver master cylinder.
Got some brand new, never fitted 4 pot callipers off of a sporty faired Triumph but I can not remember the model (what a steal). Perfect for the Tiger as the disc size is the same on both bikes. Set about designing mounting plates as the mounting hole centres are different for both callipers so the new ones wouldn't bolt straight to the fork legs and then had them laser cut out of 8mm stainless steel. Mate turned me some ali spacers to centralize the callipers over the disc's. Spent 6/8 hours wet and drying to a good finish then polished everything to a mirror finish (what a horrible job). Got new bolts for both the mounting plates and callipers from ProBolt (rip off price but lovely). Fitted new floating discs and bolts. Decided the route for the new Venhill braided hoses that I'd decided to use but once fitted they pressed against the wiring loom down the right side of the steering head. This is because I've mounted a 'T' branch to the bottom yoke to send a hose independently down to both callipers (not over the mud guard from 1 calliper to the other). Having 2 hoses straight from the master to the callipers would have avoided this but I didn't know this until I'd fitted the hoses. But being honest I don't like the look of that set up anyway so would have still done it the way I have, petty I know but that's just me. Repositioned the loom to the left side with quite a bit of third eye twitching in case anything broke as there was minimal bend in the thick taped up loom. Bled everything up then waited for the good weather for a test drive.
Immense is all I can say. Can stand it on it's nose with minimal 1 finger pressure and if I'm being totally honest there probable to powerful now if you can have such a thing. But I wouldn't swap back for all the tea in China.
This is interesting. Can you post up some pics of your installation ?
Love to if you can explain how to do it. When I've done it before it just puts the link up and not the picture.
I do it using an account in Photobucket to host the pictures and then link to them. There are lots of free photohosting sites I'm sure as well as Photobucket. If your image is already hosted somewhere use the square bracket img square bracket filename square bracket forward slash img squarebracket method to put it into your posting here.
Right here's some pictures. Hope this works.
(http://i1260.photobucket.com/albums/ii571/aesdj/Caliper%20Mod/Front%20End.jpg) (http://s1260.photobucket.com/user/aesdj/media/Caliper%20Mod/Front%20End.jpg.html)
(http://i1260.photobucket.com/albums/ii571/aesdj/Caliper%20Mod/Wheel.jpg) (http://s1260.photobucket.com/user/aesdj/media/Caliper%20Mod/Wheel.jpg.html)
(http://i1260.photobucket.com/albums/ii571/aesdj/Caliper%20Mod/Caliper.jpg) (http://s1260.photobucket.com/user/aesdj/media/Caliper%20Mod/Caliper.jpg.html)
(http://i1260.photobucket.com/albums/ii571/aesdj/Caliper%20Mod/Caliper%20Back%20View.jpg) (http://s1260.photobucket.com/user/aesdj/media/Caliper%20Mod/Caliper%20Back%20View.jpg.html)
(http://i1260.photobucket.com/albums/ii571/aesdj/Caliper%20Mod/Caliper%20Top%20View.jpg) (http://s1260.photobucket.com/user/aesdj/media/Caliper%20Mod/Caliper%20Top%20View.jpg.html)
(http://i1260.photobucket.com/albums/ii571/aesdj/Caliper%20Mod/Brake%201.jpg) (http://s1260.photobucket.com/user/aesdj/media/Caliper%20Mod/Brake%201.jpg.html)
(http://i1260.photobucket.com/albums/ii571/aesdj/Caliper%20Mod/Brake.jpg) (http://s1260.photobucket.com/user/aesdj/media/Caliper%20Mod/Brake.jpg.html)
(http://i1260.photobucket.com/albums/ii571/aesdj/Caliper%20Mod/Clutch.jpg) (http://s1260.photobucket.com/user/aesdj/media/Caliper%20Mod/Clutch.jpg.html)
You carn't tell in the pictures but you've got about 4/5mm between the caliper body and the wheel spokes.
(http://i1260.photobucket.com/albums/ii571/aesdj/Caliper%20Mod/Lever%20View.jpg) (http://s1260.photobucket.com/user/aesdj/media/Caliper%20Mod/Lever%20View.jpg.html)
Those looks really, really, sharp. Very nice work!
May I ask you to indulge in one more photo, showing the division of brake line over the front fender?
Will do but you'll have to give me a couple of days as I've got to take my son and then my daughter to rugby practice.
Quote from: aesdj on September 13, 2016, 08:10:56 PM
Right here's some pictures. Hope this works.
(http://i1260.photobucket.com/albums/ii571/aesdj/Caliper%20Mod/Front%20End.jpg) (http://s1260.photobucket.com/user/aesdj/media/Caliper%20Mod/Front%20End.jpg.html)
(http://i1260.photobucket.com/albums/ii571/aesdj/Caliper%20Mod/Lever%20View.jpg) (http://s1260.photobucket.com/user/aesdj/media/Caliper%20Mod/Lever%20View.jpg.html)
Hi there aesdj, hope you don't mind me asking, but how do you get on with you MRA Vario-Touring screen? I was finding on my 2006 girly with the Ermax touring screen the turbulence and buffeting is really crap, so have just ordered the MRA one like yours. Hope it will help me????
Cheers
Dave
Interesting brake thread,my experience of changing radial levers and changing calipers the discs pay the price unless you run real full floaters
Quote from: Chris Canning on September 15, 2016, 01:50:16 PM
the discs pay the price unless you run real full floaters
I'm guessing your saying the disc may/will warp. Here's the write up for the disc's I baught :-
Tiger 995i (Cast wheel models only) Two EBC Prolite "Floating" rotors supplied.
Front Discs (1xPAIR)
These superbly engineered replacement "FLOATING" disc brake rotors will improve the braking of your bike significantly as well as addressing the distortion and warpage issues associated the stock Triumph rotors.
Thought a floating disc were like mine with the rivets to allow the braking surface to flex slightly and to aid cooling and stop them warpping. Take it this is not correct?
Blimey could turn into an oil thread :icon_biggrin:,I changed the front stock master cylinder to a radial Accossato on my XT660 and the only option I had was an EBC like yours currently it's standing up quite well but in the true sense of the word it isn't a floating disc.
If you google Beringer or PFM they are true full floaters you shake them they rattle more like a musical instrument!!! When going over cobbled roads make a hell of a racket :icon_frown: the good news the wear is fantastic the bad news they cost a fortune.
So after my waffle I'll be interested to see how yours stand up to a radial front lever because if anything is going to make the discs warp that will,that's not to say they will!!! :icon_lol: although if you were running stock Triumph discs you could be you life they would
aesdj,
Not to totally derail your thread but how do you like that tank cover?
Mine is starting to look like a rolling wart.
The big lad, I get on with it great but being honest it's been along time since I've rode with the standard screen but it's definitely better than the stanbard one.
Chris, it hit me on the way to work that your on about the rattley ones. To me there more for track when they are running at the steels maximum expansion due to them not getting time to cool so they need alot of gap (and rattle) for the expansion. Don't think you'll find many standard road bikes with them on as there not necessary for road use and the ones you will find are track spec bikes for the road. Like the Ducati 1199R which I'm guessing they have to sell so many to make them eligible for BSB/ World Super Bikes. Why do you think the master will make the discs warp? To my thinking it'll give you the same braking force but with less finger pressure and a better feel. Yes if you really want to stop fast it'll slow you up a hell of alot faster than standard but the uprated disc's should easily cope with it. It'll be the tyre (Anakee 2) that will be the limiting factor I would think.
SteveFord, I love the look and the protection it offers. Had it for maybe 4 years and it still looks like new. Must say that it only goes out in the dry between May and September and it's kept in a garage all other times.
Dyn Blin here's the picture you wanted. Sorry it took so long to upload. Anyway I'm glad you asked for it for 2 reasons :-
1) Noticed the two 90 degree bends are starting to go rusty. Everything's stainless steel except those two bends and the 'T' that for some reason Venhill only do in chrome. Was a little disappointed about that but didn't think it would matter seeing as though I'm a fair weather rider now and that there up under the fairing. Rang them and they were great about it and said it must be a bad batch and they'd send me out some more but could I please send them back so they can figure out why they've started rusting so quickly.
2) It's reminded me to paint the horn bracket that I made to move it to the right to gain space for the new set.
(http://i1260.photobucket.com/albums/ii571/aesdj/Caliper%20Mod/DSCF6158.jpg) (http://s1260.photobucket.com/user/aesdj/media/Caliper%20Mod/DSCF6158.jpg.html)
Ow and I've got copy right, pat pending and anything else I need to keep you lot off of this mod :icon_lol: :icon_lol: :icon_lol:
Actually you lot can help me out. When I finished this mod I was pondering if I should change the standard pads to something else. Thinking EBC to match the disc's but I'd spent enough on it up to then so left it but it's constantly bugging me. Only done maybe 1000 miles so the disc's are still like new so I might do it this winter but is it that important or should I wait for the pads that came with the calliper's to need renewing. Nothing wrong with the pads feel/stopping power, just thinking that better pads may help the disc wear etc. Who makes Triumph's pads? I really don't know what to do for the best.
Quote from: aesdj on September 19, 2016, 08:20:16 PM
Dyn Blin here's the picture you wanted. Sorry it took so long to upload. Anyway I'm glad you asked for it for 2 reasons :-
1) Noticed the two 90 degree bends are starting to go rusty. Everything's stainless steel except those two bends and the 'T' that for some reason Venhill only do in chrome. Was a little disappointed about that but didn't think it would matter seeing as though I'm a fair weather rider now and that there up under the fairing. Rang them and they were great about it and said it must be a bad batch and they'd send me out some more but could I please send them back so they can figure out why they've started rusting so quickly.
2) It's reminded me to paint the horn bracket that I made to move it to the right to gain space for the new set.
Thanks for that- looks good and tidy and out of harm's way. You made good work of it with not much room under there.
EBC HH pads on EBC discs work very nicely and progressively with very low wear rate on the discs.
Quote from: aesdj on September 18, 2016, 03:22:07 PM
The big lad, I get on with it great but being honest it's been along time since I've rode with the standard screen but it's definitely better than the standard one.
Got my new MRA screen yesterday and had it on the bike within 5 mins of arrival !!! Definitely makes things quieter and more comfortable for me.
Cost 110€ and well worth it.
Cheers
Dave