TigerTriple.com

I'm still reading up on motorcycle charging systems, trying to find a way to prevent the failures that seem to plague Girlies.

A primer:

The charging system on a Girly consists of an Alternator and a Voltage Regulator / Rectifier.  The Alternator is different from those on a car in that our Alternator consists of a permanent magnet (rotor) spinning around a stationary Stator.  The spinning magnet produces electricity by exciting the electrons in the coils of copper wire built into the Stator...

(http://www.electrosport.com/street/images/street-bike-stator-esg941-300.jpg)

The new electricity flows from the copper coils into wires which send the current to the motorcycle.

Alternators produce Alternating Current, the same type of current used in your house, but at a lower voltage, around 70 Volts AC.  Alternating Current flows back and forth 60 times a second... this is the 60 Hertz or  60 Cycles that you may have seen written on household appliances.  

This AC current is then sent to the Rectifier half of the Regulator / Rectifier...

(http://www.gdlcycles.com/general/-rk_10-005-Rectifier-1.jpg)

Diodes convert the Alternating Current to Direct Current, that which is used in cars, bikes, trucks, etc.  Think of a Diode as a one-way valve.  They let the Alternating Current flow into the Rectifier, but not back out.  This produces Direct Current, which flows in one direction only.

The current is then sent into the Regulator, which then chops off the amount of DC the battery can't use and dumps it to Ground (DC -).  This is why the Regulator / Rectifier gets so hot... it is dumping excess electricity from the charging system and converting it to heat.

This is typical of most Regulator / Rectifiers found on most 2003 and earlier bikes, the shunt-type R/R (so named because it shunts excess current to Ground).  These units referred to as 'SCR' Regulator / Rectifiers, meaning Silicone-Controlled Rectifier.

The voltage put out by the RR is dependent on the temperature of the RR.  When it's cool, it puts out higher Voltage.  As the RR warms up, the output voltage drops.

Now then...

One possible cause of charging system failure is alternator stator failure caused by one of the phases (groups of the copper coils) shorting to ground.  This might be the result of pinched wires inside the stator cover, or frayed insulation on a wire.  This is easy to test... using a Volt-Ohm Meter, there should be Infinite Ohms (an open circuit) between any Stator wire and Ground.  If your meter shows 0 Ohms (continuity, or a closed circuit), that leg (phase) of the stator is shorted to Ground, and the Stator is shot.

Another possible cause may be bare spots in the insulation on the wires that make up the windings on the poles of the stator.  Motorcycle Voltage Regulators are able to handle high Voltage from the stator, but only low current (Amperes).  When the coils of small-gauge wire short against themselves, they artificially create fewer coils of larger wire, producing too much Amperage for the Voltage Regulator to handle, frying the Regulator.

Although these two causes are possible, Stator failures by themselves aren't as common as Voltage Regulator failures.  When a Regulator goes, it frequently takes the Stator with it, by shorting and / or overloading the phases (groups of copper coils).  For this reason, it is recommended to replace both the Stator and Regulator / Rectifier (at the same time) when repairing a charging system failure.

It's much more likely to experience a Voltage Regulator / Rectifier failure.  Remember my comment above about the Regulator / Rectifier dumping excess electricity to ground, causing the RR to get hot?  Well, they're made to take some heat, but they do need some airflow to keep cool.  That's why they have cooling fins, just like the cylinders and heads of air-cooled engines.  A Regulator / Rectifier will burn out internally if its temperature isn't kept to a safe level.  And where does Triumph put them?  Under the seat, between the frame and the battery box.

I firmly believe that the number of charging system failures can be reduced by getting the RR to run at a cooler temperature.  I'm going to do a bit of experimenting with the side cover, maybe a small air scoop to get air to the RR... maybe moving the RR altogether and getting it on the outside of the bike where the cooling fins can actually get some air.

I learned a great deal bout the kind of charging systems in Girlies by reading this thread on F650.com, a site dedicated to BMW F650's, which run a very similar type of charging system.  F650's are also plagued with charging system failures, but from reading here, most seem to be attributed to RR failures caused by excessive heat buildup.

http://faq.f650.com/FAQs/VoltageRectifierFAQ.htm (http://faq.f650.com/FAQs/VoltageRectifierFAQ.htm)

Nicely written Stretch.  Thanks.  If this isn't already a sticky it is worth considering.

On the old bonnevilles (pre 1971) they were mounted in the air stream under the headlamp , the new bonnies are the same way .
The oil frame bonnies after 1971 were not they had a zener diode mounted in the air box with the rectifier under the seat , guess which one failed all the time .

you have already found the problem it is HEAT you need to get that regulator rectifier out into the fresh air somehow .

Do you think there would be a significant voltage drop (due to long wires) by moving the RR to the front of the bike, maybe under the fairing?

I knew there were some pluses living in a colder climate.  8)

what's worse .......loosing a little voltage or constantly going thru R/R

Maybe a thick heat sink bolted to the back of the RR, made of aluminum.

We have an Infra-Red camera on my fire engine, which we use to look for fire and smoke victims in structure fires.  Even in a hot, smoky room, the silhouette of a human stands out sharply against the floor, bed, etc.

My point:  We take it out and play with it sometimes... I mean, uh... train with it, to make sure we stay familiar with it.  We had been out on a call earlier, and had been back in the house for a few minutes, and I pointed the camera at the aluminum wheels on the truck... the were dark gray on the IR camera, indicating cooler temperatures.  But you could see the brake rotor through the holes in the wheel, bright white, indicating high heat.

The aluminum wheel was much cooler than the iron brake rotor, as aluminum gives off heat more quickly.  It also heats up quickly, sapping the heat away from the hot brake rotor.

Soooo...  a thick slab of aluminum bolted to the back of the RR ought to rob a lot of heat from it.

Hmmmmm...

Quote from: "Mustang"what's worse .......loosing a little voltage or constantly going thru R/R

No kidding.

A thick heat sink and relocate the RR into the air.

I think we may be on to something.

So is my 06 going to suffer a similar fate?  Out of curiosity what did they do with the Roadies?

Instead of just a pc of aluminum to mount to

(http://www.enertron-inc.com/images/AC-1U-Heat-Sink.jpg)

a nice alum. heat sink with the center machined out to match the shape of the R/R would work so much better

Quote from: "HappyMan"So is my 06 going to suffer a similar fate?  Out of curiosity what did they do with the Roadies?

Not nessacarily , but you do read about a lot of Girly bikes given it up to charging problems
It is much colder ambient air temp up in cheeseland though , it does make a difference

Who's to say which RR will fry and which won't?  There are dudes here with 75k, 100k miles and more with the original charging systems.

And others have been through a couple or more in half the time.

It must also have something to do with the quality of connections between the RR and Ground.  Crappy connections create heat, and with the RR creating its own heat by regulating the Voltage, the added heat of resistance just makes things worse.

So add that to the list...

Relocate the RR into airflow, thick aluminum heatsink, and scrupulously clean connections throughout the charging system.

Sounds like you have a mission ........I'm out going night night

Quote from: "Mustang"Instead of just a pc of aluminum to mount to

(http://www.enertron-inc.com/images/AC-1U-Heat-Sink.jpg)

a nice alum. heat sink with the center machined out to match the shape of the R/R would work so much better

From an electronics supply house, I presume?

Quote from: "Mustang"Sounds like you have a mission .......

Dang right... I have a trip coming up in three weeks... a thousand miles each way.  I'm looking to kick this problem square in the ass.

More good info, this time on a Honda VFR forum.  VFR's also use very similar charging systems, with the exception of a black wire (battery monitor feed to the newer VFR Regulator / Rectifiers) that adjusts RR output based on the battery voltage sensed through this wire.  Tigers have no such animal, so just ignore comments about that (on pages 2 & 3).

http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/inde ... 29975&st=0 (http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=29975&st=0)

When you guys talk about charging problems, what exactly do you mean? Does it die completely or just doesn't take extra load?

I ask because I mounted a couple of auxiliary lights this weekend - simple 55W each, just helps to look like a christmas tree so people see you coming. I am not sure yet, but it seems to me that the bike just doesn't manage this extra load.

I did do a lot of reading before I installed them and I believe that an extra 10A should be OK for the Tiger. However, when I stopped at a shop, after riding for some 45 minutes in town (traffic lights and such), the motor wouldn't re-start. After 30 minutes or so, as expected, I managed to start OK. I also had a couple of weird motor cuts while coming to a stop at traffic lights. Haven't figured that out yet but could be low battery charge.

Just for info, I just got my new (to me) Tiger and don't yet have a voltage meter on it.

Thanks all for the posts. Great topic!

2 added lights at 55watts each is a BIG load on the poor ol tiggers system .
Your two headlights plus 2 additional lights alone is at the minimum 220 watts just for lights .  :shock:

If the problems started after adding the additional lights , I would remove them and also would confirm with a voltmeter at the battery terminals when running just what your voltage output is

On the other charging post I mentioned my 'Bird charging probs.  Well the 'Bird has it's reg/rec on the side of the subframe, behind plastic trim, just under the rider's left thigh BUT there's a good flow of air in that region, and the subframe forms a heat sink of sorts.  Makes all the difference.  I think my 'Bird charge probs were due to bad connectors frying the cables.

The wiring diagram gives you an idea:

(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c273/BixxerBob/wiring.jpg)

And it's behind the pastic,  about below where the chrome blob is in this photo:

(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c273/BixxerBob/singleseatconversion.jpg)

If you look closely, you can see the vent just behind the reg where the air exits.

Bob, that's what I've been gathering from my last couple days of reading about this sort of thing...  

The wires are too small and too long (creating internal resistance, which can cook connectors and kill components).

The Regulator / Rectifier, which generates heat by dumping excess voltage to ground, is tucked into a small unventilated space.

The body of the RR itself is rarely properly grounded to the frame of the bike where it is mounted (hard to get a good connection through paint), and there should also be a large-gauge ground wire from the frame to the engine, and from the engine to the Negative battery terminal.

There is no heat sink value from the factory mount, as it is just a couple of tabs sticking out from the frame.

Interesting reading:  http://www.triumphrat.net/daytona-delib ... tsink.html (http://www.triumphrat.net/daytona-deliberations/59592-stator-replacement-regulator-rectifier-heatsink.html)

Thoughts and comments:
Good on ya, Stretch. Necessity is the father of invention. All will benefit from your tinkering, as usual. I divine from your postings and the RAT discussion that overheated R/R is the root cause of the stator failures. Do you agree? I can't tinker right now, so I'll just say what's on my mind:

The R/R is finned, and there is an amount of airflow which will provide adequate cooling. We don't know what that amount is, and Hinkley erred in not providing a location with adequate airflow.
Adding a baseplate with heat transfer paste to absorb heat will help until the baseplate gets hot, unless there is airflow or frame mass to convect or conduct the heat away. Since there is no airflow, the baseplate will have limited effect.
Adding a finned baseplate as suggested is even better, but airflow is still required to cool the additional fins.
The key is airflow, how to provide it, and an adequate amount. More fins would mean less airflow is required, but NO airflow is not allowed.

Quote from: "2004Tiger"Thoughts and comments:
Good on ya, Stretch. Necessity is the father of invention. All will benefit from your tinkering, as usual. I divine from your postings and the RAT discussion that overheated R/R is the root cause of the stator failures. Do you agree? I can't tinker right now, so I'll just say what's on my mind:

The R/R is finned, and there is an amount of airflow which will provide adequate cooling. We don't know what that amount is, and Hinkley erred in not providing a location with adequate airflow.
Adding a baseplate with heat transfer paste to absorb heat will help until the baseplate gets hot, unless there is airflow or frame mass to convect or conduct the heat away. Since there is no airflow, the baseplate will have limited effect.
Adding a finned baseplate as suggested is even better, but airflow is still required to cool the additional fins.
The key is airflow, how to provide it, and an adequate amount. More fins would mean less airflow is required, but NO airflow is not allowed.

That's what I'm thinking.

My plan thus far is to modify the left side cover to allow the RR to reside there, in place of the seat lock.  I'll mount it somewhere else, using a longer cable.

I've ordered a piece of 1/4-inch thick copper sheet, 3 inches wide, and a foot long.  The copper plate will be the heat sink, and shall bolt to the subframe, bridging the air space just above the passenger footpeg mounts.  The RR shall bolt to the copper plate, out in the breeze, with heat sink grease between the RR and copper plate to improve the heat flow into the copper.

Small individual heat sinks, made for electronic components, are going on the back of the copper plate, in the area where the bike's frame won't cover the back of the copper...

(http://www.v2conference.com/shower-cabinet/images/Aluminum%20Profile-s002/Heat_Sink_Profiles.jpg)

This will help to draw the heat out of the copper, on the back side.

I'm also going to double each wire in the system, to cut down resistance and overloading, which can kill components internally.

Quote from: "Stretch"

Quote from: "2004Tiger"Bla bla bla ...............................................

I'm also going to double each wire in the system, to cut down resistance and overloading, which can kill components internally.

Stretch Just a small thought, instead of taking the regulator to the fresh air why not bring the fresh cool air to the regulator (ducting it......)

I thought about that... fabbing a scoop and ducts, but it can't match the airflow of having the RR right there in fresh air.  And by scooping and ducting air from anywhere near the engine, that air supplied to the RR is already hot.

I had also thought about installing a small fan to blow across the RR, but fans that small only blow about 4 Cubic Feet a Minute... not much.  Also, the air that the fan would draw from is that empty space behind the cylinders, which is already pretty warm.

I believe the very best way to cool the RR would be to mount it behind the fairing, a bit below the two small openings at the bottom.  It would get scads of cool air forced over it, and that air would then exit upward between the dash and the tank.

But that would involve running a veritable rope of wiring from the engine to the fairing, with the RR having 7 wires coming in and out of it.  I'm also increasing the wire size to help it run cooler (for the same voltage and amperage, larger wires make less resistance), making the bundle even thicker.

I think I'll most likely mount it outside of the subframe, just above the left passenger footpeg mount.  I'll have to modify the side cover and seat lock to make room for it, but doing so will get the RR into the breeze while keeping the wires fairly short.

I'm at work at the moment but I'll have a "girls look" when I get home, like your thinking though. Thanks Stretch for all your good work on our beloved Tigers.

Thanks, Bro.  Apparently, Triumph thought the RR was too unsightly to mount in a ventilated area, and then cut corners on wire size, but these bikes are simply too good to give up on.  With a little tinkering, I believe these problems can be overcome, and the bike will be stone reliable.

RR fix on my 84 Honda VF.

(http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u310/sanjoh2002/P2120002.jpg)

Hey Stretch,
Long time no speak. The high mount fender I got last year looks awesome.
I had the regulator problem on my VFR back hom in Aus. Seems Honda didn't feel the need for cooling fins. Replaced the original with an earlier models heat sinked unit. Using a heat detector I was still registering significant heat. I installed a CPU cooling fan and heat sink...problem solved. It was a bit of mucking around but worked well even with the VFR's tendancy to "cook your balls" with the heat from the rear two cylinders.

Keep up the fight

Hey, OzTiger.  Glad to see you over here.

Thanks for the fan idea, dudes.  And installing the fans has been a long-term permanent fix, with no recurrance?  Just checking.

I'm wondering that a fan may not do much good in this case, when the source of fresh air is the empty space behind the cylinders (under the tank), which is already quite hot.  I'd prefer to have cooller air blow over the RR, but due to it's location, there is no cool air for a fan to draw.

More and more, it's becoming clear that it's the RR location (crammed into a tight, inadequately ventilated space) that may be at the root cause of all these charging system failures.

Ya know, that's just a damned shame.  No doubt, there are people coming in to these forums to investigate the possibiility of buying a Tiger, but are scared off when they read thread after thread about charging system trouble.  All because Triumph wanted to save money by using small-gauge wire, and didn't want an unsightly electric fixture mounted in plain sight.

Well, I for one say to hell with Triumph's design.  I've never regretted overbuilding anything, and I intend to kick this problem square in its ass.

having worked on PC's for years...

A cooling fan *might* only do so much good for a few reasons... recirculating warm air doesn't help much. There could be a negative pressure zone in there making it hard to actually draw air into the fan....

Consider a remote cooling fin arrangement similar to the tube based ones on PC's?? Liquid cooling would work but it runs too much money.

Is it possible to run a thick wad of copper rod out through the vent hole? Solder it to the heat sink of the rectifier and then solder on an additional finned heat sink in the vent opening??

Found one!!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180327712926&ssPageName=ADME:B:EF:US:1123

The above could be adapted to suck heat from the Rec/Reg... :idea:  :idea:

That's what I was thinking reading these posts (also being a PC geek).  Copper heat plate, copper heat tube, routed to a remote heatsink.

It's been a month.  Any updates?  You're probably on your trip.  More power to you.   Like may others have said before, THANKS!

_h

Quote from: "mrazekan"It's been a month.  Any updates?  You're probably on your trip.  More power to you.   Like may others have said before, THANKS!

_h

I'm still tinkering.  

I initially went with the Shindengen FH012AA Regulator / Rectifier from a 2008+ Yamaha YZF-R1 on the recommendation of D'Ecosse from TriumphRat.  He has made a similar R/R swap on a few bikes.  

But I decided to use a different RR than the Yamaha item because I couldn't figure a bomb-proof way to connect it to everything (it has push-on terminals inside a plastic shroud).  It also had a 500-watt rating, which wouldn't match up with the 350-watt rating of the stock Stator.  I want to match the system as much as I can to keep everything on an even keel, so to speak.

I'm now fiddling with a Shindengen FH008EB R/R from a 2008 Honda CBR600.  It uses the same cool-running MOSFET technology as the Yamaha part, but is a 350-watt unit, and has external wires that I can solder in to the Stator and Sasquatch Fix.

MOSFET stands for Metal Oxide Semiconductor Field Effect Transistor, and R/R's using this technology are much more efficient and run much cooler than the older shunt-type SCR R/R's found as standard equipment on a Tiger.

I had the Yamaha R/R on my bike for a little over a thousand miles, and even after running for a couple straight hours, the R/R delivered a stable 14.3 volts above 2500 rpm (about 12.8 at idle), and never got more than luke-warm.  I'm not kidding.

The same run with the Triumph R/R would have gotten it so hot that you could barely touch it.

I've read that every 10˚C drop in operating temperature doubles the life of electronic components.  So having a cool-running R/R mounted on a heat-sink, out in the open air, ought to do it.

A link to that thread:  http://tigertriple.com/forum/index.php/topic,6180 (http://tigertriple.com/forum/index.php/topic,6180)

I noticed the difficult thing about the R1 regulator is the connector on the regulator body.  So I think the key component is the wires coming off of the honda RR.  The 500W rated RR would be a better choice IMHO.  What the rating means is that the RR can dissipate up to 500 Watts of energy should the bike not need it to run or charge the battery.  

The higher the draw from the bike for charging and running accessories etc., the cooler the RR will be.  It is when the bike does not need power that the RR dumps the energy as heat.  So either the 500W or 350W RR will pass all of the power from the rectifier circuit/stator to the bike if needed, i.e. you run highbeams, heated gear, PIAA lights, toaster, etc.  .  If the power is not needed, then that power will be dumped as heat by the regulator.  Since the stator can only put out ~350W of power, the 500W RR will be more than capable of dissipating that heat.

The burnt stator problem only happens when the RR has a short presented to the stator.   The low resistance increases the current flow and fries the coils.  

RR failures are due to overheating of the RR.  The RR cannot dissipate enough heat/power so it overheats.  This causes the rectifier side to short and burn a stator or the regulator side to fail and under or over charge the battery.

My SV650 suffered an overheating of the RR.  The encapsulant on the back was cracked and there was a dribble of solder seeping out of it. Tin melts at 450F.  YEAH!  Suzuki wanted bocu bucks for an OEM one.  I went to a wrecking yard and pulled one off of a Honda.  Chased that with a 3300 mile trip.  No problems to this day.

Good luck and I'll keep posting my updates on this thread:
http://tigertriple.com/forum/index.php/topic,5224 (http://tigertriple.com/forum/index.php/topic,5224)

I chose that one because Andy and I had pretty much the exact same symptoms.  They also appeared to be different from all other problems in that there was a strong engine cold vs. engine warm component.

THANKS!

Quote from: "mrazekan"Since the stator can only put out ~350W of power, the 500W RR will be more than capable of dissipating that heat.

I was of the same mindset initially, but decided that I ought to match the R/R output with the Stator output.  I don't want to overload the Stator by pulling too much Wattage through the R/R (which the 500-Watt R/R itself could handle without complaint).

Although I do understand your point about a 500-Watt R/R handling the 350-Watt Stator without even breathing hard.  A 500-Watt R/R will indeed run cooler than a 350-Watt R/R under the same conditions.

I also didn't want to rely on push-on spade connectors, as that's about the only way to wire up the 500-watt part...

(http://www.cheesebuerger.de/images/smilie/nahrung/a070.gif)

I'm experienceing things with my Tiger I've never encountered before. I can honestly say when the bike is running, it's the best all-around machine I've ever owned and I enjoy it more than any other bike I've ever ridden.  Hands down.  But it's really starting to irritate teh hell out of me. My Sprint ST, two Harleys and the Thunderbird don't give me the grief this thing does!

So as I'm riding to work this morning, I notice my LED voltage meter's reading in the 12v range with the bike running at 3500rpm. Not good.

I replaced the stator and rectifier with a set from Ricks recently and completed the Sasquatch mod with good success (13.3v at idle and 14.5 at 3500 rpm's and above).  Even with my driving lights, heated grips and GPS, I was still doing okay at 13.2 at 3500> rpm.

I figured I'd be okay to at leat ride the bike home since the battery had a full charge before this mornings issues and it's only 10 miles away.

By the time I got home, the voltage meter had started reading in the green again, showing up to 14 volts at 3500> again. When I pulled into my garage, I smelled burnt electrical wires.  I immediately saw the connector from the stator to the rectifier was the culprit. I'm so pissed.

I decided to cut out the burnt connectors and use water proof splices backed up with heat shrink to join the stator and rectifier wires back together.  I was careful to cut back to the end of the burnt wires, which wasn't more than an inch, and I'm getting rid of the led voltage meter for the Datel digital display meter I had delivered today for more precise monitoring of what's going on.

With the wires connected through the splices, I'm back to good voltage and the wires connecting the stator and rectifier aren't feeling hot enough to melt anything again.  Hopefully I avoided damaging the stator and rectifier, things seem okay after a short ride tonight.

I'm thinking about moving the rectifier to the opening in the frame where the powerlet connector's at with the cooling fins facing out. Yes, it puts it closer to the engine, but it's also open to air circulation and not trapped in a small pocket where it can't "breath".

Here are the photos of the connectors:

I had the same thing happen to me shortly after putting in a Rick's stator. All was good until one day on my way home the voltage dropped, thought I fried another stator. Got home and smelled burnt insulation and had a toasted connector exactly like the one in your picture.
Cut back to clean wire and have been fine for several thousand miles.

Good to know, thanks for the reassurance! I called Ricks yesterday when I noticed the burnt connector, but they haven't returned my message yet. I'm curious if they're using sub-standard connectors since this is getting to be a recurring theme?

I'm wiring in my Datel voltage meter today, I have an uneasy feeling something just isn't right with my bike's charging system and I can't seem to put my finger on it. I might just be acting paranoid because of my experiences with the Tiger so far, who knows.....?

I'm moving the LED meter over to the Harley since I run a lot of accessories off it too. It's never given me a problem, but it certainly deserves monitoring.

Tom, my bike did the exact same thing about a month ago (also a Rick's Stator and R/R).  The episode was outlined in my 'Man, What a Day' thread...

http://tigertriple.com/forum/index.php/topic,5602 (http://tigertriple.com/forum/index.php/topic,5602)

That turn of events is what inspired me to remove every push-on connector in my charging system and solder every connection.  I'm also working on a better fuse holder for my Sasquatch Fix, since I had a voltage fluctuation due to a crappy connection in my parts-store sourced fuse holder.  Although the part was alleged to have been rated for 30 Amps, that much current overheated the push-on connector in the input side of the fuse holder.

More to come...

Burnt connectors look just like the ones on my Blackbird, which is also known to have one or two charging issues.... :roll:

Just wondering... could it be that pushing the plastic connector together until it locks,  we don't really know how snug and tight the metal to metal connection is???  If it's a bit loose and relying on the plastic plug to hold it in place,  that would give enough resistance for this to happen I think??

I'm going to give mine a little tweak withthe pliers during it's service, just in case.....

Have been following this thread with great interest. My 02 Tiger is creeping up on the 40k mark. I bought it used with 10k and do not know the age of the battery. Keeping it on a tender, it always started and ran fine. The last few weeks noticed that the volt meter was reading lo.............12.9---13.4 while at  hi-way speeds. Installed a new battery and presto .................13.9--14.2 volts.  Possibly the marginal Tiger system can be overstressed and fail trying to maintain a weak battery?

It could be that small bits of lead, having flaked off the plates in the battery, shorted a cell and caused some of the incoming voltage to dump to ground inside the battery.  The new battery, having no lead deposits laying across the bottom of the cells, is able to accept and use the full charge coming from the charging system.

I finally had a chance to run the bike out on the highway for an extended run to monitor what's going on with my voltage. I installed my Datel LCD display volt meter so now I have a better idea of what's happening.  I took my spare battery off the charger/maintainer and put it in the bike just because I didn't know the age of the one that came with the bike when I bought it.

When I start it and it's at high idle I'm getting 14.3

After the bike's warmed to the point of the cooling fan kicking on at idle I'm averaging 13.3 without any accessories on.

When I kick on my Pia driving lights, I'm down around 12.7.  Kick on the heated grips on high and I'm down to 12.3 average while at idle.

When running at 65mph/4300rpm without accessories I'm at 14.6. Add in the Pia's and I'm down to 13.8, then the grips take me to 13.3.

These are averages so I think I'm okay for now and will keep a close eye on things.  

I'm still thinking the relocation of the rectifier to a place where it can breath and cool better is of the highest importance. As it warms up, on my bike it's performance is greatly reduced.  In South Carolina it gets down-right hot, and I mean like Africa hot, in the Summer months and I'm going to need to address the rectifier relocation/cooling before I fry another one.

Sounds about normal, Tom.

Just got off the phone with Ricks, we had a lengthy discussion and I have to say  I'm very impressed with his concern and professionalism. It's far too rare in this day and age to find quality customer service like this!

In summary, our conversation centered around the connector failure, and he stated it's not uncommon because the stator's running at the high end of the output capability. Due to the heating and cooling of the charging system, if you're not using a dielectric grease, the corrosion of the connectors creates even more heat and will eventually cause the issue we're seeing.

I used dielectric grease and still had the failure.  He was quite happy with the voltage readings after cutting the connectors and soldering the wires together. I passed on to him the concern of Tiger 955i owners and he told me he's developed a high-end stator and regulator/rectifier compatible with our machines. This new set-up's far more capable of running cooler and disapating the excess voltage. Though it's be a bit more expensive, my reply was "okay, I'll pay more if I don't have to replace it every year or 10k miles".

He didn't give me a time frame on availability but from what I gathered, I'll guess and say it'll be soon.

We discussed my voltage readings at idle, cold and hot, and while running out on the highway. He's happy with my readings and confident getting rid of the connector will keep things good for quite a while.

Let's Ride!

Good to know that our mods are in line with Rick's line of thinking, thanks.  I've had good experience in dealing with him also, and am ecstatic that he's addressing our problems first-hand.  I'm still waiting on a part for my latest round of Mad Scientist experiments.

N00B alert on the electrical thread  :evil:

I'd rather not be posting here, but my experiences yesterday led me to post.  Did the voltage fix when I added an AP-2 for accessory HID lights, horn, Datel and had been running at mid to high 13's at idle.  While riding I was still in the 13's.  

Today I ride the bike to work and see no issues on the ride to work.  When I run some errands over lunch I see the Datel reading 12.5, then 12, then 11.5. . . At this point I turn off the head lights and just run the parking lamps.  By the time I return back to the office the tac has gone dead and I'm running about 9V on the Datel.  Of course the bike doesn't start after work.

I've ordered a new battery as I have no idea how old the current battery is (installed by the PO).  I imagine that if the problem persists and the bike is not charging the battery I will be posting on this thread a little more frequently in the future  :roll:

It could be your battery's the culprit. Make sure you charge it before sticking in the bike!

I just changed the bulbs in my Pia's from 55 to 35W's to help free up some wattage..... we'll see how that works out.

Let us know how the battery change affects things, hopefully it's an easy fix!

Quote from: "Tom Herold"It could be your battery's the culprit. Make sure you charge it before sticking in the bike!

Let us know how the battery change affects things, hopefully it's an easy fix!

I'm betting on this as the problem as I bought the bike in November and rode it all the way home from Tallahassee, Fl to Columbus, Oh in two days with my Gerbing jacket running nearly the entire time.  Without knowing the age of the battery and if it's some how shorted out I'm hoping a new battery will solve the problem.  I also float charged the battery before every test so short trips around the neighborhood wouldn't likely show any problems.  

I will report back once the battery is in.

Quote from: "Stretch"I was of the same mindset initially, but decided that I ought to match the R/R output with the Stator output.  I don't want to overload the Stator by pulling too much Wattage through the R/R (which the 500-Watt R/R itself could handle without complaint).

Although I do understand your point about a 500-Watt R/R handling the 350-Watt Stator without even breathing hard.  A 500-Watt R/R will indeed run cooler than a 350-Watt R/R under the same conditions.

I also didn't want to rely on push-on spade connectors, as that's about the only way to wire up the 500-watt part...

Stretch,

I ran an experiment today which I will detail here:
http://tigertriple.com/forum/index.php/topic,5224 (http://tigertriple.com/forum/index.php/topic,5224)

But one observation applies to this thread and a conversation we had here.  The short of it is that the stator in my bike was poorly designed.  At maximum output, the RR is only putting out about 175watts.  (14.5A x 12V)  What this tells me is that all of the power the stator is putting out is going directly into running the bike and charging the battery.  Or in my case, running the bike requires more power than what the stator is outputting and the battery is providing the rest this discharging.

The point is that even though the RR is rated for 350W, it does not force the stator to put out more than what it possibly can or 175W.  This the 500W RR will not overload the 350W stator.  The stator will put out the 350W at all times.  If the bike is not using it, the the 500W RR will EASILY dissipate that power as heat.

There is no way that the Tiger will not use some of the 350W being output by the stator.  Because of that, the RR should never be close to dissipating 350W as heat.  So a 350W RR should be more than enough.

The stock 955i Stator simply isn't stout enough to run everything we'd like.  We've all seen other bikes running a pair or two of auxiliary lights, heated grips and gear, along with various and sundry GPS and stereo systems.  You just can't do that with a Tiger.

All that is just too much for a 955i charging system.  By using shorter and larger-gauge wires, a Sasquatch Fix, and a bigger, more efficient Regulator / Rectifier, the only thing left is the stock Stator, which we are stuck with.  Increasing the capacity of everything else but the stator, while running too much electrical load, puts the overload squarely on the Stator, which it can't handle.  It's not made to supply that much juice.

Running a 500-watt R/R ought not hurt anything, as long as the rider remembers that he hasn't actually increased the capacity of the charging system.  The stock 955i Stator will always be limited to 350 watts( and even then it has to be 100% healthy), and until the aftermarket catches up with the 955i's need for more charging capacity, we need to be very careful about what demands we make on it.

I used a 350-watt R/R from a 2007+  Honda CBR600 because of its cooler-running MOSFET design (model FH008EB), and that it comes with plugs at the end of wires.  The plugs can be clipped off, and the wires soldered to the rest of the charging system, eliminating problems with push-on connectors (which I have also experienced).

I believe these dialogues have worked out most of the charging system problems, with the exception of the Stator.  Dimensionally, it's limited to the inside diameter of the flywheel / rotor, so it's not possible to simply drop in a bigger, more powerful one.

Quote from: "Stretch"All that is just too much for a 955i charging system.  By using shorter and larger-gauge wires, a Sasquatch Fix, and a bigger, more efficient Regulator / Rectifier, the only thing left is the stock Stator, which we are stuck with.  Increasing the capacity of everything else but the stator, while running too much electrical load, puts the overload squarely on the Stator, which it can't handle.  It's not made to supply that much juice.

I've tried teh Sasquatch fix twice now without success. I'm using 10 ga wire and am connecting the wires as directed in the fix thread.  I've got a 10 ga weather pack fuse holder wired with a 30 amp fuse and everything is soldered together.  Every time I try starting the engine no power is getting to the battery.  With the stock lamps on I'm seeing right around 12 at idle and 12.25 cruising. If I turn the stock lamps off I'm seeing 13 at idle.  I'm a bit bummed out that the fix really didn't work as I'd love to get the most out of my system.  

Red and blue wire going to the negative is my make shift 'black' ground wire.
(http://matttys.smugmug.com/photos/501225712_tArVL-M.jpg)

What was the voltage beforehand?  The Sasquatch fix won't make up for a weak Stator or a R/R with a burned-out diode.  

And you're sure you have it wired correctly?

(http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k308/MikeFromMT/IMG_1406.jpg)

The three black wires together on the left side of the R/R (#70) go to the Stator (#69) in no specific order.

The two Brown wires in the R/R (#70) are spliced together into the fuse holder, and then to the Positive battery terminal (#67).

The remaining two Black wires in the R/R (#70, far right) are spliced into one big wire and connected to the Negative battery terminal (#67).

Make sure your fuse is good.  Test all the connections for continuity with a multimeter.

I'm actually guessing the stator and RR aren't really performing up to their potential.  I plan on testing the entire system over the upcoming few days.  Theoretically installing a Rick's stator and RR should get me to the standard 350w . . . how difficult is it to get the stator out?  Would I need a flywheel puller?

The stator on my 2005 is behind and attached to the alternator cover.  
http://www.bikebandit.com/triumph-motor ... 5sch568713 (http://www.bikebandit.com/triumph-motorcycle-tiger-2005-alternator-starter/o/m17645sch568713)

Detach the stator harness.

Remove the bolts in the cover.

Remove the breather hose.

Three bolts holding the stator in the cover.

One bolt clamping the wiring harness into the cover.

I had a more difficult time with the R/R, all tucked up under the seat with the bolt heads facing the battery box.  It's tight in there, but it's only two  bolts (8mm wrench).

While you're in there replacing the stator, there's a press in oil seal I replaced just as a precaution. Triumph of Charlotte, NC, had one on the shelf when I called about parts.

Also, the stator cover has a gasket on it.  Either be very careful when pulling the cover off, or have a new gasket on-hand - I had to order one and wait for it to come in.....

The rectifier's a pain in the butt to get to because it's burried under the tank. Once you pull the tank, it's out in the open and easy to access.

While the tank's off, might as well change out the fuel filter too...... a very simple job.

If you're ready for an airfilter....... the tanks off.....

Um... what else can he do while he's in there.....?

Might as well make the best of it!

That's how I go to the shop for a 50p bolt and end up spending £40 :oops:

Quote from: "Tom Herold"While you're in there replacing the stator, there's a press in oil seal I replaced just as a precaution. Triumph of Charlotte, NC, had one on the shelf when I called abotu parts.

Also, the stator cover has a gasket on it.  Either be very careful when pulling the cover off, or have a new gasket on-hand - I had to order one and wait for it to come in.....

The rectifier's a pain in the butt to get to because it's burried under the tank. Once you pull the tank, it's out in the open and easy to access.

While the tank's off, might as well change out the fuel filter too...... a very simple job.

If you're ready for an airfilter....... the tanks off.....

Um... what else can he do while he's in there.....?

Might as well make the best of it!

I'm planning on using a new gasket and getting a new oil seal.  Already did all the other items on your list within the last hundred miles.  

I will report back when I've got the new RR and stator in.

So I finally got the sasquatch voltage fix to work and that took me from 11V to 11.4V at idle and 12V to 12.5V at 4k rpm.  

I have all my added accessories unplugged for the below tests. . .

I checked for a voltage leak via the negative battery terminal and I found that when I removed the heated grip fuse that the multimeter dropped from showing charge to showing nothing.  Could there be a leak there or is the circuit just electrified when the bike is turned off?  I didn't see any difference in volts with or without the heated grip fuse when the bike was running.

My next concern is that with the sasquatch fix I increased I increased output, but that is still way below what I would deem to be normal.  I have a new RR and stator here and checked the RR by plugging the new RR into the bike and the voltages read the same as with the old RR.  Therefore, I don't think the RR is to fault here.  

Is there some way to check the output of the stator?  I'd really like to verify that the stator is to blame before I dump my new oil and tear the case off the engine.  

Any other suggestions would be appreciated.

Quote from: "matttys"Is there some way to check the output of the stator?  I'd really like to verify that the stator is to blame before I dump my new oil and tear the case off the engine.  

Any other suggestions would be appreciated.

First of all you don't need to drain the oil to replace the stator. You'll lose about a tablespoon when you pull the cover but that's about it.

Check the stator. Unplug the stator from the harness. Set your multimeter to volts AC. Rev the bike to around 4000 and measure the volts AC between the three wires from the stator. A-B, B-C, A-C. A healthy stator will read better than 60vac and the readings will be the same (or very close) between the three wires. Make sure you measure AC volts, not DC.

All three configurations from the stator a-b, a-c, b-c are right at about 60vac at 4,000 rpms.  So if it's not the stator or the RR, I'm wondering where my inefficiency lies. . .

How old is the battery?  (Forgive me if you already said... I didn't feel like going back through the whole thread.)

Quote from: "Stretch"It could be that small bits of lead, having flaked off the plates in the battery, shorted a cell and caused some of the incoming voltage to dump to ground inside the battery.  The new battery, having no lead deposits laying across the bottom of the cells, is able to accept and use the full charge coming from the charging system.

Did you check each Stator wire to Ground?  There should be Infinite Ω (no continuity at all).

Quote from: "Stretch"How old is the battery?  (Forgive me if you already said... I didn't feel like going back through the whole thread.)

Brand spank'n new WestCo battery.  I changed that out first as I didn't know how old the PO's battery was.

Quote from: "Stretch"Did you check each Stator wire to Ground?  There should be Infinite Ω (no continuity at all).

I have not done this.  I assume you just ground each line to the negative terminal of the battery?  Also, should it matter if I'm on AC or DC?

On AC the needle moved a hair, but nothing major.  This was the routine on all three outputs from the stator.

Not Voltage, Resistance in Ohms... Ω.  Engine off, Stator disconnected from the R/R.

Quote from: "Stretch"Not Voltage, Resistance in Ohms... Ω.  Engine off, Stator disconnected from the R/R.

Geez, now you are trying to make me remember what I learned in my intro to EE class  :shock:

With the engine off, multimeter to Ohms, there is infinite resistance in all three leads when connected to the negative terminal of the battery.

As it ought to be, no shorts in the Stator.  Good.

Quote from: "Stretch"As it ought to be, no shorts in the Stator.  Good.

I'm reading through the F650 FAQs right now. . . I've read them many times before as I have a FI Dakar, but I've never ventured down the stator/rr path before.

Should it matter if I'm measuring the voltage from a switched source?  I've got the APC2 fuse panel running off the tail light, would wiring the Datel directly to the battery provide a different reading?  I wouldn't think so as the voltage should be the same throughout the entire system.

It may vary .1 or .2 Volts, depending on the internal resistance in the relays, wiring, fuses, connectors, etc.  But not enough to really make a difference here.

Quote from: "Stretch"It may vary .1 or .2 Volts, depending on the internal resistance in the relays, wiring, fuses, connectors, etc.  But not enough to really make a difference here.

Really?  I just connected the Datel to the perminantly "on" side of the APC2 and read 13.1V at idle and 13.7V at 4,000 rpm.  

Could there really be that much inefficiency in the APC2 or in the brake wiring to cause this large of a drop in voltage?  I'm running 10ga wire for the voltage fix and 14ga and 16ga wire for everything else on the bike.

Dang.  That is quite a difference.  There's a big voltage drop going on there somewhere.  13.7 isn't bad.

Quote from: "Stretch"Dang.  That is quite a difference.  There's a big voltage drop going on there somewhere.  13.7 isn't bad.

I agree.  I think my system may be fine and there is something going on with the APC2.  I'm wondering now how to wire my Datel to a switched source to read the actual voltage of the battery without having it always "on"?

I'm using crimped ferruls to mount the wires and have soldered every connection. . .

It draws such a small amount of current, it wouldn't hurt anything to wire it straight to a switched source without a relay.

What a great thread, sure glad I grabbed a Tiger, the camaraderie among owners is amazing!!

Misery loves company.  (http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w74/UrbanSaboteur/Smilies/cheeky-smiley-025.gif)

Quote from: "Stretch"Misery loves company.  (http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w74/UrbanSaboteur/Smilies/cheeky-smiley-025.gif)

Haha, all this "charging system failures" that I've been reading about scared me into thinking that I really had a major problem.  

I'm going to talk to someone from Centech (or one of their distributors) today and will see what they can say about voltage loss.

Thanks for the help last night Stretch!

New plan. . . I'm going to try running a relay tonight that will link the battery straight to the AP-2 and will make it a switched source.

Oh.  I thought you already had the accessory fuse panel powered from a relay.

Quote from: "Stretch"Oh.  I thought you already had the accessory fuse panel powered from a relay.

The AP-2 has 8 connections for accessories; 5 are connected to the bike via a powered source (brake light in my case) and the other 3 are connected to the bike via the battery and are always on.  

I didn't have to use a relay on my F650 for a fuse panel and did not use it here.  Maybe the run from the battery to brake switch in the front of the bike to the brake light in the back of the bike to the fuse panel in the middle is too long and is causing a voltage drop.  That's why I'm adding in the relay.  The other relay in the pictures above is running the Stebel air horn.

14v at idle and 14.5v at cruise . . . I fixed it!!!

So here's what I did:

Shortened the sasquatch fix as short as possible.  I mean really short with 10 ga wire.  

Next my inefficency was with the switched portion of the AP-2 fuse panel. The brake light that I tapped into came from the battery, then to the handle bars, then to the back of the bike, then to above the shock before it connected with the fuse panel.  To fix this I put a simple four pole relay between the battery and the fuse panel.  The previous wire that was attached to the brake line was used to activate the relay. This reduced the run to the fuse panel from about 15 feet to about a foot.  As I was running the volt meter off this circuit it was reading the reduced voltage.  

Now everything is running perfectly and I'm no longer afraid of the Tiger's British charging system.  As a test, I turned on the driving lights, gps and heated grips and the system remained at 14V at idle and 14.5V at cruise.  

Thank you very much to Stretch and the others for helping me through this process!

Awright!   :thumbsup

Just a note...
A good buddy of mine is a Kaw Nomad freak... he was down looking at the 2009/10  (?) 1700cc Nomad.

We  talking about Triumph's 1/2 assed way of doing things and then
about the wiring problems and alternater output, and all the BS.

He said the new 1700 Nomad has a 590 watt output and is oil cooled, tied in with the oil cooler. As a result it is dissipating heat and pumping out at max ..... I see Christmas Tree lights! And heated vests, gloves, boots, flame thrower aux lights, radios, phonograph, and coffee maker!

WTF!

Has anyone tried this unit, I read it is supposed to be a direct replacement for the G-75 but with 30% more output


http://www.electrexworld.co.uk/g175-gen ... 284-0.html (http://www.electrexworld.co.uk/g175-generator-stator-alternator-yamaha-xv1600-road-star-electrical-parts-for-motorcycles-electrex-world-3284-0.html)

Dave

I have an Electrex on my Blackbird - the original toasted itself after 50k miles.  I have their matching reg rec too.  The Blackbird specialist I use:

http://www.jaws-motorcycles.co.uk/ (http://www.jaws-motorcycles.co.uk/)

recommends them - slightly lower output than the Honda's 460 watts - but very robust.  I've known John at JAWS a long time and trust him.

On my Blackbird I run heated grips, HID lights (35w against bulbs 55w but much brighter) autocom / radio and GPS.

Anyone priced re-winds???  My Honda dealer reckons about 2/3 price of replacement, and better control over quality because you can discuss your needs with the re-wind specialist and he'll use the right number of turns / gauge of wire to suit - within physical limits of course...

*** Rant On!***

This is the last thread I'd ever want to have to revive, but here I am.......   again....... and I'm not a happy man at all......

As I was on my bike this afternoon in the midst of my commute home, I watched my voltage meter start the dreaded downward spiral from 13.9 volts to 6 and the bike ultimately stopped running.

For all the love I've given my Tiger, it's failed me again, and this time it left me stranded beside the road. With a heavy heart I dialed my insurance company and requested road side assistance to get the two-wheeled paper weight back to the garage.

As I sat waiting for the flatbed to show up, I pondered parting the bike out..... I pondered selling it off..... I wondered why my Harley's proven more reliable and trouble free..... and then came the embarrassing ride in a tow truck with the very dead Tiger strapped to its flat bed for all the world to see.  I hung my head in shame as my neighbor watched me push the lifeless beast into the garage and close the door.......

I changed the battery for a fresh one and fired off the bike. The voltage at the battery was no more than 12.3 and then started to drain as I turned on the running lights and heated grips, so I knew it was my recently replaced stator and rectifier....... again....... both components were replaced together and only have 5000 miles on them.  This is trully unacceptable behavior and something I'm not going to tolerate for very much longer. My mind is saying "Maybe I should've just kept the Sprint ST and been happy......"

The only consolation is they're Ricks Motorsprots parts and presumably under warranty. I'll be calling him first thing in the morning.

So I started up the Harley, put the old Tiger battery in a saddle bag and rattled off to the nearest autoparts store to have it load tested. Of course the battery failed, it had Tiger stink all over it......

I'm going to work hard to get the bike back on the road as quick as possible. I had a planned trip to Deals Gap, the Cherohala Skyway and The Great Smokey Mountains the weekend after next (28-31 May) and the Tiger was to be my mount while the wife wrings out the Thunderbird.

The Trophy's undergoing it's 24k maintenance and won't be ready in time and there's no way in hell I'm riding my fat assed Harley on those roads!

                                       ****Rant off****

I feel your pain.  I U-Haul'ed mine back home from a trip last fall, due to a charging system failure and no parts within a couple days' delivery time.  The bike is on probation for a while, and it knows it.

Let us know what Rick's Motorsports Electrics has to say.

Okay, Ricks Motorsports will be my parts provider for anything I need in the future.  They're good people with good customer service, and stand by their products.

I called first thing this morning and told them what happend. Since their parts are covered for 12 months from date of purchase without mileage limitations, they had no problem with replacements.

I told them about having money on a pending trip next week and how I needed next-day, or two-day, air delivery. Again, no problem.

Normally, they want their parts back before sending replacements, but were willing to charge me for the new parts, give me a return number for the old parts and will refund my money when I send them back. Good stuff, and rare in todays market place.

I'm going to strip the Tiger down on Friday night and prep everything so all I have to do is drop in the new parts and bolt it back together.  While I'm in there I'm going to move the rectifier out from behind the tank to an area where I can get to it easier and it can breath better. I'll maintain the Sasquatch mod, clip off the connectors and use butt connectors with solder again.

I've come to the conclusion if this problem persists I'm going to start looking at the V-Strom 1000, or a Tiger 1050,  as a viable replacement.  I love my 955i Tiger, but I need better reliability.

Curiousity has me wanting to ask those of you who've experienced the stator an rectifier problem if you've found a sizeable amount of oil behind the stator cover?

If you've read the other thread Dewd started, you've seen where the good people at Custom Rewind attribute the stator failure to oil seepage into the area and subsequent break down of the protective coating on the stator windings.

My last stator failure revealed about a tablespoon amount. As I rip into the stator cover again tonight, I'm anticipating finding oil again despite having replaced the seal.

Anyone else find oil in there?

About a tablespoon of oil in mine each time I've had the cover off.  

This is the first time I've ever heard that there's not supposed be oil behind the alternator cover.  But the dudes at custom rewind know their business better than any of us second-guessers.  If they say that exposure to oil breaks down the insulating varnish on the stator wiring, I'll believe it.  The high-temp epoxy coating on Dewd's new rewind sounds like a great idea, and I believe I'll send in my old Triumph part for the same rewind and treatment.

When I removed my stator cover, there was much more than a tablespoon.  I'd guess 3/4 to a full cup.  It made a good mess on the garage floor for sure.  I didn't go any farther than replacing the stator, so I didn't try to inspect or replace seals.  (maybe I should inspect more closely?)

Kurt at Custom rewind had heard of this before about the Triumph triples, and also Excelsior Henderson. (I think that's who he said)  He was puzzled about why a stator would be designed to operate in a wet environment. "But it happens", he says.

Bixxer Bobb--Custom Rewind is $85.00 including return shipping, no warranty.

Ricks delivered as promised, the parts came in via UPS this afternoon and I started in on the component replacement. Again.....

I decided to relocate the rectifier to the open space between the tank and rear of the engine. Not ideal, but far better than pinched between the tank and frame. Obviously it's closer to the engine and its heat, but it's also positioned with the cooling fins outboard and in the breeze. And conveniently located for replacement too.... Anyway....

I fabricated a metal bracket that attached at the powerlet after drilling two small holes. The bracket also mounts at the old rectifier locations top hole so it's rigid, but the rectifier can be removed from the mount with ease, and without having to to remove anything else.

To get to my stator, I have to pull the left side engine guard, but that's a simple 4 bolt operation.

I'll finish the wiring tomorrow morning and balance the throttle bodies since I'll already have the tank off and didn't do them when I did the 24k maintenance.

We'll see how this goes.... my old stator's boxed up and addressed to Custom Rewinds, they'll get their hands on it next week.

I just did the RR Rewire on my '06.

It takes about 2 hours if you have all your parts ready.

4 - F Blade end connects
2- feet Black 12 ga wire
2-feet Red  12 ga wire
1- 10/12 ga splice  (yellow)
1- 10/12 ga eyelet terminal ( yellow)
1- 30 amp fuse
1- HD 'in-line' fuse holder ( 30 amp/grn )
1/2 dz plastic wire ties.
Electrician tape.
Pencil soldering torch/flux/solder

Remove:
Seat - turns signals - handlebars & risers - 2 black plastic side covers -
Left Plastic side cover w/ seat lock - battery - battery box.

Lift tank and rest rear of tank on crossframe rear of battery.

Your harness connector is under the tank. On one side is 2 red wires and
2 blk wires. On the other side of the connector is brown wires.  Pull the harness connector apart; Wrap the side that has the brown wires with electrician tape and put a plastic wire tie around it.You don't need it.

Refer to the 'how-to' for the rest of the story.

It is much simpler with the tank lifted.

This is an easy thing to do. Even if you are 'iffy' about these things.
Just keep in mind.... YOU ARE NOT doing anything that cannot be
undone and 'hooked back up' as normal, simply be plugging the 2 harness connectors together again.

Thanks to Eric & Sasquatch.

Back on the road now. Idle shows 13.2 and >3000 rpms are at 14.2.  

With my Piaa 35w driving lights I'm running at 12.8 at idle and 13.8 >3500rpm.

This is with both front headlights on also.  

I don't notice any more heat on my left leg where the RR was relocated to, and hope the cooling fins have a better chance at keeping the temps down now that they can breath a bit.

I can live with that. It looks like I'll be able to enjoy Deals Gap, the Cherohala and Great Smokies as planned and the fat Harley can stay at home in the garage!  :D

Glad to hear it.  That R/R will be much happier with a bit of breeze carrying the heat away.

Have put something similar on the other post as well, but for those who haven't looked there (yet).

The Rectifier Regulator block is dissipating a lot of heat. At worst case it could be the entire Alternator output of around 350watts, but typically its should be a lot less though could easily be around half that figure.

Because the air temp, in any country, will be a lot lower than the heatsink on the RR then heat will be transferred away from the RR to the external air. Its this transfer you want to/need to optimise by improving the airflow over the RR package.

Does the wire between the VR and battery get warm?

I performed the voltage fix on my Tiger a year ago.  Since, I've replaced the stator and VR.  A couple of weeks ago, the inline fuse holder between the VR and battery burned up.  The fuse didn't blow, but the plastic housing melted.  The contacts of the fuse holder and fuse were carbonized, creating an open circuit so the battery could not charge.  The VR is working as it should.  Obviously, I replaced the wire and fuse holder, but note that the wire gets warm.  I figure that with 30 amps going through a 12-gauge wire, it probably will get a little warm.  I also noted that the fuse holder doesn't make contact with a large part of the fuse blades.

Any experience with this?

Quote from: "2aRover"Does the wire between the VR and battery get warm?

I performed the voltage fix on my Tiger a year ago.  Since, I've replaced the stator and VR.  A couple of weeks ago, the inline fuse holder between the VR and battery burned up.  The fuse didn't blow, but the plastic housing melted.  The contacts of the fuse holder and fuse were carbonized, creating an open circuit so the battery could not charge.  The VR is working as it should.  Obviously, I replaced the wire and fuse holder, but note that the wire gets warm.  I figure that with 30 amps going through a 12-gauge wire, it probably will get a little warm.  I also noted that the fuse holder doesn't make contact with a large part of the fuse blades.

Any experience with this?

Yep, happened to me a couple months back.  It seems that even though the fuse is rated for 30 amps, the fuse holder is not, and the contacts got so hot that the fuse holder melted without blowing the fuse.

Here's my fix... Maxi Fuse and fuse holder.  Look at the size difference in the contacts, compared with a normal-size ATC fuse...

(http://www.bcae1.com/images/jpegs/fusemaxi.jpg)

These fuse holders are capable of handling nearly 100 amps, and are available at car stereo stores.  The 30-amp fuse was 2 bucks, and the fuse holder ten.

I soldered everything together and the wire and fuse holder remain stone cold.  No problems now.

Be sure to keep a spare with your bike.  You can't find these fuses just anywhere.

Thanks, Stretch.  I'd seen the maxi fuses at Schuck's, but no holders, and was under a time constraint to get to northern Idaho.  I'll check the local stereo joint for the good stuff and make the appropriate changes.

Cheers!   :wings

Quote from: "2aRover"I'd seen the maxi fuses at Schuck's, but no holders

Same here.  I finally asked a bud at Autozone (where I bought the fuse), and he told me about the car stereo place.  Those cats with the 700-watt amplifiers use Maxi fuses with inline holders to power those stereo systems you can hear for miles.  The wire in the inline holder is the size of a pencil... 2 or 4 gauge.  No chance of it ever getting hot with a Tiger's 30-amp charging load.

I'm sure it must be a dumb idea to mount the Regulator/Rectifier to the outside of the forward sprocket housing--the black plastic piece that covers the gear that drives the chain. Otherwise someone would've thought of it. Right...?

My Tiger's in pieces. Having largely left maintenance to others, I don't have the resources for that now. As funding permits I'll do the Sasquatch mod, a new stator and R/R from Rick's if needed, a dash voltmeter, and a coolant flush. And Christ knows what else I'll think of while it's lying around with its guts all over the garage.

(--Theory being that Beltway commutes of 45+ min largely in 1st and 2nd gear aren't helping my beast's battery b/c of cooling fan needs (seems like it's always on) and overheating R/R. So anything I can do in the cooling area must be at least some good...)

Anyway. The wires to/from the R/R look almost exactly the right length. That housing is a good size and would be easy to drill through. The most obvious downside I can see is maybe kicking the R/R when shifting gears. But even so, some sort of open-air cage could be fabbed, no?

 :idea:  :?:

If you go back to page 5, you'll see where I mounted the R/R to the powerlet bracket using a couple of stainless screws and a fabricated mount.  I think if you put your R/R down on the counter sprocket cover, it's really going to be in the way of your left foot.

I put down 1100 miles this last weekend (ride report in the works), riding in the rain and heat and can say I'm happy with the location, as well as the performance of the modifications. All weekend I was able to climb off the bike and put my hand on the rectifier without it feeling like it was overheating at any time, and I never felt any additional heat on my left leg.  According to my Datel meter, I was running a consistent 14.4 at the battery with the RPMs above 3000 even with my 35w Pia's on I was at 13.9/14.0. My idle voltage was 12.8 when warm.  

It may not be the prettiest, but it's functional and that's good enough for me.

The Maxi Fuse is the only way to go with the Sasquatch mod. With teh 10ga 30A inline fuse holder I picked up at Auto Zone, it quickly overheated and failed to properly charge the battery. When I went to the Maxi Fuse, I also upgraded to 8ga wire from the R/R wires to the battery, now things are charging the way they're supposed to and they hardly get hot at all.

The bike's still on probation. It knows it and is on its best behavior.....  I had a great weekend of riding..... time will tell.....

The maxi-fuse is in and the wire no longer gets warm.  I'm happy.  During the operation, I also installed a Datel voltmeter.  To switch it with the ignition, I added a relay that, when energized by the ignition switch, connects the Datel to the battery.  The relay drops about .5 volts, presumably due to contact resistance.  The voltmeter increases my confidence considerably, as I can see what's going on at any given moment.

This has been a good exploratory thread, and I appreciate every post.

This was a Tiger club I did NOT want to be a part of!  

Oh well, misery loves company and I'm in good company here.

Yes, I'm having charging issues too, and only after 20,000 km.  Mind you, I bought it from my father and he had "dead battery" issues while it was under warranty, so that makes me wonder if something was up long before and the dealer "solved" the problem.

Thanks to the Haynes manual and this fine forum of feline aficionados, I was able to isolate the problem to just the R/R.  

I figure I found it before a grounded wire shorted and spread to the stator because the alternator is pumping out a good 60 V (AC) at 4,000rpms (thanks for the info!), but it's sending less than 1.0 V (DC) from the R/R.

Now she's back in the garage while I wait for a new R/R from Rick's.

I'm going to try and mount the new one near the accessory plug, maybe seeking some professional help fabricating a suitable rig.  I figure with a better R/R in that position on the bike, with the cooling fins to the wind, she should be a-ok.

Any further wisdom out there?

You say you believe the stator is ok, and 60V would suggest it maybe..... but, have you checked each winding with an ohm-meter to determine that ALL of them are fine, and /or did you you check the output of each winding?

Reason I ask, if the R/R has failed and shorted, which seems to be the standard case, then it could have damaged 1 of the stator windings. The alternate option is that a shorted (or part shorted) stator winding will cause the R/R failure..... either way if you measure the stator output simply with a voltmeter you will probably see 60v, unless you check each winding separately OR use a scope.

It would be rare, me thinks, to catch an R/R failure without any damage being done to the stator.

damn oxnsox, you're freakin me out, man!  JK

i'm no electrician but i'm pretty confident with a multimeter... so let me run it past everyone.

before the R/R burnout, i'd  replaced and burped the cooling system.

before that, the Sasquatch bypass, and I hooked up an LED brakelight system with integrated brake flasher.

the thing about the brakelight is that it is based on two  voltage regulators, a 10V and a 12V, so if the source is less than 12V, the tail light looks dimmer (but flashes!) when you hit the brakes.  normally it works great, but the other day i swapped bikes so i could see the brakelight in action.  well, it was dim and on further inspection i figured it was the R/R.

maybe i did get really lucky  :shock:   ?

thinking about it now, doing a coolant flush and burp was a lot of running the bike while on it's centrestand--ie, not a lot of wind blowing up my Tiger's arse to cool that damn R/R.

with the recent tinkering in mind, i ran through the suggested diagnostics, including testing each prong of the 3-pin connector from the alternator plug for continuity and the alternator checked out fine.

should i crack the lid off the alternator and dig deeper?

should i send it in for a rewind / buy a replacement, just to be safe?

or trust my luck on a new R/R from Rick's and hope that i stopped the gremlins before they could fry the stator?

how hard is it to dismantle the alternator?

 :evil:  and i was hoping for an easy start to the riding season.

MOVED

How to change your Stator / Breather Seal
http://tigertriple.com/forum/index.php/msg,53241 (http://tigertriple.com/forum/index.php/msg,53241)

well, i guess if you're gonna do it, better do it right.


thanks for the breakdown.  


now let's hope the parts arrive before the beer runs out...

Replacing the stator and breather seal gets easier the third or fourth time you do it  :lol:

Toka, not trying to give you palpitations just helping myself make sense of your diagnosis because we all have different ways of coming to our own conclusions.
If you measured the same volts on all three windings then you're right it does seem ok.

:D  no worries!  I'm just glad to get so much information and feedback from this group...

...I'm going to try to mount the new R/R like Tom Herold did, right beside the aux socket.

Results will be posted!

thanks everyone

didn't think the 2006 had that breather tube? good write ups and info!

It doesn't...  The 2006 (some late 2005's) has a labyrinth breather system, not the centrifugal system of the early 2005's and older.

I'm sorry I swear I checked his avatar and signature for a bike year but somehow I missed it.

still a good writeup. I like thread with info and pics. Helps out a lot!

Well fine... then I guess I better do it right and add some more pictures.  :)

http://tigertriple.com/forum/index.php/msg,53241 (http://tigertriple.com/forum/index.php/msg,53241)

I've had 4 'modern' Triumphs now.  The Trophy was, and is, a great bike.  The Daytona is in my friend's garage now, zero issues.  My first Tiger, an '03 started having charging issues ~ 35k miles.  I replaced the stator, after discovering one of the phases was zero output.  Replaced that, to find my RR was fried.  Replaced the RR, worked for ~3k miles, then...yep - stator fried again.  I replaced with aftermarket Electrex unit.  I also replaced the regulator at the same time, and did the wiring 'mod'.  I traded the damn thing in because I no longer trusted it on longer rides.
  What did I trade it in for?  A new '06 Tiger.  The Tiger fits me, and my riding style.  I really can't think of another bike I'd rather have.
   So....I was coming home Sunday from the Mid-Ohio Vintage Daze, and my tach, etc all dropped to zero.  Yep.  No juice.  I went to the nearest Wally-mart - after having a Harley guy push start me  :oops: - and they charged and checked the battery for me (free).  Battery fine.  I limped it home, and checked things out when I got there.  Stator one phase gone.  Shit.  I'm going riding in SW Colorado in 2 weeks.  This time, I'm replacing both stator, and RR with the new "hotshot" one from Rick's (w/MOSFETs + $30).  
  Same model bike, same miles, same problems.  WTF?  Obviously, an engineering defect, since no other models of 955s seem to have this issue.  Heat?  Probably.  Design?  Definitely!  
  I love Triumphs, and always have.  If this doesn't fix the damn thing for good, I'm going to set it on fire where it breaks down, and NEVER buy ANOTHER!!!!!
  Triumph, are you listening???
 :BangHead

Stay tuned.... :roll:

Nice info in here.

I'm currently having a more subtle problem on my 2004  - the battery is very slowly running flat. I have to put the bike on a trickle charger over night every week or two. The battery is only about 1.5 years old, and the one before it lasted only a half year or so. Then yesterday I discovered that using my heated hand grips (Triumph part) no longer heats the hand grips much, but does drain the battery nicely. I'm guessing corrosion somewhere, or a worn/bad connection.  :(

I've never felt good about adding accessories onto this bike because of all the charging system issues (mine and others), but I'd really like to plug in heated clothing and run some accessory lights. Has anyone found a way to get a higher output stator on these bikes?

Sounds like it's not charging properly...  Can you check the charge current and voltage

After being 'bitten' by the weak charging system, I've done the following;
1. replaced stator and regulator with aftermarket (Rick's)
2. SOLDERED the connection between the two above
3. installed a nice digital voltmeter
4. keep an eye on the meter while turning on heated grips, vest, gps, etc.  If the voltage on the meter drops, I turn off an accessory or two.  
Kind of like in the Apollo 13 movie...
5. keep the battery fully charged when it's sitting via trickle charger


Finger's crossed - heading to Southern Mexico next month.

This thread is pretty old - and I hate to revive it...  However, my '05 Tiger w/ 32.5k on the clock gave me grief on a trip to Nova Scotia. Voltage output was 12.8 - 13.2.  I replaced the battery some where in New Brunswick and all seemed OK until I used heated gear and/or aux lights.  Made it home by managing the elect. demands on the bike. After reading this - I verified stator condition to be OK, I relocated the RR to under the front fairing and the Sasquatch rewire.  I realize the wires are longer, but not that much more compared to the OEM wiring harness and I used 12ga wire throughout...  All this being said - the bike won't start.  It cranks over sounds like it wants to, but does not fire.  It also seems to drain the battery pretty quick while cranking.  I can't see any connection to the relocation/rewire that would influence the starting/running of the engine other than charging.  I'm still using all the stock components - just wanted to relocate/rewire to see if that helped before going w/ new components since thay all worked just a few days ago.  Any thoughts out there....?

OK - somehow, the bike started...  I pulled the two leads from the RR that go directly to the battery just to simply isolate it from the bike - after doing so, it started.  I reinstalled the connections and the bike started - again...  WTF..??  Anyway - the initial voltage readings looked good - @ idle I have 13.5 and 14.3 @ 3500rpm.  I did let bike run until the cooling fan kicked on and checked voltage - dropped to 12.9 w/ fans and aux lights.  Funny thing is - the bike would not restart when it was hot.  I let it cool down and it's fine...  Always something...

So I'm installing my Rick's stator and never thought about getting a gasket and the original ripped when removing the cover. Will some sort or RTV sealer suffice or do I need to get the gasket.

Also, what is the sealer that seals the opening where the wires come out?

No burnt connectors, No blown fuses!

Well my GDMF regulator tests OK,
The stator appeared to be sending out less than required AC voltage so I ordered a stator from Rick's and installed it and I still have a GDMF'ing charging problem.

That was $150 I didn't have to spend and now I guess I have to order a GDMF'ng regulator/rectifier which is another $150.

Looks like it the bicycle for me until I can save up some money!

Quote from: "nd4spd"OK - somehow, the bike started...  I pulled the two leads from the RR that go directly to the battery just to simply isolate it from the bike - after doing so, it started.  I reinstalled the connections and the bike started - again...  WTF..??  Anyway - the initial voltage readings looked good - @ idle I have 13.5 and 14.3 @ 3500rpm.  I did let bike run until the cooling fan kicked on and checked voltage - dropped to 12.9 w/ fans and aux lights.  Funny thing is - the bike would not restart when it was hot.  I let it cool down and it's fine...  Always something...

Going with the theavier wire is good.  Maybe the issue you had/have is in pinching your new cables, or the earth connections.
Check em all (if you haven't already).

My advice.
Use heavy ga wire; Solder your connections.

BTW:
After I did the Sasquatch re-wire my volmeter is consistently 14.3 -14.5v;
Drops to 13.5 at idle; Sets at 14.3 with heated grips on full; drops to 13.8 with aux lites on ( PS will eliminate them with new HID lights ); I have not tried Gerbings yet but I suspect it will be 13.8v).

The Sasquatch re-wire is a credible move..... PAY ATTENTION TO WHAT YOU ARE DOING !

Quote from: "TigerTrax"My advice.
Use heavy ga wire; Solder your connections.

You'll get the crimp police after you.....

:ImaPoser

Quote from: "Fe Man"No burnt connectors, No blown fuses!

Well my GDMF regulator tests OK,
The stator appeared to be sending out less than required AC voltage so I ordered a stator from Rick's and installed it and I still have a GDMF'ing charging problem.

That was $150 I didn't have to spend and now I guess I have to order a GDMF'ng regulator/rectifier which is another $150.

Looks like it the bicycle for me until I can save up some money!

Apparently I incorrectly measured/diagnosed the stator and replaced a good part; so it must be the regulator/rectifier. Ordered and installed and I still have a charging system failure.

New stator, new rectifier/regulator, new battery and still no charging....
What do you do after everything has been replaced?

you trace the circuit with an ohm meter.... pull the fuses and check for continuity...

Quote from: "iansoady"You'll get the crimp police after you.....

and the crimp police don't ride my bike.... I've had poorly crimped connections heat up and cause problems, but never my soldered connection.  :D

I have only owned one crimper that can crimp a connector well enough to not need solder.... the frame is $90, and the dies I have range from $45 up to $190 per die (WIHA brand). Every other "professional grade ratcheting crimper" left enough space in the crimp to allow solder through. The WIHA won't.

I use solder to fill in the small air spaces, sort of like using solder to "sweat" a copper pipe. It's just filler where less expensive crimpers are used. The crimp is the main part of the connection - and a GOOD quality heat shrink tube will provide strain relief. Use the proper flux as well.

If you're joining wires, or doing surface mount soldering, that's different.... here it's just a filler. And a good crimper can fix that.

Always check your work - a good idea (either crimped or crimped and soldered) - with the bike running - does the positive side get warm? hot? is the fuse holder hot? Try crimping down again. Still hot? then try a small amount of solder.

Anyone looked at those inline 12V circuit breakers yet? They use them in boating / marine applications. Uses a termina lug, not a crappy blade connector.... would probably help to reduce overall resistance, and you don't have a fuse holder over heating.

The new kit here comes with them now... no more fuse holders.

http://www.roadstercycle.com/Shindengen ... %20kit.htm (http://www.roadstercycle.com/Shindengen%20FH012AA%20Regulator%20upgrade%20kit.htm)

Whether you crimp or solder (or don't trust yourself and do both), the long term result depends upon using the right tools, the right parts, and doing it right.

As for in-line type breakers, I use items from these guys http://www.e-t-a.com/us_thermal+M55e7bca3d7c.html a lot. They have a great range, but these types I use most often. They're not cheap but they're compact and reliable enough to put into boats that race around the world

Has anyone investigated using something like:
CB223 ATC Style Breakers
12 Volt, Type III (manual reset) in 10, 15, 20, 25 and 30 amp ratings. Designed to fit the ATC fuse footprint, these circuit breakers comply with
SAE standard J553.

http://www1.cooperbussmann.com/6/BladeF ... ories.html (http://www1.cooperbussmann.com/6/BladeFusesandAccessories.html)

I know that this is an ancient thread, but I'm doing a bunch of work on the ol girl this month and am wondering about things to do for an extended road trip. My tiger has about 25k on the clock, and am thinking about this upgrade. Any recommendations?  Does Rick have a website?

Do you know if the system is factory?  I personally would not travel far without the charging system sorted.  It can fail in a hurry. 

I have Stretch's backup system in my bike.  Not sure why he built a backup since it is bulletproof.

Ricks stator, CBR 1000 Mofset regulator, maxi fuse and ZERO wire connectors to overheat, melt, reduce flow and fail.

It's already been mentioned on here but when I fitted mine blimey did it pep the motor up  :icon_lol:,but since then it's been in bits with the sus problem so I'm looking forward to trying it when it's all back together,but in recent years I've carried a spare when travelling.

My bike had 19,000 on it and wouldn't charge worth anything.  I assume the PO just put it on a charger all the time because it lasted like 5 days or daily riding before it wouldn't crank.

I put one of these from ebay.

SHINDENGEN MOSFET FH020AA REGULATOR/RECTIFIER KIT

Its pretty much plug and play and the latest tech.