So, today's little game is the charging circuit. Rotor is down on resistance but an acquaintance suggested re-flashing the rotor windings (this thing doesn't have permanent magnets) before we part with cash. I read how this works on mains electricity gennys but can't make the leap to what I have on the bench. It seems that if the rotor loses all residual magnetism (this one has) they need a jolt to wake them up.
Anyone come across this?
Sorry BB being a bit thick the rotor is an electro magnet?
if so how is it excited slip rings or induction?
Slip rings. I understand the physics ie how they work, I just haven't come across re-flashing before. Here's what it says on a Guzzi forum:
The Right Way to Polarize Guzzi Generators
In this Tip, Gary Cheek, longtime contributor to the Internet loopframe list, tells the right way to polarize the generators on the V700, Ambassador, and Eldorado:
You need to know the difference in the method of polarizing betweenan INTERNAL-ground generator and an EXTERNAL-ground generator. To determine which system you are dealing with look at the brush holder that is connected to ground. An internally grounded generator will also have ONE of the field leads connected to it; an externally grounded gene will have no other wire connected to the grounded terminal. With an INTERNAL ground (such as the generators used on Guzzis) you polarize by DISCONNECTING the FIELD lead and MOMENTARILY touching it to the BAT terminal on the regulator. With an EXTERNAL ground you just momentarily connect a jumper wire from the BAT to the GEN or ARM terminals of the regulator.
I have seen many situations where every thing else looks okay, but the generator was not working, and that was remedied by re-polarizing. Folks take the generator apart to replace brushes and after reassembling fail to re-polarize. Do it by the book, and avoid simple problems!
It is true, GENERATORS need polarising.
However, you have an ALTERNATOR. You risk real and permanent damage if you try a procedure NOT recommended for your motorcycle (you did state Ambassador, Eldorado, V700). Do NOT try this under ANY circumstances!!
Good news: the parts on your bike are the same as those on a BMW. So you have another avenue to try for parts. Years ago, I found BMW parts were much cheaper than MG. I also found out that the early (I had a 1975 850T) bikes did not have ventilation, so added the venting ring from a later bike. It goes between the cover and engine case, spaces the cover out about 10mm. Yours should have this ring, but check.
There are also companies that repair/rebuild these parts. I've used rebuilt to good effect, but t'was so long ago I have no contact info.
Alternators, BTW, are "plug and play", you do not need do any polarising or other such mumbo-jumbo.
Good luck, those are great bikes!! I'm just a wee tall for them (knees want to be where rocker covers are...)
Cosmo
If it is an alternator and has brushes / slip rings surely the battery energises the rotor coils to bootstrap the process, can't see why you need any residual magnetism.
If the rotor and stator coils are good, brushes are good and you can verify power at the rotor connections to energise the rotor coils you should get AC out of the stator. If you got reasonable AC but no DC your rectifier regulator is stuffed.
Thanks guys, all input gratefully received. I emailed Newtronics yesterday (they make the retro-fitted reg / rec). I'm still awaiting a response but it looks like the Ducati dealer was off the mark. This thing should just work, but I'll go through it on Monday a step at a time and let you know how I get on.
That's the conclusion I came to but the Web quote confused me and without a circuit diagram I decided to keep my mouth shut for fear of confusing the issue more.
its obviously knackered... I'll take the bike off your hands for £50 :XXsunsmile :hat10
new (pattern) rotors are around £50 from Gutsibits or Motobins
Pics, I need pics of that fine Goose to really be of any help........o.k. I won't be much help......I just wanted to see the bike.
oh and by the way, i think with the newtronics unit the charging light wont work..
Cheers Neil. I can't even remember a charge light (seeing it again tomorrow). The whole thing was re-wired by an "expert" without reference to a diagram. Can't be too harsh though, until it stopped charging everything was fine and it does run. Need to check slip rings are getting 12v and then see if there's ac coming out of the three connectors. Resistance across all three segments of the stator are equal and about right to the manual so it is pointing to the low resistance in the rotor windings. All the talk of 'flashing' seems to have been a red herring.
agree that 'flashing' is something i remember from my days of messing around with old cars that ran generator systems... however, it is also mentioned in 'the bible' known as Guzziology as something that has cured otherwise mysterious charging problems on the bosch alternator system... the author doesnt know how or why but connecting a jumper cable to the battery positive and momentarily touching it on the D+ terminal works... ?? I sometimes struggle with christmas tree lights so dont ask me :hat10
a summary of some of his tests/checks/tips..
rotor windings - measure at slip rings resistance around 3.5 ohms
rectifier grounding - standard earth point is behind rubber bumper on the frame so doesnt always tighten down properly
stator windings - approx 0.5 ohm resistance between pairs of the large spade connectors
stator grounding - some models have a black wire connected to the D- terminal, others rely on the mounting screws to complete ground. if the latter then you can add on and ground it to the frame.
if you end up buying a rotor, the one for a BMW is slightly cheaper but needs to be for a /6 model as other BMWs look the same but are slightly smaller circumference. To remove the rotor you'll need a hardened piece of rod 5mm diameter and 2" long (i cut down an allen key).. remove bolt insert 'tool' insert bolt and the rotor should pop off as you tighten it...
one of the main problems with guzzi wiring is that firstly theres to much of it :hat10 (the power for the starter seems to go around the whole bike before getting to the starter but there is a mod for that!), the connectors can be of poor quality and some of the earth return paths are a bit iffy (on mine i've added extra earths back to points on the frame thence back to the battery rather than hoping it will travel on its own through rust, paint and muck)..
oh by the way, if you want 'interesting' wiring you should see my Ducati.. previous owner did away with the original fuse box which is stuck behind the front wheel (good idea) but all the replacement wiring is the same colour - black! (not so clever!)
Can you post me a link please Neil, I found the site but not the thread. Cheers!
Here's a pic of the menagerie (http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c273/BixxerBob/IMAG0294.jpg)
Whats the red and black bike behind the 916/748 Duc
From the front it's a yellow stripped for maintenance 748, behind it an orange Laverda 750S, behind that a black Gilera 350, then to the right there's the blue Guzzi, behind that a yellow Ducati 900SS then the one you're interested in, a red and black Morini 3 1/2 then next right the Stark and finally in front of that the Gas Gas.
Here's a better pic of the Guzzi for DeepSouthTiger, it's been resprayed Ford Midnight Blue:
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c273/BixxerBob/IMAG0293.jpg)
Checks today revealed that 12v across the sliprings produces magnetism in the rotor, but - with the ign on - no 12v is coming out of the slipring supply from the reg/rec. Next step is to run the engine with 12v direct from the battery to the slipring brushes to see if it charges. If it does, result, I'll just put in a wire from the ign switch. If it doesn't, but still with the 12v in place, I'll check for ac coming from the stator. I'mnot sure what the voltage should be but as long as they're all the same I'll then be happy the fault lies with the reg/rec.
Edit: just read a document sent to me by NeilD. It seems that some bikes weren't fitted with a ballast resistor so if the ign warning light bulb fails, the charging circuit stops working, which seems a bit unfair; as the one thing that could tell you the battery is going flat, is the cause of the battery going flat! :BangHead
:5huh doesn't quite do that piece of Italian electrical design justice, must have gone to the Lucasi school of electrical engineering :sign13
I listed after a 3 1/2 Moroni when I was at school, then I followed one round a few corners on my Tiger Cub and went off the idea quickly, nice looking bike just the same.
Agreed the Morini is a pretty bike. This is the second one I've come across, the other was one stored in the bike club at RAF Wyton for many years.
As for the electrics, it's hard enough not having a manual, but adding in previous owners modifications is making it even more fun. Not. I'm learning a lot though :qgaraduate
Like with Girly knowledge, you have to sift through an awful lot of other people's supposition (read: bollocks) to find the gems of good info and come to some sort of meaningful understanding. I stop short of using the term "knowing" because - taking as an example the Sagem ECU - a lot is best guess; it's not possible to find out exactly what's going on beacuse the code is locked. At least with these older bikes they have fairly simple systems so it's just a case of working out how the dots join up.
One reason I air my theories as they develop/share my pain on here is so that others can help with said development/develop their knowledge at the same time
You hit on why I don't own Italian bikes anymore. Lucas, Miller, Wipac I get. Ducati Elettrotecnica and Magneti Marelli made me lose ALL my hair.
I once changed an Aermacchi to a Honda charging system, the OEM was so bad. Yes, it took some machining, but worth it.
I changed a Ducati 860 to a Dyna III ignition. More machining. Result: both ran. More than you could say for stock. Also changed the regulator to Zener diode, the controls to Honda, etc. etc. etc.
Though, truly, Moto Guzzi electrics were the best of the (bad) lot. And I LIKED the switches, nice and compact. Just poorly made.
Italian bikes were so traumatic, I'd almost welcome a French motorcycle...but I've owned Citroëns.
Cosmo
Quote from: cosmo on January 19, 2013, 05:11:59 AM
...but I've owned Citroëns.
What a brave man.
:ImaPoser
Quote from: metalguru on January 19, 2013, 11:53:40 AM
Quote from: cosmo on January 19, 2013, 05:11:59 AM
...but I've owned Citroëns.
What a brave man.
:ImaPoser
Citroën parts dept. (GS X2) "I need all the bits to replace the exhaust system" 30 mins later a huge pile of parts and a similar long bill "I only need the exhaust parts, not the engine and transmission rebuild kits" :qgaraduate you'll need those for putting it all back together after you replace the exhaust" :pottytrain2
Gun gum, Heinz beans can, house clips, Autotrader, sorted :thumbsup
I remember helping a friend do the exhaust in his Citroen (think it was a CS?) in 1981. As well as having to remove all sorts of ancilliaries we had to unbolt the engine and jack it up to get the old pipework out.
And I realised when sorting an ign problem on another friend's 2CV that Citroen took a set of points and built a car around them. Front if the car had to come off to get at them. Then there was the Renalt 5 oil filter that was accessed through a hatch in the wheel arch.
When you think about it, bikes aren't so bad....
About 35yrs ago I vowed never, ever, ever work on any French car of any description what so ever, only exception was to totally remove it from the face of this earth.
Caused a lot of arguements and fed up customers but stood my ground every time. To say the least it was an experience gained decision.
A good party trick was to cut one in half just behind the drivers seat as the things are front wheel drive and hurtle round a field untill something in the engine made a bid for freedom or it caught fire etc......AAAHHH happy days.
Quote from: cosmo on January 19, 2013, 05:11:59 AM
...but I've owned Citroëns.
Cosmo
And I used to work on them, DS's to be exact, fantastic cars, 20 years ahead of their time, but yeah, challenging to say the least, most days we would end up making ourselves another special tool to do something or the other, I can remember adjusting the handbrake required a 2ft long bar with a 10mm Open end spanner welded to the end.(Inboard Discs). Made some money though, as you say nobody would touch em, including most dealers :thumbsup
Citroens, just what you get used to.
At least with most Citroens you get good brakes that don't seize and you don't have to change the fluid every two years because it's got water in it.
Most of the other stuff is just experience, like the points for instance, anyone like to explain where else you would put them on a flat twin? Only two answers front or back......
OK back on track. The Guzzi charge warning light lamp had failed, but replacing it didn't do anything for the lack of volts at the slipring. I now need to study the reg/rec diagram and see what it's doing. Could be that it's not passing the 12v supply through because it doesn't sense the battery needs it - going on the theory that the reg/rec varies the slipring voltage to control the stator output. Can't wait for next week's exciting installment :hat10
This is turning into a much bigger learning experience than I thought.
The wattage of the warning lamp is crucial to the effective charging, the exact wattage of the lamp escapes me but just saying.
:thumbsup
:qgaraduate
Quote from: metalguru on January 21, 2013, 02:52:25 PM
The wattage of the warning lamp is crucial to the effective charging, the exact wattage of the lamp escapes me but just saying.
:thumbsup
Aye, I got that from NeilDs pdf. Since all lamps are the same, I'm taking a punt that I have the right one. I assumed (wrongly) that with ign on and engine off I'd get 12v at the slipring connection coming out of tye reg/rec. Not true. So far I have12v to the lamp which lights when grounded. Next is to re-assemble the whole thing, start her up, then fault find.
Newtronics site says the charge light do oesnt work with their reg rec so assume the rotor is 'excited' ooo err :hat10 by another means ?
God knows.....
I can rig 12v to the rotor, but the output will be on max all the time. I have a circuit diagram for the motronics but haven't had time to study it yet. More reading to do....
Quote from: Bixxer Bob on January 22, 2013, 06:31:27 PM
God knows.....
I can rig 12v to the rotor, but the output will be on max all the time. I have a circuit diagram for the motronics but haven't had time to study it yet. More reading to do....
Just wondering here, as I remember on the old Lucas ACR alternators the warning lamp was 2.2w.
If Newtronics say thier reg/rec doesn't require the warning lamp, the theory could be the warning lamp is bridged so a 12v switched supply is sent to excite the field, thus causeing full output from the generator regulated by the reg/rec. It doesn't sound like a foolproof mod as the field is getting full amperage and may end up as an efficient heater, whereas with a lamp or resister in line it will only allow limited amps to the field, or am I rambling on a tangent!
Surely if there is amperage going through the lamp it will illuminate all be it dimly, maybe that's considered normal on Italian electrics.
Newtronics does away with lamp. Has 3 ac wires, yellow, red charging wire, brown sensing wire and white wire which feeds rotor coils. It must vary output on white to match need sensed on brown.
Only thing to do now is check all connections (which means pulling half the bike apart to get to them) then run bike with it all assembled and check output on white. If nothing, guess is reg rec is fubar'd
Would you believe Honda had this system when the 650 fours came along. They caused much headscratching too.
Many of the charging faults were physical, even though it looked ok, it wasn't. One of the most popular was the brush set which looked ok as quite a bit of meat left on them but it wasn't quite enough to make contact with the comm. Another novel solution to a non existant problem. This system was sans lamp too.
Iv'e read about the brush issue already so one of the first thing to check. Enough studying, time to get dirty....
We have volts!!!
14.7 of the little bar stewards to be exact!
Simple fix once I found it, dodgy connection on the reg/rec power supply. Once fixed I immediately had 11.8 volts on the white (exciter) lead going to the rotor windings. Re'assembled the alternator, put the tank back on, fired her up and voila!!!
Somehow, the charging light works as well, butonly goes out when output reaches 14v so is on lit on tickover and at low revs. Then it stopped working so I have that to look at next week.
Now she needs a good clean, the cowl and screen putting back on and the brakes and clutch going over. Then she'll be ready for an MOT.
Thanks everyone for their input, no doubt we'll be at it again when I start on the Laverda. :hat10
Quote from: Bixxer Bob on January 28, 2013, 01:44:01 PM
... when I start on the Laverda. :hat10
"
Italian manufacturer of high performance motorcycles"
Have we not learned?!?!? :)
Cosmo
There are11 in the collection, all Italian; Morini, Ducati, Laverda and Gilera. Oh, and a GasGas. :XXsunsmile
So by the end of this you will have found all those little Italian intricate gremlins designed in at manufacture and you will have pulled every single hair from your head painfully one-by-one.
GOOD LUCK.
:BangHead
well with those 'Zane' Laverdas, the engine was more likely to have exploded before the electrics had chance to give up the ghost! :hat10
Cheers Neil!! :hat10
This is the baby...
My good friend Marcus had one of those......he loved it!