Originally posted over at TriumphRat--don't mean to be a prat, if you've read it already, for chrissakes do something else!
I brought el tigre down to our local BMW this morning. I test rode the 1200 when shopping, and after I bought the Triumph, I had called the BMW sales manager to inform him of my choice. He had taken the news with so much good grace that I offered to bring the machine round and let him feel it up.
(Santa Fe is only about 60,000 souls so it's good practice to stay friends with like-minded folks; there aren't many of us around.)
We swapped rides and I spent 1/2 hr or so on the GS, while he loped around on the Tiger. I wanted to ride it again now that I've spent a bit of time with el tigre. My impressions:
The GS is skinnier than the Tiger and feels--probably is?--longer. They feel about the same weight-wise, though I don't know if the GS was topped off (the Tiger was). I believe the bikes do weigh about the same; the thing is they feel like they weigh the same too. (Center of gravity--not so different-feeling).The BMW shifts more smoothly; the transmission has a cleaner feel, especially in the lower gears. What Bike? was right when they wrote of the Tiger, "The gearbox clonks into first..." The BMW pulls smoothly throughout its range. The riding positions are very similar.
But el tigre has more ooomph--both on paper and on the street. How the BMW takes an engine substantially larger than the 955i and yet produces substantially less horsepower is not clear to me, but you can really feel the difference. Ed (the BMW motorcycles manager) reported the Tiger felt very powerful to him and he saw no problems with the shifting whatsoever. The saddle was a bit taller than the GS, though it's on its lowest setting.
Ed asked, twice, about the list price. $10,500, plus taxes and what not, and I think he was quite impressed. Now, the BMW comes with factory ABS and a centerstand...but no luggage, and heated grips are an option, just as with the Tiger.
Given the large extra $$$ it would take to get on the BMW I remain more than content with my choice. The 1200 is beyond any doubt an impressively engineered machine and I would ride one with confidence anywhere I plan to take el tigre (except for those frickin' turn signals!). But from a two-time test rider's perspective--and I was payin attention both times!--the Tiger is where it's at for value and power.
FWIW, he still has his 1200GS after over a month despite a reported strong November (he sold 7 bikes, which at this time of year, up here, is dam' good). However, PJ's Triupmh down in Albuquerque has a Tiger waiting list...
Just my $0.02 (and maybe not worth even that...!)
-----------------
Someday you'll meet your rockin chair
Coz that's where we're spinnin
There's no use to wanna comb your hair
When it's gray and thinning.
--The Clash, Bankrobber
QuoteGiven the large extra $$$ it would take to get on the BMW I remain more than content with my choice.
Copy that. There is always something better, but at what cost? Did you bother to ask the BMW manager about the SERVICE COST on the BMW over it's life?
Glad you posted this ridin'...
Lots of folks have wondered how the Tiger squares up against the GS12, me included.
IMHO there ain't no bike that's £2500 better than a Tiger955i. So there!!
riding gaijin, thanks so much for sharing this experience. I specially appreciate the 'un-bias' oppinion.
Having own both brands wich I currently have, I can speak first hand. There is no doubt that the Tiger is a better vaule. I love it for the very same reasons that you mentioned and most everybody can agree here in this forum; after all, everyone is likely to be 'biased' to the Triumph of course because this IS a Triumph Forum.
I'm going to be quite honest thought and I hope my honest oppinion do not offend anyone. I do love my Tiger, I agree is a better 'value' with great power band, but lets face it is NOT a BMW!!. BMW surpases where it matters most, Design (From an Engineering stand point; of course I would not be talking if I wasn't an Engineer my self), Durability and more importantly, Resale Value (at least here in the States)!!
Also as important, since somebody opened 'that can of worms' it in this very same post, Operating cost. Take it from me (again I own both brands) the BMW is MUCH cheaper to service at the dealers, parts are cheaper and MUCH more readily available, and I'm not even going to get into the aftermarket parts AND accessories for these bikes... Anything you want, everywhere you look...
Confort?? Well, Let's just say I have 13,557 miles on my 2002 Tiger and 24,201 miles on my 2004 BMW; Now that's a real test...!!!
Don't believe me?? brouse in and visit www.bmwsporttouring.com (http://www.bmwsporttouring.com) and check the kind of mileage some of these bikes have...
Just thougth I share my "unbiased" 3 cents...
cheers!!
QuoteAlso as important, since somebody opened 'that can of worms' it in this very same post, Operating cost. Take it from me (again I own both brands) the BMW is MUCH cheaper to service at the dealers, parts are cheaper and MUCH more readily available,
Yep, a can of worms it is! Riddle me this, how much does one of the blown-out ass-end wheel bearings cost on any BMW? Make sure to include towing, parts, labor, and taxes.
From memory, last time my bevel box bearings went, they cost about £ 70.00 for the set, and were an easy fix - No towing needed, you notice a bit of oil leaking and feel a bit of slop in the back wheel, then you get home, strip the wheel off and get it fixed. Fitting isn't exactly rocket science (No harder than fitting a chain and sprocket set to a Tiger).
The Tiger is a great bike for the money, but if they were both the same price I don't think it'd sell as well as it does against the GS. The fact that both sell well, means that value wise there is quite a good balance. There seem to be a few BMW and Tiger owners on this board. I have a R1100RT and the 955i Tiger. Yes, I believe the Tiger is a better road bike for the price than the old R1150GS, which is why I bought one. If my needs had been different, or the 1200GS was available when I bought then I may have gone the other way. As stated above, the BMW is simple to work on, better engineered and seems to have a better dealer network.
Why do we need to argue the toss? They are both good bikes, just stop trying to justify your choice by going back to price.
All the best,
Shadow.
I feel we are all out there sharing the same wind so what one person rides or believes in is his personal 02.¢. Just like wives,some you would want to play with and ride and others you wouldn't want laying in your garage! :)
I think my Tiger is a great bike,it does what I want it to do and that's what makes me happy.
Have a great holiday and better new year.
The guy I met who'd been waiting all morning for his GS12 to be sorted at a dealers wasn't a very happy bunny. I called in at Bluebell, in Cheshire a few weeks ago to check out the clothing in a "sale". Bumped into this guy who was setting off for Europe the following day, but he was worried about an intermittent electrical fault. Engine would cut for no reason, all the lights on the dash flashing...the dealers told him they'd plug it into the computer and fix it, no problem. He'd brought the bike in at 8.30 am and they'd taken it straight through to the workshop. When I left him at about mid day, they'd just told him they'd tried everything, and couldn't cure the problem. In fact they'd f----d it up for good 'cos they couldn't even get the bugger started now! The bike hadn't even done 1,000 miles.
They'd offered him a courtesy F650 for his trip.
His last comment to me was; "I wish I'd bought a Tiger now..."
Did I mention he'd travelled about 80 miles to the dealers?
BMW of course has a much wider dealer network, and I assume the remark about having more aftermarket stuff must be true too--they've been doing this a long time.
I am expecting my service costs to be the same as or less than a BMW, though. German engineering can be a wonderful thing but it can also be absolute crap--witness the widely loathed single radio knob in the BMW's auto range.
For me it really is about the money. I had enough, thanks to the miracle of loose as baby-poo credit in this country, to get either bike. But by the time I'm done tarting up el tigre--ah, I mean, getting him outfitted--I'll STILL not have spent as much as on the stock 1200GS.
How long will the big cat last? I don't know. Especially with what I've got in store for it. But I do think a lot of factors play into machine longevity, and primary among them is owner care. (Assuming the thing is reasonably well designed to begin with.) It will be thrashed on foreign shores; but it will also be well provided for.
***That BMWs have such generally good longevity (and resale value) I believe is as much--if not more!--a function of owner care. Many BMW owners take pride in being able to afford dealer service for everything, and are also meticulous bike owners. I doubt I'm overgeneralizing when I say that many BMW bikes are not used to their full capabilities either, and that helps them keep it together.***
Inna final analysis Howlin has got it right. I'd MUCH rather share the road with a BMW rider than a BMW driver!
I'm the same as B/S I also run a Beemer one thing for sure i can tell you the serviceing cost of the Triumph are higher.
The rest of other postings are all debateable,depending on what you want to convince yourself about,you'll loose more money on a Tiger,it's nowhere near as pratical or easy to clean but a billion times more fun to ride,the choice is yours!!!!.
Chris
ok, New, there are arguments on both sides, but since BMW holds it's value better, it's a slam-dunk if you're considering both models on the used market. Tiger's rule! Ok, I'm biased!
Quote from: "tomla"ok, New, there are arguments on both sides, but since BMW holds it's value better, it's a slam-dunk if you're considering both models on the used market. Tiger's rule! Ok, I'm biased!
Agreed, personally I like the GS and believe they keep there value better than a Tiger. I also think the GS is a much better looking bike than a Tiger.
However I ride a Tiger because it was cheaper to buy and its got all the good attributes of a GS in terms of practicality and comfort and handling but its got loads more performance. Having said that I still crave even more performance so donÌt think I could live with a GS even if I could afford one.
I don't normally join in this debate as I've never owned or riden a BMW. I've never had the desire to either.
For me anyone who thinks a bike with engine cylinders sticking out horizontally, like some kind of design after-thought, is good looking, needs their head examining.
There, I said it!
Phooor thats dodgy talk that is!!!!!
Chris
Quote from: "TigerPilot"BMW surpases where it matters most, Design (From an Engineering stand point; of course I would not be talking if I wasn't an Engineer my self),
Is that why the drive shaft on my R100GS only lasted 20000 miles a piece? And the "airhead" gearboxes need a rebuild every 25~30000 miles? I did over 50000 miles on it (11500 to 63000) so I know it's a regular thing!
And for those that say "don't bring money into it", the saving of £2500 is a big part of ANY buying equation.
For me? Never again!
My $.02
I have owned three Triumphs now, Sprint ST, Trophy 1200 and now the 05 Tiger. I sold the Trophy for 03 R1150RT which was a very nice bike but, it just wasn't a good fit for me. I didn't like the boxer motor (designed in the '20's ?). It lacked power, especially below 4K rpm, and was buzzy above 4K rpm. It surged and my dealer told me it was the way I rode it. Everything else about the bike I loved. I traded the RT for a 1999 LT. Too heavy of a bike for me. If it were not for my wife, I would sell it or trade back for an RT.
When I decided I want an adventure bike I did not hesitate to go for the Tiger. I knew that I preferred the 955 engine over BMW's boxer motor. I absolutely love the looks of the Tiger. It handles great on the road and does everything I am capable on the dirt roads. Triumph luggage is way better than BMW's for capacity and looks.
The bottom line? The Triumph works for me and that is what matters most. If you're a BMW fan then that's where you should spend your money. Life is too short to settle for less than what you want.
Here's my lifetime quote, "If you don't have it, you haven't wanted it bad enough".
BMW's engine design is almost as old as Harley's.
That said, it is a good design (unlike Harley, that whole primary balance thing...).
BMW is severely lacking in their follow through on the design though. I have no problem with shaft drive, but why is it not lasting much longer than a chain? 40k on a rear drive is about the norm with a GS. This is unacceptable. With a chain I can see when it is wearing out, and if I choose to go farther, it is my own fault. With the BMW, it is good one day, toast the next. Never mind that you may be somewhere in lower elbonia.....
ABS on bikes destined for off road should be banned. Not only that, when the ABS fails, the brakes stop working. Sounds like a case for the NTSB. Did you watch the "Long Way Around"? When the camera man's bike frame failed, and had to be rewelded. They poped the ABS computer by not disconnecting it before welding (did not say that, but as an engineer and mechanic, it was totally obvious to me what happened). After the reweld, the brakes quit working. I can understand having the ABS function stop, but having the brakes fail.... Shame on BMW.
Also, if you can get a BMW mechanic at a dealer to tell you the truth, you should see the stack of TSB's and recalls the new 1200gs has on it that needs to be done before even selling it. My mechanic buddy is the Triumph and BMW mechanic at our local dealer and he also states that dealing with BMW is a pain in the rear.
I'll keep my Tiger, thank you.
I sat on a GS the other day....started it up. Promply got off. Just awful. There is no way that ride will match my Tiger.
QuoteI'll keep my Tiger, thank you.
I think BMW does a great job in marketing itself as the premier auto/moto machine in terms of performance and reliability. It is ironic that, in practice, the reverse is often the case.
Quote from: "Patrick the Scot"QuoteI'll keep my Tiger, thank you.
I think BMW does a great job in markieting itself as the premier auto/moto machine in terms of performance and reliablity. It is ironic that, in practice, the reverse is often the case.
Sadly, I think you are right. The tigers have had, what, one catastrophic recall with the fuel fittings? I know there has been a couple of TSB's and the clutch cable recall (955 tigers), but none of those are catastrophic, "I can't ride anymore" failures.
Bikes are machines, and they are going to have problems. That is a given, but BMW really baffles me, and their owners compound the baffling. They portray their bikes as the most reliable bikes on the road, yet almost all have surging problems, most have had a rear drive failure if it has any miles on it, alternator failurs, front shocks are junk, the list goes on....
(http://www.advrider.com/forums/images/smilies/lurker.gif)
Quote from: "BigDave"(http://www.advrider.com/forums/images/smilies/lurker.gif)
:-#
Quote from: "BigDave"(http://www.advrider.com/forums/images/smilies/lurker.gif)
Que este?
Nevermind me, I am just watching the show.
as you were....
Quote from: "Patrick the Scot"Quote from: "BigDave"(http://www.advrider.com/forums/images/smilies/lurker.gif)
Que este?
An explination...
Brother "BigDave" converted from a Tiger to the world of the GS. He had a very bad experience with the Tiger and his local dealer. His tiger failed, and it took an abnormally long time to get sorted out by his dealer. This left a bad taste in his mouth about the Tiger. In his defense, it would have done the same for me.
So, he is just sitting patiently, eating his popcorn and reading about us bashing his favorite bike. :lol:
Quote from: "tigerjay"ABS on bikes destined for off road should be banned.
Isn't there a switch so you can shut it off when you go off road but still have it as an amazing safety device on the street?
I thought I read that somewhere...
As a clarification, I did indeed have a bad Tiger, but Triumph and the dealer - Erico Motorsports in Denver were spot on. (you Brittish chaps like that?)
You are not bashing my favorite bike as the 1200 is not my favorite. I like my 1150 Adv (in black no less).
I have learned at least 3 things from these debates on this website:
1) as a GS owner, STAY OUT OF THEM. :lol:
2) I firmly believe the Tiger and any of the GS varieties have their own place as they are indeed different bikes with different purposes. They both have some cross-over appeal but overall, they are intended for slightly different audiences.
3) It doesnt really matter to me what anyone rides as long as they have at least as much fun as I do when I ride.
Jay, even without the problems I had with my Tiger you know I still had my eye on the Adv. That was a lusting that was going to end up in a relationship with or without problems with the "ex."
Quote from: "Mudhen"Quote from: "tigerjay"ABS on bikes destined for off road should be banned.
Isn't there a switch so you can shut it off when you go off road but still have it as an amazing safety device on the street?
I thought I read that somewhere...
yah, there is a switch. I disable ABS everytime i am off road. I love ABS on the street.
The messages everyone is posting about the GS vs the Tiger is pretty evenly balanced. For us US riders it is interesting that the UJM guies have not jumped on the "tralie" market. Lets see Honda had their Afirican Twin and Kawasaki has their KLE500 in South Afirica. For longevitiy, the core is reduced to rider maintenance and care. I own a 1996 Ducati 900 with 69,758 miles on it. The only services on it is belt replacement and valve adjustments, and three clutch assemblies. I alos own a ST4S and a new 05/ Tiger. We selected the Tiger for price valuen and I just couldn't get past the "busy" looks of the GS. The GS family has a dedicated following and the drive out price, you have to be dedicated. We plan on taking the Tiger to the 05 RAT rally in Hot Springs, and running it up the Dempster Highway to Tuktoyaktuk Yukon. Does anyone have experience with outfitting the Tiger for "B roads?
Quote from: "fitele"Does anyone have experience with outfitting the Tiger for "B roads?
You mean B roads like this?
(http://sasquatch.smugmug.com/photos/6618180-M.jpg)
Or this?
(http://sasquatch.smugmug.com/photos/9629328-M.jpg)
Is this a C or even a D road?
(http://sasquatch.smugmug.com/photos/9629332-M.jpg)
Nice pavement, no?
(http://sasquatch.smugmug.com/photos/3004939-M.jpg)
Nope, no idea at all how to kit bikes for anything other than a super highway.... :twisted:
(http://sasquatch.smugmug.com/photos/3004966-M.jpg)
Great photos of a Tiger at work: In Texas, we would pave this baby, install sweepers and a BIG MAC> Great to see the world still has great places to use the Tiger. For road classifications, the would fall into the "C" catagory with "D" reserved for trails.
Good god, this thread won't die. 800 views? Have you all nothing better to do? Fer chrisskae I'm stuck in lower Connecticut with two kids and no bike, but please, get out and ride! I'm in withdrawal and need some reports! Looks like I better shelve that Tiger --> Honda Civic comparo I was goinna do...
It's still true--I bet most of us would rather ride with a BMW rider than alongside a BMW driver.
I ride every day- rain or shine: I ride to work and I work to ride; 80 miles
96 Ducati 900SS 69.758 miles
96 Suzuki DR 650 10,758 miles
2003 Ducati ST4S 11,234 miles
2003 Ducati 749S 4,200 miles
2005 triumph Tiger 1, 202 miles
1992 Aerostar: 212,000 miles......
Ride smooth. Ride safe.
Hi fitele,
By the look of your extensive stable you really take this motorbiking seriously.
Nice selection of machines which all look well ridden from the mileages.
Welcome to our little internet gang :D
Fantastic pics, proof enough that the Tiger can do anything a GS can do but faster. :twisted: :P
I only wish there was landscapes like that to play with in the UK.
:(
Quote from: "fitele"Great photos of a Tiger at work: In Texas, we would pave this baby, install sweepers and a BIG MAC> Great to see the world still has great places to use the Tiger. For road classifications, the would fall into the "C" catagory with "D" reserved for trails.
The first photo is in Ouray, CO., the next 2 are in Idaho, the last two are in Moab.
Yes, there are still lots of areas in the US to ride.
ha ha ha love this debate err i mean constructive communication :lol:
I Like the GS and Tiger in equal amounts but went with the Tiger for 3 reasons :
1, Price (including fitted extras).
2, The main dealer is only 8 miles away instead of 30 for BMW.
3, Its British and so am I what what :lol:
As far as build quality arguments go, all I can say is its doing well so far on winter treated roads.
Time will tell as for engineering quality.