I ask because i've been having a fundamental problem with my riding technique for a long time.
I crashed my Yamaha FJ1200 back in june on some gravel and had to get airlifted. It was not a fun ordeal, to say the least. unlike the FJ, i am unable to lean to the inside of my Tiger. Not quite hanging off, but at least leaning to the inside.
i find that no matter what i do, i pull on the inside bar of the tiger. I find it more comfortable to ride a little crossed up to get round a curve or turn.
What am i doing wrong? how do you guys ride your tigers?
I never lean off either my Pan or my Tiger - I countersteer both - dunno if it's right or wrong but I haven't had a spill in 30 years. Quite a few before that though! My advice FWIW - get some training 8)
I countersteer as well,basically because thats the way I've always done it.I know a bloke who leans his Steamer at quite extreme angles,it works for him.Horses for courses I suppose.
i enter the turn with a countersteer. but it feels like the bike won't get through the turn unless i pull on the inside bar, essentially steering into the turn. which is fundamentally incorrect.
I think you might be.a bit tense and ending up pulling on the opposite bar. Relax your grip as much as you can and gently push on the inside bar until she settles into the turn then stop pushing or pulling and keep your head up with your chin lined up on your inside mirror and the corner exit.
My technique is to stand up on the pegs & apply a little more throttle while putting a bit more weight on the inside peg (direction I'm turning). This drops the centre of gravity from your bum to your feet. The small addition of throttle helps to settle the front tire, as the traction deficiency is transferred to the rear which is more controllable. The standing also allows faster reactions for corrections with minimal input by just straightening the inside leg a bit.
Watch any kid on a dirt bike ... same technique.
Tires a huge part too. The usual options are passable if taking care. Pressure is critical, check it often. I drop mine about 5 ~ 10 psi & carry a compressor to re-inflate when back on pavement. I use Conti TKC80's on a second set of wheels if going off pavement for more than a few hours.
You might lighten up on your handlebar grip, not trying to strangle it. Don't over ride your comfort level, it will come in time, then feel quite relaxed.
It's anyone's guess how to get through a turn with the stock suspension. Fix that and then you have something to work from.
Two things I would suggest. First go over to Advrider and read through all the threads on counterstreering and riding technique in the Perfect Line forum. There is enough there to keep you busy reading for a week.
Second, if possible, how about having a buddy follow you on a ride through the sorts of roads you are concerned about and video you. Then post it both here and on Advrider and ask for input. You'll get lots!
Lastly, I have to disagree with Fishnbiker. Weighting the pegs does give you more control to move you body around and leverage and stuff but it does not move the CG. The only way to lower the center of mass would be to crouch down on the bike and literally lower your body mass. The bike's center of mass does not change. In fact standing up raises your center of mass.
As already said, check your suspension settings and static sag. What I'm going to say next is purely my own experience and may or may not be technically correct. Firstly I have until recently only ever ridden trail bikes and big dualsports that had a big front wheel compared to the back. Recently I also started riding a gixxer. Well I struggled enormously at first and bloody nearly pranged on every sharp corner because the steering geometry, front wheel size etc were different. It was so bad I thought there must be faulty head bearings, tyres etc. I cannot over emphasize how bad the problem was for me.
I persevered and got used to it, then got back on to the Tiger.
Now the Tiger felt bloody awful :shock:
Now that I had to think about riding rather than subconsiouly doing it I noticed the following traits about the Tiger
It's big wheel in front understeers quite badly by comparison
It's high CG means you brake earlier into the corners and accelerate longer through them
This bike struggles to hold a long constant radius - you have to manage the steer by pushing on the inside bar or the turn tightens
The counter steer to drop the bike into the corner is quite pronounced.
Short sharp corners I find I lay the bike right over but dont ride with it. i.e. I find myself still pretty much upright (the bike is surprisingly nimble ridden like this)
For what it's worth (which is nothing practically) I find I hardly lean the steamer over at all. It just seems to go where I look. Do you do have to really 'look', if you know what I mean.
What I reckon (which is worth nothing at all normally) you've had a nasty crash and probably somewhere in your mind aren't quite the same guy as before.
Some training from a really good teacher, who is cogent of what has happened, might just be the ticket. 8)
As others have said, ditch the stock springs and maybe do as nickcalne said. It could be something simple as a mental block. The other thing, what tyres are you running on?
When I had my cruiser, switching from the cruiser to the Tiger was odd. It would take a few miles before I was comfortable with leaning from the extra height the Tiger has to offer. With the Anakee 2's, when the tyres are warmed up (and on a good day) I am nearly scraping the pedals on the floor - If I don't move my feet back they get squashed between the road and the bike!
thanks for the help everyone!
i do have a mental block. i cant ride like i used to. every time i lean over i am afraid of washing out the way i did over gravel. i broke my shoulder blade, a few ribs, bruised my lungs. it wasn't pretty. but i'm fine now, except for the riding. it's been really tough to get past it.
however, i have noticed that i really wasnt riding correctly from the start and i want to correct that.
i have TKC-80s right now. but just put on shinko E705's last night so we'll see how those feel.
it is a big bike and i'm used to more sport bike ergonomics.
QuoteLastly, I have to disagree with Fishnbiker. Weighting the pegs does give you more control to move you body around and leverage and stuff but it does not move the CG. The only way to lower the center of mass would be to crouch down on the bike and literally lower your body mass. The bike's center of mass does not change. In fact standing up raises your center of mass.
Go out & test this before going any further. Same section of gravel, same speed, etc. My language may not be as correct as you might like, but the effect (more control) is definitely there.
Again, watch any kid or motocrosser on a dirt bike (except when extending their foot flattracker style). They almost never use the seats.
A lesson learned by me over many thousands of gravel miles going back to my first dirt bike in 1969.
Quote from: "fishnbiker"Go out & test this before going any further. Same section of gravel, same speed, etc. My language may not be as correct as you might like, but the effect (more control) is definitely there.
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Uhm. I did agree it gives you more control. Its easier to shift your weight back and forth with your weight on the pegs. In fact you can steer the bike at lower speeds entirely by doing this.
The 'center of mass' is something completely different from what you are talking about; sorry but not even close.
So lets agree to disagree on the terminology & get back to the question. The idea of someone videoing his riding style may have some merit. Lets give him the weekend to test these theories out.
I' ve never tried this but worth mentioning.
I had a bit of a block about U turns and a friend who is a ROSPA instructor mentioned a technique he used in the past with persistent cases was to take them out as pillions and progressively increase the intensity of the manouver while talking them through it.
Might be worth considering.
so i rode my FJ all week to work. put the Shinko's on the Tiger and rode it to work this morning.
yup, i still suck :cry:
i was able to be easy on the bars and countersteer mid corner on the FJ.
But on the Tiger i just cant do it. I can start the turn with a countersteer, but after that it's all pulling on the inside bar. very frustrating.
maybe i can get a buddy of mine to film me and post it up.
Quote from: "CoolHandLuke"The other thing, what tyres are you running on? ... With the Anakee 2's, when the tyres are warmed up (and on a good day) I am nearly scraping the pedals on the floor - If I don't move my feet back they get squashed between the road and the bike!
When I first got my steamer, it had 7-year-old Dunlop Trailmaxes on them. They were the consistency of wheel-chock rubber and made the headstock actually wander in tighter turns. Both wheels would lock up when braking only moderately hard. After switching to the Anakee 2's all that went away. I can lean the bike so well and with such confidence, I feel my whole rig runs better than an almost new 2009 Tiger that I rented in California a couple of years ago. Part of this experience was the Sasquatch upgrade of the rear end, but a lot was the Anakee 2's. (The Sasquatch rear suspension upgrade cleaned up the up-and-down experience in ruts bumps and loose stuff mostly.)
Quote from: "CoolHandLuke"When I had my cruiser, switching from the cruiser to the Tiger was odd. It would take a few miles before I was comfortable with leaning from the extra height the Tiger has to offer.
Switching between the Steamer and a 2003 Buell Lightning a lot these days I notice the chassis rigidity of the Lightning is so high, the fork rake so aggressive, and the suspension so well tuned, the bike feels like it's connected directly to my neural ganglia when turning. The Tiger by comparison feels like I'm paddling a canoe. Things I want it to do seem to start happening "downstream" a few moments later.
When starting a turn on the Steamer, too, I notice the bike's frame seems like its made of pipe-cleaner. It's sort of seems to "fold" a little, falling over the centerline abruptly. I think this is a combination of its height, the plusher suspension and maybe not really the frame actually bending, but who knows.
This might sound a bit daft at first but you might want to try varying your tyre pessures!
I noticed you had just changed to Shinkos.
I know that what works on the Stripples 2CTs is way too high for say Metzlers or Anakees. Just a few psi low on the Stripple and it's noticably harder work to avoid mid corner corrections and a few psi high and the Tiger is a bit flighty at speed and I really have to move around to make quick lane changes.
are any members local could take the bike round the block and check if theres a problem with the bike?
mine had stock suspension (probably slightly knackered) and tourances and always found it held a line fine after an initial nudge on the bars to turn it in..
Quote from: "fishnbiker"So lets agree to disagree on the terminology & get back to the question. The idea of someone videoing his riding style may have some merit. Lets give him the weekend to test these theories out.
Its not terminology its physics the man is right standing lowering the c of g is myth, standing off road does work though nothing wrong with that as a technique.
Changed the fork springs on mine transformed it, back is still stock and 14 years old squirms a bit if you gas it out of bend but the front feels secure. I am no scratcher though. :roll: