Stock 2000 Tiger w/ 7,600 miles. And I'm sorry in advance for such a long post. :)
I recently took the tank off to do a number of things so I'm having difficulty sorting this out.
I replaced the plastic fuel connectors with the Team Triumph kit. When I did this, I snapped one of the old connectors off in the fuel plate. I couldn't get it cleaned up very well, so I found a cheap, complete tank on Ebay from a 2003 Tiger. I swapped out the fuel plate only. Bike Bandit showed matching part numbers and everything fit fine. While I was at it I swapped out the fuel level sensor since mine kept getting stuck. I have no fuel leaks.
I removed the airbox and found that one of the air intake trumpets had gotten pinched at some point, and wasn't sealing right around the throttle body. I have a new one on order, so I haven't replaced it yet. It was running fine before even with the trumpet being pinched.
The barometric pressure sensor is there, but the corrugated tube that connects it to the elbow on the airbox is broken. Again it was running fine with this broken.
The three corrugated tubes that run from the throttle bodies to the EVAP were all broken and not connected to the EVAP. It's a non-California bike. I'm pretty certain I didn't do this, so I assume it was running fine with it like this.
I also flushed and refilled the coolant.
I also replaced the clutch adjuster screw at the lever because mine was snapped.
So, here's the issue. I hooked everything back up and started the bike. It ran up to 4,000 rpm, then after a few moments kind of settled around 3,500 rpm. If I turned the throttle, the rpms would decrease. Almost like it was running backward. It would completely cut out at about 1/4 throttle. I shut the bike off, and though maybe I connected the fuel lines wrong, or something, and switched them around, and still had the same problem.
So first, and most important question. What did I do wrong to screw up how it's running?
Second question. How important is having the barometric pressure sensor connected to the airbox? Should I order a new one or just tape it back together?
Third question. Should I order new tubes to reconnect the throttle bodies to to EVAP?
Fourth question. Which way are the fuel fittings supposed to go? If I'm sitting on the bike, the line that some out of the right side of the fuel rail should go on the top or the bottom?
Hey mhaserodt !! looks like yer havin a bit of bovver :? just looked at the Tri/manual for 2001 and it shows the fuel pipes like this, from the tank plate the lower is the outlet and goes to the right side of the fuel rail, from the left of the rail is the return to the tank and that goes to the top connector. left and right is sittin on bike !!
pics of throttle bodies here ( but for an 06 model )......
http://www.tigertriple.com/forum/viewto ... tle+bodies (http://tigertriple.com/forum/index.php/topic,9778&highlight=throttle+bodies)
KK
ps you should get a cable and plug into yer laptop an see wat error codes are there !!
The fuel line work either way round, that's not your problem.
The corrugated pipes to the evap is where I would start, they all need to be sealed and connected other wise the stepper motor for the idle air mixture will be completely screwy.
Just looked again, you say it's not a cali bike so there should be no evap on it, what are the pipes connected to then? Is it a little black and white plastic part that sits in the airbox when it's on? If so that is your stepper motor for the idle air control. The pipes to that need to be sealed and also the seal between that and the airbox should be good too. Start there
Yep +1 for what John says, the corrugated pipes, It aint gonna run without them sealed to the stepper.
Another +1. Effectively those pipes are bypassing the throttle butterflies giving the high idle. When you open the throttle the mixture will be too weak hence the dying.
And when you've done all that do the 12 minute tune to reset your trims or you'll still be running on trims that are way out for your newly-fixed idle system
Quote from: "John Stenhouse"Just looked again, you say it's not a cali bike so there should be no evap on it, what are the pipes connected to then? Is it a little black and white plastic part that sits in the airbox when it's on? If so that is your stepper motor for the idle air control. The pipes to that need to be sealed and also the seal between that and the airbox should be good too. Start there
Yup, that'd be it. It's the stepper motor, not the EVAP. I was looking at the diagrams wrong, I guess.
I must have cracked and knocked them off putting the airbox back on. Though I think it was just a matter of time before they were toast, since they were so brittle anyhow. I will get those replaced, and hopefully get it running right again. I'll make sure to report back.
Thanks for all the help!
I finally got the parts in, and replaced the vacuum hoses. It seems to have taken care of the original problem.
Now it idles too low, and will die if I hold the throttle open. It was doing this before, where it would sometimes die as I was coming to a stop, but it's worse now. From a little searching here it looks like it could be an issue with the stepper, or possibly the barometric pressure sensor. I didn't have a chance to actually ride it, or give it a proper 12 min tune, so that's the next thing to try. I've also got a cable on order to peek at the ECU.
It's probably tried to adjust the fuel trim based on the situation with the leaky pipes. With a bit of luck the 12 min tune will help.
If it won't run to do the 12 min tune, you can reset things manually once your cable arrives.
Got busy, and forgot all about this post. Oops :oops:
I've got the cable now, but I haven't had the time to mess with it lately.
Anyhow, the 12min tune seems to indicate that I shouldn't touch anything while it runs. Because it won't stay running, is it going to have much negative effect if I hold the throttle open just enough to keep it in normal idle range?
In your situation it would be best to set up TuneEcu and reset the tps that way.May be an idea to read your installed map BEFORE altering anything, just in case.
Do the reset on the Speed Control aswell.
Quote from: "metalguru"In your situation it would be best to set up TuneEcu and reset the tps that way..
I tried to do the 12 min tune over the weekend, and it didn't change anything. The previous owner told me it has the TOR tune even though it has the stock pipe. In talking to him while I was buying it, it sounds like his local dealer may have tweaked it a little too, so I'm not sure what tune it really has.
I wonder if it dove have a custom tune, if the change in environment could have anything to do with it. The bike was originally sold and spent its first 11 years in Southern Florida. I bought it and brought it to Central Ohio. The issues didn't show up until it started getting colder up here. It's probably just coincidence though.
So, I'm going to do just what you described. I plan to save the tune it has, then upload the stock tune to see how it runs.
Have a look here:
http://tigertriple.com/forum/viewtopic. ... 0363#80363 (http://tigertriple.com/forum/index.php/msg,80363#80363)
It might help.... :wink:
That does help. So I'm suspecting the barometric pressure sensor might be part of the problem. Long story short I know the the tube just below the elbow for the barometric pressure sensor was cracked when I bought it, I just didn't know what it was at that time.
That aside, I was able to spend some time with TuneECU. The tune that was in there exactly matched the 126 tune. There was no change when I downloaded the 126 tune to the ECU, and no real change when I tried 124.
I looked at it a little last night, but didn't actually change the tunes, or start the bike. I was getting 3 errors then
P0230 Fuel Pump relay default
P0463 Fuel level sensor circuit high input
P1231 Fuel pump relay open circuit or short to ground
The fuel level sensor I expected. I swapped out fuel senders and the one I have in there is from an '03, so I don't think it actually works in my '00. To look at it, it's a different design. I cleared the codes when I was done.
Today I swapped tunes, started the bike, etc. and was getting
P0113 Inlet air temperature sensor open circuit or short circuit to battery
P0122 Throttle Position sensor low voltage
in addition to the three above. I cleared codes, then tried the 124 tune. After that I only got P0463 and P0122. The other codes never came back, even when I switched back to the 126 tune, and ran the bike several times.
So it could be a TPS issue, but I don't understand why it only showed up after I changed tunes. It seems like if it was bad, it would have thrown a code before last night, and I would have picked it up the first time. Unless it just happened to have a problem sometime between last night and today.
The codes are a result of powering the ECU with stuff disconnected.The only reliable way of reading codes is to read before you strip anything down. Also clear after re assembly then run her. Then check again.
Check the throttle percentage is changing when you open and close the throttle using TuneECU, then reset the TPS. TPS won't show 100% on full throttle, this is nornal, don't worry about it. If that doesn't work, check the TPS plug for crap connections. If you do decide to change the TPS the throttle bodies have to come off. I did a how-to on this. Be aware that air leaks between the TBs and the head are not uncommon so taking them off and replacing the gasket might help too.
I didn't see where to reset the TPS, but I'll check it again. There's a lot of info in there, so I probably just missed it.
Interesting that you mention the TB gasket. A new one was included with the bike. The previous owner said the dealer sold it to him as a way to stop a slight backfire that would occasionally happen. I never had any backfire, so I never bothered with it. It sounds like it might be a good idea to replace it since I have the gasket handy anyhow.
It's straight forward as I said, I wrote a 'how to' when I did mine. Take care with the torx screws holding the manifold in place, they're made of cheese :lol:
Found it, http://tigertriple.com/forum/index.php/msg,44959 (http://tigertriple.com/forum/index.php/msg,44959)
I just wanted to post an update, even though I haven't done much. I checked the TPS and it constantly showed 0% even after resetting it. The connection looked clean. So right now I'm waiting on a new TPS to come in.
In the meantime I've removed the throttle body assembly to get ready for the new TPS and the gasket was in terrible shape. It was very brittle and I could see that there were several spots were it was definitely leaking air. So I've cleaned all that up and put the new gasket on.
I could have sworn I had seen a post on here somewhere about re-adjusting the throttle cable when messing with the throttle bodies, but I can't seem to find it. I assume I shouldn't have to mess with that since I haven't actually removed the throttle cable, right? I've just pulled the throttle bodies back far enough to replace the gasket.
Cable should be fine, stop worrying. The poor state of the gasket is good news from the fix point of view. Just be sure to put the IACV hoses back with no leaks when you reassemble.
And if you have TuneECU don't be tempted to cycle the IACV to check it works ok while you have it off the bike. You'll end up with bits all over the garage and £67 for a new one.
I think it's fixed. I got it back together this afternoon and it steadily idled about 1100 rpm for ~5 minutes. I haven't taken it for a ride yet, but at least it stays idling.
In the end I cleaned the inside of the throttle bodies (they were coated in some crusty brownish-white flaky gunk), replaced the TB gasket, replaced the TPS, and replaced the vacuum lines running from the TB to the stepper motor.
Thanks everyone for all of your help. I really appreciate it. 8)
Quote from: "mhaserodt"I think it's fixed. I got it back together this afternoon and it steadily idled about 1100 rpm for ~5 minutes. I haven't taken it for a ride yet, but at least it stays idling.
In the end I cleaned the inside of the throttle bodies (they were coated in some crusty brownish-white flaky gunk), replaced the TB gasket, replaced the TPS, and replaced the vacuum lines running from the TB to the stepper motor.
Thanks everyone for all of your help. I really appreciate it. 8)
I like a good outcome. Hopefully now you can enjoy a great bike.
I do wonder, after reading through this, how all your plastic/rubber bits got so brittle.
I guess the flakey brown stuff in the TBs is a clue. Whatever the PO was putting through it probably rotted the tubes too. I've been looking around for possible causes but can't find anything so far. Being in the trade, maybe Metalguru will have an idea
If there is a chemist out there with a masters they could give the breakdown of what it is. Generally its what is known as heavy ends. (evaporated fuel).
It is usually generated by petrol vapour being reflected off the top of the inlet valve. The deposit can get heavy to the point of causing malfunction usually on cars when the breather is routed close by and oil coats the surfaces, along with carbon from misfires/blowby/leaky valves, etc.
In this instance the coating on the surfaces was increased by wrong mixture caused by the IACV pipes leaking, increasing the reflected charge.
Don't worry a light deposit in 20k is quite normal, just clean when servicing the air filter and balancing the TBs.
The rotted tubes are just down to sub-standard plastic supplied originally. Some one probably left out an ingredient in the original extrusion mix.
I'm really not sure what the previous owner did to the bike. I assumed that the brittle bits had to do with the fact that it was rarely ridden and spent its first 11 years in the salty air and sun of Florida. I believe that all of the U.S. requires a 10% mix of Ethanol in our fuels. From what I've heard this can cause issues with fuel lines and such. It's all anecdotal though. I've personally never had a problem with it in other cars/bikes.
As far as I can tell I'm the 3rd owner. The previous owner had the bike for about 2 years (if I recall correctly). He kept it stored under a cover in an open carport. He sold it because he bought another bike and didn't need 2 of them. I don't know how the original owner kept the bike. My understanding was he bought it mostly as a toy, and really never rode it.
Currently the bike only has 7600 miles on it. I had expected a little gunk in the TBs but it did seem a little excessive...I should have taken some pics. Looking down into the valves showed a little bit of what appeared to be carbon deposits, but they looked pretty clean. I suppose it's possible that the odometer was replaced or something at some point, but the title history doesn't suggest any kind of problems.
With all that being said, I'm sort of back to square 1. Like I said it was running the other day. After that I replaced all the trim, bolted the fuel tank back on and whatnot. This evening I tried to take it for a ride, and it would wouldn't start. It cranks but never catches, acting like it's not getting fuel. So I'll check it out with my laptop tomorrow and see if I've knocked something loose, or pinched something while putting the trim back on.
Went out this evening with laptop in hand, ready to check everything out. I decided to try to start it again before hooking up the laptop and removing side covers, and it started right up. I'm convinced this bike hates me.
Since I was already there I checked everything out on TuneECU and everything looks fine.
Took mine for MOT last week, tester couldn't get it started only 5mins after I parked. it cranked but wouln't fire. I went out, fired first time. Never done that before but I guess its time to do some checking. I do know my side stand switch is starting to play up though... :roll:
So far I haven't had any more problems with it starting. I ended up replacing the IAC stepper motor because it was still dying when I came to a stop. That was the original issue that got me tearing into the bike and apparantly messing everything else up. :lol: That seems to have corrected that issue, and I've had no other problems after putting about 200 miles on it this past week.
In all I feel better a lot better about the bike. I've replaced all those parts, cleaned things up, flushed the coolant, changed the oil, air filter, and fuel filter, and switched over to the metal fuel fittings...so it should be about like new. Now I know when some of the maintenance was last done at least.