There was a drop of oil on the garage floor. Shock horror.
I replaced all the crank and clutch cover cap head bolts with ss ones when rebuilding YAPI a couple years back. New gaskets too etc. Tonight I discovered every single one of them (that's like 20 plus plenty) was loose except the odd sized length bolts which I had to keep the originals in play. Were it not for that fact I'd say the gaskets had bedded in and the bolts just needed to be retorqued.
Any OCD or AR engineers out there that could explain this? It's a piece of info that would come in handy in the one upmanship, tyre kicking, baccy spitting contests held every weekend in the biker friendly pubs I roll past come weekends.
Did you use copperslip when you installed them? If so the dry torque figure is not enough. but I've never found a formula for the required increase, just proved it in the lab. :roll:
Yes I did. The rebuild showed terrible corrosion patterns. Hence the copper slip more than anything else. Interesting.... thanks for that.
Question: why didn't copperslip affect the standard bolts then. Just the ss ones. And not just some of them, every single one?
Did you use a calibrated torque wrench? :wink:
For capheads? They are 12 Nm. That's finger tight and a quick nip and still wouldn't explain why only SS were affected. But full marks for being OCD and AR.
Really just hypothesising because I can't inspect the bolts but stainless cuts smoother than mild steel - it's a joy to machine it, so maybe there's more grip on the standard bolts. Also, I'm not familiar with how the bolts are made but based on my aircraft experience, the mild steel threads are likely to have been cut while the stainless are likely to have been rolled; again making them smoother.
The lab tests were on 1'' high tensile bolts with rolled threads from a T93 Radar. Still got one in the shed somewhere, along with 1'' rollers from a T91 main bearing and 3'' ball bearing from a T84.
The oem bolts are flanged head hex bolts
(http://www.nutsandbolts.com/bmz_cache/c/cf117f3e512cd43ecc0cb2b2a7534b7d.image.100x100.jpg)
which have far superior holding power to covers and such
QuoteFlange Bolts
Flange bolts are identifiable by the ridge or skirt surrounding the bolt head. This skirt
acts as a means of distributing the clamping load of the bolt across the fastening
surface. A flange bolt is designed to provide the same holding power as a washer.
What do I win ?
Win? Respect of your peers. But I'm not in a position to confirm if you or Bob is correct, or anyone else for that matter. However, as the practice of changing to SS cap heads and copper slip is common, it might well be worth routinely checking to see they haven't come loose. My LHS crank cover was one trip away from falling off and it was not obvious to a casual visual inspection because it was still adhering to the gasket, as were the bolts. Almost no threaded bite left at all. The clutch cover was only marginally better. Never seen this before in 25 years of biking.
hmmmmmmmmmm. n theres my bike with every nut n bolt in stainless. cant say ive ever had a problem but i feel like goin into the garage with me torque wrench :lol:
Guessing wildly but could the metal have slightly different thermal expansion properties leading to very slow but progressive loosening.
...I'll er... go now. :oops:
That is not without some merit I'd suppose. Afterall the torque of a bolt is there to define its torsion isn't it?. And different alloys will stretch differently. Kind of reminds me of my sea days. Some of the engine mounting nuts were larger than me. To tighten them we would hydraulicly stretch the bolt and then wind the nut on. Release hydraulic tension and the bolt contracted pulling the nut tight. Thermal expansion could ultimately do the same thing. Though it must be said, the crank covers never get particularly hot.
Honest, I just don't know.
Bruken, i`ve always used ss bolts and screws, never had a problem with them coming loose, but then i`ve never copperslipped them, as i was under the impression stainless wouldn`t rot or rust, so threads would always be clean and always undo without a problem?
Actually ss can rust a bugger in anaerobic conditions, ask any yachtsman with a ss mast. Also ss bolts don't stop corrosion, they just themselves are more resistant, the magnesium alloy still will experience galvanic corrosion and possibly more so than with steel bolts so the copperslip is more for their benefit.
http://www.mcnallyinstitute.com/04-html/4-1.html (http://www.mcnallyinstitute.com/04-html/4-1.html)
However, I've never experienced ALL the bolts coming loose either. That's why I'm curious. It's not as though I don't have some experience in spanner twirling. I'm leaning towards Mustangs supposition. As Bob said, the bolts are rolled, the head is not perfectly flat as if milled, but slightly curved as if stamped. Looks beautiful, but probably lost some grip. I'll try some washers.... urrggg.... it looks so nice without lol.
loctite blue ......done
That's an even better idea. The copperslip is going to be a sod to remove now tho..... the irony ... LOL
I'll second the blue loctite suggestion. Put enough in there and the galvanic corrosion might not be too much of a problem.
PS. I know what OCD is. What is AR? :P
Quote from: "JetdocX"PS. I know what OCD is. What is AR? :P
Anal
Retentive
You just can't slip one past Mustang :lol: :lol:
Quote from: "BruKen"That is not without some merit I'd suppose. Afterall the torque of a bolt is there to define its torsion isn't it?. And different alloys will stretch differently. Kind of reminds me of my sea days. Some of the engine mounting nuts were larger than me. To tighten them we would hydraulicly stretch the bolt and then wind the nut on. Release hydraulic tension and the bolt contracted pulling the nut tight. Thermal expansion could ultimately do the same thing. Though it must be said, the crank covers never get particularly hot.
Honest, I just don't know.
Torque settings do much the same. When calculating the torque setting for a bolt the engineer is working out how much it can be stretched before it's elastic limit is reached less a safety factor thus using tension (the stretching of the bolt) to hold whatever it's fixing in place.
Quote from: "Mustang"The oem bolts are flanged head hex bolts
(http://www.nutsandbolts.com/bmz_cache/c/cf117f3e512cd43ecc0cb2b2a7534b7d.image.100x100.jpg)
which have far superior holding power to covers and such
I can't see from the photo but I'm guessing the flanges have serrations on the underside thus acting as a mechanical fixing ie lockwasher?
some do some don't , can't remember if the tigger ones do or not , but they certainly stay tight on all the covers .
Do they do them in SS so I can do an empirical test though?
:lol:
Not to worry, I am going to try spring washers. The standard fit washer doesn't fit all the recesses aesthetically.
Maybe it's TMI, but everything in my anus is moving through at a high rate of speed in the out direction. :lol:
RETENTIVE, NO.
Nothing personal. :lol: On last year's tiger camp and ride out it was quite an education on the demographic of tiger ownership. When I go to Beemer camp outs the demographic is IT, marketing, sales etc. The personality follows suit. With tigers, the demographic was engineers, architects and the like.
I'm a science major myself. But from way back since Uni days, there has always been a joshing rivalry between the two faculties. Engineers, like to work with hard sciences like mathematics, where as the pure sciences are mostly theoretical. In this question above, I have plenty theories, but I need (would like) a hard answer. The mathematical brain of a good engineer is by nature is a bit OCD and AR, yes? :lol:
Let me help you out, conversely, you'd say the scientist is fickle and whimsical ( to the latest convenience / fad theory that joins the dots......)
My bad, I forgot, good engineers lack a sense of humour :wink:
I am currently stumped. So I deflect with humor. :lol:
Quote from: "JetdocX"I am currently stumped. So I deflect with humor. :lol:
I think we all are :lol:
Steamer owners are either old enough to have bought them new or strange enough to keep a 16 year old bike on the road. I am both old and strange. And in I.T. And although I was born in Bavaria, and went to university there, you will not see any Bavarian Motor Werk thing in my garage anytime soon.
On rebuilding a dead Buell XB9S last winter I decided that blue (and sometimes even red) Loctite was the answer to most problems having to do with correct torque settings. The Buell factory manual even says so. Mind you this has a lot to do with the fact that the engine is a 45ยบ V-twin that vibrates like a jackhammer. There is no bolt, not kidding; not one single bolt on that engine that doesn't get some amount of goo suggested in the manual on reassembly.
So a little bit of blue will not hurt the steamer, I think.
Quote from: "JetdocX"I am currently stumped. So I deflect with humor. :lol:
With you there but it sometimes backfires on me :wink: :wink:
Anecdotally, my son and I went to the range today with a Ruger .22. I had previously had the barrel drilled for a rail so I could mount a red dot sight.
I spent a few magazines sighting the thing in only to find out the rail was losening from the barrel as it heated up. This is with the blue loctite.
Guess I'll try the red next.... :oops:
:lol: And with your background you should know better....
And shove some of these in too. No SS or copperslip mind :shock:
(http://www.nutsandbolts.com/bmz_cache/c/cf117f3e512cd43ecc0cb2b2a7534b7d.image.100x100.jpg)
:lol:
Just how rapidly and many shots are you firing off? Locktite blue softens at 400 F
(http://www.adventuresportrider.com/forum/images/smilies/gun.gif)
All three mounting screws were loose. :?
Not sure how hot the barrel was, but the trigger was warm.
What temp does the red unglue?
about the same. Heat was not their criteria
http://www.loctiteproducts.com/tds/T_LKR_RED_tds.pdf (http://www.loctiteproducts.com/tds/T_LKR_RED_tds.pdf)
have a look at this. once on though..........
http://www.fortafix.com/rocksett-threadlock.html (http://www.fortafix.com/rocksett-threadlock.html)
700 is too high. I want to be able to pull the rail off the barrel and go with the iron sights once in a while.
Quote from: "JetdocX"700 is too high. I want to be able to pull the rail off the barrel and go with the iron sights once in a while.
are we talking rifle or pistol ? the rail that came with my Ruger 22/45 pistol lets me leave it on permanently and still use the iron sights .
I had to go to Loctite red ...nothing else would hold the screws in .
I'd get advice from a gunsmith tbh. Taking advice from me / on a motorcycle site is liable to get you into all sorts of trouble when you plug the neighbours cat by accident cos the sights came loose.
EDIT: I see Mustang just answered you. You know he's always right 'bout things. so I'll just bow out, ....
Quote from: "BruKen"I'd get advice from a gunsmith tbh. Taking advice from me / on a motorcycle site is liable to get you into all sorts of trouble when you plug the neighbours cat by accident cos the sights came loose.
EDIT: I see Mustang just answered you. You know he's always right 'bout things. so I'll just bow out, ....
we don't need no stinkin gunsmiths ..............
you should always get advice for guns from M/C boards and advice for your bikes from AR15.com :ImaPoser
Gonna give the red a try. :lol:
Same pistol only with tapered barrel and short sights. The rail effectively blocks the rear sight.
Now back on topic. :oops: