My bike´s been running for ten years with cracks in the rear lower engine mounts, repaired in Chile by a Austrian tool mechanic who used brackets and a magic two component whatever to strengthen the mounts.
However, a close inspection reveals a new crack since the last inspection. The crack is on the lower side of the mounts and with the old cracks on the upper side, I suspect I´m running out of hold.
So today I contacted a aluminum specialist in the area who claims he can weld them, but said it needed to be stripped as far as possible, because the more heat he can use the better the weld. I´m visiting him tomorrow for an inspection. If I go ahead, I will need, obviously, to remove the engine from the frame.
Anyone who can share some light on this? I know it´s not a common problem, but for Rocinante it has happened twice. The first time was in San Diego on our way south and Triumph replaced the upper and lower crank case under warranty.
Should I be skeptical to welding, or is it a piece of cake for an expert (this guy has a very good reputation for being just that)?
Engine case mounts or frame mounts? Welding is not an issue, but if its the engine case the age and oil contaminants that will have leeched into the magnesium alloy will result in a poorer weld. There is no real way round that no matter how thoroughly its chemically cleaned. That's not to say the weld won't be strong enough, but it takes a bloody good welder. I can weld ali, its a cinch, provided I've thoroughly cleaned the joints, and I do mean thoroughly. Otherwise I'm crap. Think silicon and spray paint, you get the idea.
:worthless
I assume it's the mounting lugs on the engine ?
why not just get a replacement engine there are lots of them out there ......
tridents, sprints ,tigers ,early speed triples , trophys
It´s the engine case mounts. Otherwise it would be straight forward as you say, Bruken. He is a bloody good welder, so there´s hope.
Why not a replacement engine, Mustang? Well, here I am back at that same old question:). Last time was when I bought a used cylinder head, and so far the reasons are the same, price and nostalgia. Sensible? Not, I guess... :? The engine burns oil now and has covered about 150Kkm.
If it´s going to be too difficult/expensive/labour extensive to fix or if I just feel stupid repairing that dying engine again and again, I´ll order a rebuilt engine from Triumph-Ant in the UK. They can deliver in three weeks for the moment (guess the short delivery time could have to do with the current recession) for about 1200 UKP plus 25%VAT, delivered on my door. I´ll consider it over the weekend after seeing the welder.
On the picture you see the right hand side mount, seen from behind. The yellow spring belongs to the shock absorber.
The rust colored bracket and the green stuff is the repair we did 11 years ago(the green compound may actually have helped keep the fracture clean, Bruken). The bracket has been clamped around the flat frame leg and point welded to the frame to keep it from being shaken downwards, but with as little impact on the frame as possible.
The red arrows point to where the cracks are. The old one are the one on top, while the new is below. It´s not actually on the image because the new crack is on the left side (harder to photograph due to the drive chain. But it´s visible and about 1-1,5mm wide, just about where the arrow is.
Btw, how much work is it to remove the engine? From what I´ve read in the handbook, it seems relatively straight forward.
Getting it out is easy enough, getting it back in is really a two man job because its not a straight lift, though it can be done if you have a second jack reasonably safely on your own. It's a bit a a wiggle though, I only crunched my fingers 3 times :lol:
edit: I cant say I'm familiar with every tiger model out there ... just my own 98, but that repair job looks suspect and that engine mounting system on the frame.... is positively a heathrobinson affair (so it may very well be an original hinkley job, but I doubt it) and could well be why your casing mounts keep cracking. If you are going in for repairs, dont repair an emergency RTW "get me back on the road asap" botch job, return it to original or you could be facing the same problem in the future.
And not wanting to pour salt into the wound but the engine is integral to the frame rigidity and as the engine here is not firmly attached to the frame where it should be, and hasnt been for quite some time, I'd be looking for stress fractures along the spine and subframe too. Hopefully Mustang comes and corrects me, but that's bloody awful.
BTW, it's a whole lot easier attatching the frame to the engine than lifting the engine into the frame. But you'd need a complete strip then.
Myself .................drop that lump and put it on a shelf for nostalgia purposes .
New lump from Triumph-ant in its place .
All of your problems solved , bike is like new again.
It's not like they came with matching #'s like in days of old .
remove carbs remove exhaust unplug electrical connectors remove foot peg brackets ,pull out the other 4 engine bolts . don't be suprised if the lump is still hanging in the frame at this point ! loosen the swingarm pivot bolt and the lump will fall to the ground .
Like bruce says it's harder to get the new one back in and lined up with the mounts , carriage jack makes it easier
Quote from: "Mustang"..... don't be suprised if the lump is still hanging in the frame at this point ! loosen the swingarm pivot bolt and the lump will fall to the ground .
Yea dont forget the last when trying to put it back in either. That squeezes the frame some. For the love of God, Allah, Bhuda (take your pick) I could NOT figure out why I was unable to get the lump back in when doing my rebuild. It just wouldn't fit .... !!! :ImaPoser !!! :oops: :oops: Took me a whole hour to figure that one out too :roll:
Heath Robinson!:) Yeah, I guess. It was done in a toolshop in a one-horse town in the middle of nowhere. But it has held up through the years.
Thanks for the advices guys. But again, it seems, I´ll go against it. A part of me wants to buy new, but a strangely stubborn part of me says no way, you just replaced the head and blah blah. And I just visited the welder who thinks he can make the mounts stronger than original, and at a fraction of the price of a rebuilt engine, so I´ll go for it. Still crazy after all those years...
That is, first I will take the lump out of the frame, then I will inspect the frame and the other mounts. Then I will make a decision. The lump´s got to go out whether I´ll buy a new engine or not, so might as well get started.
I´ll start this tomorrow me think, if time allows.
eh, you'll probably be fine, what do I care, I already ate my last and only hat. I just get more impressed by the ability of the tigger to stand up to abuse each and every day :P I'm keeping mine for sure :D
Quote from: "BruKen"eh, you'll probably be fine, what do I care, I already ate my last and only hat. I just get more impressed by the ability of the tigger to stand up to abuse each and every day :P I'm keeping mine for sure :D
:)
I´ll never sell mine either. Then again, who would buy it?
Quote from: "Rocinante":)
I´ll never sell mine either. Then again, who would buy it?
There's a sucker ,,,erm I mean buyer born every minute , just look in my garage there are 4 of the black bastards in there :shock:
hehehe
Quote from: "BruKen"...that repair job looks suspect and that engine mounting system on the frame.... is positively a heathrobinson affair (so it may very well be an original hinkley job, but I doubt it) and could well be why your casing mounts keep cracking. If you are going in for repairs, dont repair an emergency RTW "get me back on the road asap" botch job, return it to original or you could be facing the same problem in the future.
I´m not sure what you mean here Bruken, but I suspect you misunderstood something. The brackets you see is that last repair we did ourselves while on the road, not something out of Hinckley. We won´t be fixing a repair done on the road, all that will be removed and the original mount will have material removed around the cracks and refilled/welded. In addition the mounts will be increased in size to strengthen them further.
Quote from: "Mustang"Quote from: "Rocinante":)
I´ll never sell mine either. Then again, who would buy it?
There's a sucker ,,,erm I mean buyer born every minute , just look in my garage there are 4 of the black bastards in there :shock:
hehehe
You want a green one? Just broken in and only ridden to church on Sundays..
Quote from: "Rocinante"Quote from: "BruKen"...that repair job looks suspect and that engine mounting system on the frame.... is positively a heathrobinson affair (so it may very well be an original hinkley job, but I doubt it) and could well be why your casing mounts keep cracking. If you are going in for repairs, dont repair an emergency RTW "get me back on the road asap" botch job, return it to original or you could be facing the same problem in the future.
I´m not sure what you mean here Bruken, but I suspect you misunderstood something. The brackets you see is that last repair we did ourselves while on the road, not something out of Hinckley. We won´t be fixing a repair done on the road, all that will be removed and the original mount will have material removed around the cracks and refilled/welded. In addition the mounts will be increased in size to strengthen them further.
Good, that's what I was advising. ( there is always going to be something lost when both parties are translating to a third common language)
Engine´s out. Looks like something´s slightly wrong with the engine mounts, and now big wonder I´ve felt shaking in the left foot peg. Next thing is to investigate the frame for cracks.
Wonder why Triumph made those mounts that tiny and fragile...
is it only the two bottom rear mounts that are busted ?
cuz if the upper rears look like that also I would no way in hell weld that back together .....phone call to triumph-ant for new motor would be my route of repair . but you already know that :roll:
Only the lower mounts are affected and no cracks can be seen on the frame.
A point here is that the damage was done while traveling two-up at a weight of about 480kg over a period of 60 000km. The stress on these mounts I believe must have been extreme and higher still than on the other mounts due to the direct connection to the rear shock through the shock linkage, especially horisontal where the whole frame can flex more than it can vertical. The linkage comes in at about 45 degrees. A slight flaw in the construction not to make them fatter and sturdier, maybe.
Anyway, if the welder still thinks he can make the mounts stronger than the originals, I´ll go for it. Otherwise I´ll call long distance...
if the uppers are good ..a good weld job should make the tigger like new .
Ask your welder if he can machine and bush them so there is a better spread of load across the weld joints. A good welder should be able to repair those. Check the weld join afterwards. Any porosity (looks like sand dropped in the weld pool) or any black flakes, reject the job. Check for weld penetration. To get good enough penetration on a first pass on those mounts is going to take some serious amps and a big tig welder so don't be surprised if you see about 3 or 4 runs.
Quote from: "Rocinante"Btw, how much work is it to remove the engine? From what I´ve read in the handbook, it seems relatively straight forward.
Get someone to help you. I have helped lift a couple of triple's back in and it is easier, as Bruken said, to get a jack and raise it into place. Put the back bolts in first and then the front.
The break looks amazingly similar to the break on my aluminium swingarm, where the torsion bar bolts on. And I am wondering whether the cause is the same. In my case, it was created by an impact, when the disc bolts worked their way loose and hit the calliper carrier, fracturing the aluminium. Is it possible that the engine had an impact of some kind? I would hazard a guess from the right hand lower side (as you are sat on the bike).
Thanks for the tips Bruken. I think he knows what he is doing, and he said it was good it was a long way to the nearest rubber gasket because of the heat needed.
Coolhandluke, thanks for the hints. I will get help and a proper hydraulic lift.
Regarding the cause; When we were traveling we dropped the bike now and again, and it´s possible that an impact could have caused the cracks. But I doubt it, since it happened twice. It´s of course possible that a number of small impact on the lowest part of the shock linkage could be the cause.
In any case, I think the lower mounts looks fragile considering all the punishment they receive from the shock linkage. And I´m sure few Steamers in the world has done as many miles as heavy loaded as Rocinante. That could be the simple explanation.
According to the welder who received the engine today, this is a piece of cake and the mounts will be a lot stronger than original when done.
On an interesting note, a Norwegian guy on a Facebook offroad group I´m part of said the same thing happened to his 97, and when it did he heard about several others and that it was a know issue. Strange, never heard that before.
maybe it's the cold climate...? :roll:
I'm thinking fubar'd bearings in the shock linkage is going to put a hell of a strain on those bottom mounts .
Cold climate? Chile?
Maybe you could be on to something, Mustang. I will check the bearing. However, when it happened to these bikes, they were pretty young.
He also said it was known to happen to hard ridden Tigers. He might have a point.
The lump came back today. Here are a couple of pics. It looks fat and solid to me.
Now, :oops: , Mustang, :oops: , the shock linkage bearings? Well, how could I grease something when the nipple is gone? :oops: :oops: Fubar´s the word. All of them sort of. :roll:
I know, I should´t be in this business. I am not, really...
Mmmm, misery-guts me is not particularly impressed. :lol: but I'm sure you'll be fine... got a hat? :wink:
BEARING LOOK LIKE THIS DOES IT ?
(http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee47/2uoykcuf/repairs/bearing.jpg)
Pretty much. Did you download the image of the net? :wink:
Bruken, me thinks it´s gonna be fine, but I have a hat if need be...
no I took that of one I worked on , you are not the only tiger rider that doesn't know what lack of grease and broken nipples cause
I'm hoping he lined up the lug holes before he started - on one long shaft or similar - if not any mis-alignment is going to put strain on those welds. And did he finish it with a chisel?
Sorry, don't want to appear uncharitable as he's done a fair job where most wouldn't even try, just concerned you get a lasting solution.
Lined up all right, weld is solid as a rock, and the effort was put in making it solid rather than beautiful. I have no doubt it will outlast any other part of the bike. Big words I know, but I feel pretty confident. This guy welds engine mounts for a living, among other things. (hat is kept close just in case though)
Stop worrying guys and rather tell me the best internet source for a complete bearing and spacer set for the shock linkage?
Here you go
http://www.worldoftriumph.com/triumph_m ... k_03=23773 (http://www.worldoftriumph.com/triumph_motorcycle_parts_locator.php?block_01=&block_02=304217&block_03=23773)
Thanks. I found a local supplier for the bearings, the rest comes from my Triumph dealer. In the end the price wash´t that much different from overseas, for once.
Hi Dag
I have replaced the whole unit with used from a breaker on ones I have repaired ....it's a lot cheaper and easier than replacing all of the bearings .
Find a low mileage wreck ....... thunderbirds use the same suspension link as the tiger , I think trophys and sprints do too .
Last one I did cost me 30 bucks from ebay (was a tbird part from a 5000 mile wreck bike )......replacing the bearings would have been well over a hundred plus time and labor .
Quote from: "Rocinante"Lined up all right, weld is solid as a rock, and the effort was put in making it solid rather than beautiful. I have no doubt it will outlast any other part of the bike. Big words I know, but I feel pretty confident. This guy welds engine mounts for a living, among other things. (hat is kept close just in case though)
Stop worrying guys and rather tell me the best internet source for a complete bearing and spacer set for the shock linkage?
I just enjoy passing on my natural inclination towards pessimism. Why I wasnt impressed, he's layered the weld without much penetration from what I can see. As to it's strength fit for purpose I cannot comment, but ask any welder, they always eyeball another's weld jobs. just cant help it :oops:
Quote from: "BruKen"I just enjoy passing on my natural inclination towards pessimism. Why I wasnt impressed, he's layered the weld without much penetration from what I can see.
They have been built up more or less from scratch. Can you explain in layman´s terms what you mean by "without much penetration"?
Found this item, a pity he ships to the US only. It´s for a Legend 2000, but the numbers are identical, so it would work:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2000-Triumph-Le ... 690wt_1180 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/2000-Triumph-Legend-TT-900-Swing-Arm-Linkage-/350511095226?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item519c16ddba&vxp=mtr#ht_690wt_1180)
Quote from: "Rocinante"They have been built up more or less from scratch. Can you explain in layman´s terms what you mean by "without much penetration"?
Weld penetration is how deep into the parent metal the weld goes and is a factor of how many amps (heat as you said) is put in. The ideal weld should be close to 100% i.e. if you were welding metal sheet you would see on the underside the weld penetration. The more the penetration (generally speaking) the more the parent material and weld filler bond (fusion zone) and hence a stonger weld.
(http://www.weldguru.com/images/fig6-13.gif)
It doesnt help layering huge amounts of weld to build up the mount if the "foundation" of that original penetration isnt there. If you look at the offset brackets you can see there is practically no penetration, in fact the surface wasnt even prepared
OK thanks for the info. However, since this guy is well known for being among the best there is, I simply choose to thrust him when he claims the mounts are stronger than ever before...:)
Absolutely, I deliberately mentioned I wasn't necessarily passing judgement on fitness for purpose, only on the method. Short of an ultrasound or X-ray only time will prove or disprove that.
Engine´s back in the frame, only the lower bolts are still not in place. I did it by myself, using a hydraulic motorcycle lift (the one that goes under the engine). Without the swing arm, rear wheel and the shock link, it wash´t too hard. The lower holes are lined up and will be done tonight.
As for the rest, all the broken needle bearings (12 of them :oops:) are arriving tomorrow, and a good friend who is a teacher in a tech school, will fit them back in in their workshop. I´m glad I didn´t have to do that by myself.
Well, lesson learned I guess, that being a "ride til it breaks" kind of rider has it´s price. :roll:
By the way, the teacher recently converted from 20 years of Meridien Triumphs to a 2009 Bonneville, which made him a Hinckley fan overnight. I test rode his bike and boy that was fun. What a great ride...
A bit of confusion here today. This is the connecting rod connection point on the swingarm, seen upside down. There seems to be nothing but the bearing and the seal that holds against the bolt head on the outer side.
Me feeling confused and inadequate? Anybody?
PS Old sleeve, seal and bearing here, not received the new parts yet.
YEP
Dag, my Felix got broken in exactly the same place during a hard hit to the oil pan in the Copper Canyon, Mexico. I hit a boulder with the engine bottom in a washout while standing on the pegs. I was shaken hard enough to rattle my teeth. I now have an enlarged belly pan & strengthened guard frame to cover the whole of the engine & suspension links.
86,000km on it then. 110,000km now. Not as much mileage these days, as I now have a BMW R100GS for road work while Felix is stuck on gravel roads. BTW, thanks for giving me the impetus to visit there. Your stories were inspiring.
The part broken off on mine was lost at that time as I also bent the thick plates holding the engine to the frame, along with the centre stand mount. I ended up losing the sprag clutch in Batopilas & had to push start it all the way home to Canada. Back home, the engine came out. My welder wouldn't touch it until it was dip cleaned. So, I stripped it down completely, as the sprag had to be done anyway. New inlet valves & rings also.
Another broken part on a friend's BMW R1150Gs foot peg required the paint be cooked off before he could start the repair. 6pm on a July 1st national holiday, we got it all done in 2 hours for $20 & 2 cases of beer which we had to help the welder consume.
I would suspect that the heat cleaning would likely cause issues with internal seals & gaskets if the engine is still complete. Unless you decide to get into rebuilding Rocinante, chemical cleaning might be worth looking into, followed by a light sandblasting or stainless steel wire brushing. The heat normalizing to remove stress must also be done after the welding repair.
Good luck on getting it all done.
Thanks for the info, Kevin. I may lengthen the existing plate to cover the vulnerable parts. Looking at the linkage, it´s quite obvious it has gotten a few serious hits through the years.
Most parts are back in the frame now, and I hope to start it up this evening. Just need to fit the carbs and air filter, fill up with liquids and to a final check.
While I´m at it, I want to bypass the side stand switch. There are three cables running from the connector to the switch, but only two from the connector to the system. Redundancy? :?:
Short cut the two cables that goes to the system and remove the switch, is that the solution?
Everything is back together now, and I have a smoother suspension than I have had in years.:)
All is not perfect though. Almost as usual after a reassembly, one of the cylinders is not firing. It´s the centre cylinder and it has got a spark. At low to mid revs it does´t run, and when I pull the plug it´s dry (no gas entering it seems). At higher revs it fires but only high high up.
When I pulled the carbs I noticed that they were pretty well covered in greasy sand, so I realize some may have entered somewhere.
Anything I should try before I pull the carbs and start blowing into holes?
Need to pull the carbs off and completely clean ALL the jets and orifi including the emulsion tubes untill very clean and clear. Refit when all are clean and balance, reset pilots to clean even idle, good to go.
Thanks Metalguru. I have done as much as I can and want to do at the moment, and btw moved over to a new thread here:
http://tigertriple.com/forum/index.php/topic,11356 (http://tigertriple.com/forum/index.php/topic,11356)