I need help. Yeah I know.....
When fully warmed up, my 955i has a high tickover which will drop back to 1100 after a while (several minutes) but when riding it stays at around 1500rpm. I've replaced the crank speed sensor and the rubber gasket around the IACV but it's still doing it.
Anyone had similar?
Did it do it after being stood a while? Was battery ok when you started it? Or did it slowly develop? Need a few clues.....
It's been doing for quite a while now. Yes the bike has been standing lately but it gets put on the Optimate regularly and was doing the high tickover bit all last year. It's not the battery.
Other symptoms are it stalls immediately after getting fuel which is why I thought it might be the crank speed sensor. Been doing that for years.
The IACV gasket got replaced because the original was looking sad last time I had the tank off and I thought it might have developed an air leak in there.
Reason I asked about battery is if you start it with a weak battery it can lead to corrupt trims (voltage not high enough to save when turned off).
The only time I've had a similar problem was either when I'd put too much fuel in the bottom of the map while trying to stop popping and also when I'd raised one of the trims too high. I'd reset the trims and reload the map before I did anything else.
If you have TuneECU I'd check the voltage on the O2 sensor too. If it's U/S and constantly richening the trim that would do it. Does it smell rich?
No doesn't smell rich. Any idea what the O2 sensors should read. I do have Tuneecu and did plug it in but on these with the SAGEM injection it's limited what you can do. I was looking for fault codes but there wasn't any.
O2 should read 0.46v
If you can post up a pic of your readings it'll help spot anything untoward. Which tune are you running?
Like most fuelling probs this sounds like an air leak. The ECU will sense throttle posn (closed) and the engine rpm and if too high, will close the IACV until the revs drop to the programmed level. If, however, you have an air leak, even completely closing the IACV won't drop the revs enough so it'll sit at whatever it can achieve. You need to look in all the usual places. If it's not running rough but is only a tickover prob, that suggests all three pots are getting a share of the leak so that might help find it. It's quite likely that over time , the ECU will have trimmed in extra fuel too so the screen shot will show this although I see it's not smelling rich.
My tired brain can't think of anything else tonight.
Quote from: Bixxer Bob on February 04, 2013, 11:25:47 PM
O2 should read 0.46v
If you can post up a pic of your readings it'll help spot anything untoward. Which tune are you running?
Like most fuelling probs this sounds like an air leak. The ECU will sense throttle posn (closed) and the engine rpm and if too high, will close the IACV until the revs drop to the programmed level. If, however, you have an air leak, even completely closing the IACV won't drop the revs enough so it'll sit at whatever it can achieve. You need to look in all the usual places. If it's not running rough but is only a tickover prob, that suggests all three pots are getting a share of the leak so that might help find it. It's quite likely that over time , the ECU will have trimmed in extra fuel too so the screen shot will show this although I see it's not smelling rich.
My tired brain can't think of anything else tonight.
When riding it it actually goes good. You wouldn't think there's anything wrong. It's purely at tickover. Yes I thought air leak which is why I replaced the IACV gasket. But as I said originally, it will drop down to 1100rpm after a few minutes at tickover.
Thanks for your efforts tonight John.
Not anything as simple as a sticking throttle cable?
When I had similar symptoms to this, it turned out to be the IACV stepper motor/valve itself.
Quote from: NKL on February 05, 2013, 12:14:46 AM
Not anything as simple as a sticking throttle cable?
I will be lubricating that....................when the weather warms up a bit. One of the things I have to try.
Quote from: Timbox2 on February 05, 2013, 09:08:05 AM
When I had similar symptoms to this, it turned out to be the IACV stepper motor/valve itself.
And the cure was to get a new one????? Unfortunately the test on Tuneecu doesn't work on these SAGEM bikes. Or rather, doesn't SEEM to work.
Quote from: blacktiger on February 05, 2013, 09:50:07 AM
Quote from: Timbox2 on February 05, 2013, 09:08:05 AM
When I had similar symptoms to this, it turned out to be the IACV stepper motor/valve itself.
And the cure was to get a new one????? Unfortunately the test on Tuneecu doesn't work on these SAGEM bikes. Or rather, doesn't SEEM to work.
yep, new one, you can sort of test em by taking tank etc off, reconnecting battery and power cycling the igniton as you watch the little white valve, I could tell mine was sticking /not returning properly, be aware you will get a MIL light if you do this as certain things arent connected up, but you can clear the faults with Tune ECU after.
You could always take it apart and clean it eh Tim? :ImaPoser :ImaPoser :ImaPoser
Quote from: Timbox2 on February 05, 2013, 05:39:17 PM
Quote from: blacktiger on February 05, 2013, 09:50:07 AM
Quote from: Timbox2 on February 05, 2013, 09:08:05 AM
When I had similar symptoms to this, it turned out to be the IACV stepper motor/valve itself.
And the cure was to get a new one????? Unfortunately the test on Tuneecu doesn't work on these SAGEM bikes. Or rather, doesn't SEEM to work.
yep, new one, you can sort of test em by taking tank etc off, reconnecting battery and power cycling the igniton as you watch the little white valve, I could tell mine was sticking /not returning properly, be aware you will get a MIL light if you do this as certain things arent connected up, but you can clear the faults with Tune ECU after.
Thanks. Something else to try.
Quote from: Bixxer Bob on February 05, 2013, 07:12:34 PM
You could always take it apart and clean it eh Tim? :ImaPoser :ImaPoser :ImaPoser
yeah, get back to yer Guzzi you :pottytrain2
I can't remember using the IACV test in TECU as I use Tuneboy, but I'm pretty sure MG uses it. So if your IACVdoesn't respond, perhaps you already have the answer. Why not PM MG and ask him?
On the right track there with the IACV.
First have full confidence there are no airleaks or after doing this it will run like poo. IACV pipes, (6mm silicon vac pipe)
Open TECU on the test page.
In Tests and Adjustments, double click on Idle Speed Control, it will now run through a few cycles up and down the bore of the IACV. Repeat test about 3 times or as many as you like.
BTW headlamps off, main switch on, kill switch on, battery on optimate or equivilent, pc on mains. (It matters).
Reset TPS.
Start engine and get to operating temp, if idle is still high, then double click on adjust IACV. As an average this is a minus number usually between -8 to -20 depends on engine preferences. This needs to be set so when the throttle is 'blipped' the revs will drop not severely but smoothly to idle. If the revs drop sharply to below idle and creap up then raise value of IACV. If revs drop slowly and hover about 1500 then lower value to a greater minus value.
Allow about 45 mins to complete, it sounds complicated but its not really.
Failing that pop round for a cuppa.
There is more but that will do for now.
Quote from: metalguru on February 06, 2013, 02:35:04 AM
On the right track there with the IACV.
First have full confidence there are no airleaks or after doing this it will run like poo. IACV pipes, (6mm silicon vac pipe)
Open TECU on the test page.
In Tests and Adjustments, double click on Idle Speed Control, it will now run through a few cycles up and down the bore of the IACV. Repeat test about 3 times or as many as you like.
BTW headlamps off, main switch on, kill switch on, battery on optimate or equivilent, pc on mains. (It matters).
Reset TPS.
Start engine and get to operating temp, if idle is still high, then double click on adjust IACV. As an average this is a minus number usually between -8 to -20 depends on engine preferences. This needs to be set so when the throttle is 'blipped' the revs will drop not severely but smoothly to idle. If the revs drop sharply to below idle and creap up then raise value of IACV. If revs drop slowly and hover about 1500 then lower value to a greater minus value.
Allow about 45 mins to complete, it sounds complicated but its not really.
Failing that pop round for a cuppa.
There is more but that will do for now.
Cheers Nigel. I did some of that already like the TPS reset and IACV test but I didn't know what numbers are right or wrong. I'll give it a go when the temps rise a bit.
Well when I striped it down again today, I found that the throttles weren't closing fully. Although I got/get a snap when I let go of the twist grip I could push them a little further and hey presto the tickover went to the 1100 it should be at.
So I did a big clean up inside the inlets (there was black deposits in there) I also loosened the butterflies on the cross bar and centralized them. Sprayed Teflon lube down the throttle cable and all the pivots across the bodies. The snap back got better and once the bodies were balanced it all seems OK now.
So I guess the upshot of all this is lack of maintenance, cleaning and lubrication over its 10 years of life.
In addition, Nigel, I did connect up the Tuneecu cable but couldn't get a connection????? Can't understand as it connected before OK. Could it be to do with the tank still being off?
H, did you oil the cable in the past? I ask really for the benefit of others as I don't think you would. It doesn't need it because the cable is PTFE lined and could cause it to stick - not completely, but slowing it down, just like you described.
Quote from: Bixxer Bob on March 04, 2013, 02:22:16 PM
H, did you oil the cable in the past? I ask really for the benefit of others as I don't think you would. It doesn't need it because the cable is PTFE lined and could cause it to stick - not completely, but slowing it down, just like you described.
No I hadn't. There's a design fault really because the end of the cable is pointing vertical with the open end open to dirt falling into it. I squirted Teflon lube down there and it did free up the movement of the cable quite a bitwhich, as I said, improved the snap back.
So it's sitting at idle for a 12 minute adaption reset as I type this. Ticking over nicely at 1100rpm.
For the benefit of others, it is unwise to use oil on PTFE lined cables as the oil will create too much friction and deteriorate the PTFE lining. The Teflon spray however will help as BT found out. The difference when the cables are lubed with this stuff is very noticeable. I use a very cheap clamp on type of lubricator that all bike shops sell or on line and use the spray with this untill the cable is flushed out.
The Black deposits as far as I can work out are reflected hydrocarbons from the top of the inlet valve which over time will congeal in the bodies preventingfull closure and do need to be cleaned at service time. Can be even worse when air filters don't work as well as they should.
BT. TECU should connect up weather the tank is on or off. Make sure the main switch is on, headlamps off, charger connected and laptop on mains.
It may be a corrupt program as there were some bugs in the older ones, try downloading the updated program from TECU site and reload it, don't forget to save your tunes first although they shouldn't be affected.
Quote from: metalguru on March 05, 2013, 12:24:04 AM
BT. TECU should connect up weather the tank is on or off. Make sure the main switch is on, headlamps off, charger connected and laptop on mains.
It may be a corrupt program as there were some bugs in the older ones, try downloading the updated program from TECU site and reload it, don't forget to save your tunes first although they shouldn't be affected.
I'm sure it was 2.4.2.0 version. Although I could have mistakenly clicked 2.2. Anyway, it's all back together now and seems to work as it should. Unfortuntely I can't get out for a test ride because the kitchen is being rebuilt and the front of the garage is full of that stuff.
Quote from: metalguru on March 05, 2013, 12:24:04 AM
The Black deposits as far as I can work out are reflected hydrocarbons from the top of the inlet valve which over time will congeal in the bodies preventing full closure and do need to be cleaned at service time. Can be even worse when air filters don't work as well as they should.
Another of the1001 uses for spray on brake cleaner....... :hat10
Finally managed to get out for a ride this morning to test the bike. At first it seemed to misbehaving still but after an hour or so the tickover was settling at normal rpms. Still takes a couple of seconds to drop to 1100rpm but it does go there whereas before it didn't at all.
Now, this might sound daft having owned the 955 for 10 years, but........as I do most of my riding on the 800 these days, I can't remember how quickly the 955 should settle down to tickover. Is it normal to take a couple of seconds?
Who can say what's normal where Tiggers are concerned :ImaPoser
Mine doesn't though, it's drops normally.
Sounds like you are very close, if the engine braking is not as sharp as you like and the revs are taking a time to drop (a couple of seconds is very close) then the IACV value can be changed to make this better.
If for example your IACV value is -8, then try dropping to -10 to -12 which will bring the revs down quicker.
If they drop too quick and below 1100 (BTW it should be 1200) and then creep up to idle then the value should be for example -9.
The higher the minus number (-12) the quicker it will drop the revs, the lower the number (-5) the slower the revs will drop with the 'blip' test.
Adjust the idle fuel trim (IFT) to give a smoother not smelly exhaust. A gas tester is required but with caution a sniff will tell you if it is rich, must stress only a sniff.
If you can the next time you connect up, make a note of the IACV number, the IFT and the LTFT.
Quote from: metalguru on March 17, 2013, 08:23:18 PM
Sounds like you are very close, if the engine braking is not as sharp as you like and the revs are taking a time to drop (a couple of seconds is very close) then the IACV value can be changed to make this better.
If for example your IACV value is -8, then try dropping to -10 to -12 which will bring the revs down quicker.
If they drop too quick and below 1100 (BTW it should be 1200) and then creep up to idle then the value should be for example -9.
The higher the minus number (-12) the quicker it will drop the revs, the lower the number (-5) the slower the revs will drop with the 'blip' test.
Adjust the idle fuel trim (IFT) to give a smoother not smelly exhaust. A gas tester is required but with caution a sniff will tell you if it is rich, must stress only a sniff.
If you can the next time you connect up, make a note of the IACV number, the IFT and the LTFT.
Cheers Nigel. I might get a chance to connect up on Thursday...................if it actually connects this time.
Even with this slight problem, it's still a lovely engine. Really enjoyed getting out this morning. Pulls better as well now that the throttles are balanced again. Roads were quite shitty so couldn't really let it loose. Roll on summer. :XXsunsmile
Had a fiddle today. TuneEcu connected up OK this time. Couldn't do much except I set the IACV value to -12 from -8 just in case. I did discover that just touching the throttle cable under the tank altered the tickover/raised the revs quite a bit. :5huh :doubt All this could well be a simple matter of the throttle cable pissing about. Thinking I'll get a new one anyway as this original is still a bit stiff.
Quote from: blacktiger on March 21, 2013, 04:36:53 PM
I did discover that just touching the throttle cable under the tank altered the tickover/raised the revs quite a bit.
That sounds as though there's no slack in the cable - I like about 2-3 mm in mine.
So, I finally got round to fitting a new throttle cable. All seems OK now. I think my original problem was a combination of things, like old, worn and dirty throttle cable, plus butterfly pivots a bit stiff. Just lubricating the butterfly pivots improved things but now, with the new cable fitted, they snap back to idle so much easier.
Group ride on Sunday will be the real test but blipping the throttle on my patio and it drops straight down to tickover and is spot on. Brilliant!!
Good to hear that all is ok.
For the benefit of others and whoever is interested in preventive maintenance, I have been using one of these at service time on all the control cables.
(http://i1212.photobucket.com/albums/cc455/metalguru1/oiler.jpg) (http://s1212.photobucket.com/user/metalguru1/media/oiler.jpg.html)
And this for lube as teflon based.
(http://i1212.photobucket.com/albums/cc455/metalguru1/tf2.jpg) (http://s1212.photobucket.com/user/metalguru1/media/tf2.jpg.html)
I still stick with the plasticine funnel myself.....
Quote from: metalguru on May 02, 2013, 11:09:53 AM
Good to hear that all is ok.
For the benefit of others and whoever is interested in preventive maintenance, I have been using one of these at service time on all the control cables.
(http://i1212.photobucket.com/albums/cc455/metalguru1/oiler.jpg) (http://s1212.photobucket.com/user/metalguru1/media/oiler.jpg.html)
I've got one of those somewhere and, if it is the same, the reason I'm not keen is that it requires a cut in the outer sheathing of the cable which, ultimately, lets the weather in and then more maintenance is required.
Not sure what type you have there Howard but these are non-invasive.
They clamp on the cable, best at the top so gravity helps the lube. One end of the cable needs to be removed from the bike, ie Throttle or clutch from the handlebar end.
The end of the outer sheath is positioned about half way along the tool with the inner wire protruding from the other.
the tool is clamped up so it seals around both inner and outer, then the lube administered through the hole in the tool until it comes out the other end.
Quote from: metalguru on May 02, 2013, 03:27:17 PM
Not sure what type you have there Howard but these are non-invasive.
They clamp on the cable, best at the top so gravity helps the lube. One end of the cable needs to be removed from the bike, ie Throttle or clutch from the handlebar end.
The end of the outer sheath is positioned about half way along the tool with the inner wire protruding from the other.
the tool is clamped up so it seals around both inner and outer, then the lube administered through the hole in the tool until it comes out the other end.
Sounds just the same as Ian's funnel which is how I do it for the clutch cable. Although I use a rubber funnel not plasticene.