Talking of fuel maps,here's my K after having a Rexxer map blown into the ECU.
(http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h185/wing2541/WinterJanFeb2013029_zps0dd6bf00.jpg)
Good improvement! If I can find it I'll post my Blackbird map after Mark Brewin :qgaraduate at BSD breathed on it. It makes similar power to your K after the remap.
The problem with dynos their all different,but having had my 1100s on the same one with all the bells and whistles at 100hp and seen various 1098's at mid 140's and up and a factory F09 at e'rrr 200+ it's a good reference,but just for those folk who think all aftermarket pipes are the same Rexxer ask for the make of pipe as the maps they supply are different pipe to pipe.
Not doubting they're very good Chris. Mark's dyno is the one most of the Peterborough-based bike press use. He got me a free Power Commander for the 'Bird years ago when it was featured in Ride magazine.
Quote from: Bixxer Bob on February 13, 2013, 09:23:30 AM
Not doubting they're very good Chris. Mark's dyno is the one most of the Peterborough-based bike press use. He got me a free Power Commander for the 'Bird years ago when it was featured in Ride magazine.
Having spent 3 years moving press bikes for MCN and mags,I should imagine I've spent a tad more time at BSD with Mark more than most,as clever as he is,he's needs to get his act together the game is moving on,the problem with Rexxer it requires investment from the tuner,he's had a dable but it doesn't work like that,he'll be looking down the throat of 30 grand for all the bits,the advantage to the punter he/she just pays for a map,no piggy back no fitting and in the world of milliseconds with no PC or Rapid bike fuelling is quicker,easy for me to say now,I've been on a steep learning curve since last august,when the first guy I spoke too announced 'Power Commanders will be gone in 3 year' as I've got two on different bikes I didn't agree at the time,but that was then and this is now!!!.
I don't know about now, but in the past when I've spoken to him about Tuneboy or TuneECU he won't go near them because of the legal implications of using hacker software. I don't know anything about Rexxer, I'll have to bone up on it......
The punch line is 'Reverse engineering ECU' and yes it is computer/ECU hacking and it's very good and very clever,and yes I know Mark has shown reluctance with Rexxer,,so did my connection till he realised what was going on,go to a modern day race meeting everyone maps direct to the ECU,it's called progress so I'm told!!!,all part of the rather steep learning curve I've been on for the last 6 months.
My Dyno guy is the local distributor for PC but privately he told me he likes TuneECU for being able to go straight in, so much so that I have to borrow my USB cable back from him when I need it. He was quite sceptical when I first told him about it 2 years ago.
Quote from: Chris Canning on February 13, 2013, 05:45:55 PM
The punch line is 'Reverse engineering ECU' and yes it is computer/ECU hacking and it's very good and very clever,and yes I know Mark has shown reluctance with Rexxer,,so did my connection till he realised what was going on,go to a modern day race meeting everyone maps direct to the ECU,it's called progress so I'm told!!!,all part of the rather steep learning curve I've been on for the last 6 months.
Trackday warriors are probably using "reverse engineering", race teams with cash will junk the maufacturers ECU and be using their own sensors and race ECU setup. Triumph supplies an open ECU and mapping software for it's 675 Daytona race series. You should try plugging "reverse engineering" software into Triumphs Explorer or Trophy and see where it gets you, or rather, you shouldn't cos Triumph have rigged it to be an expensive experience.
Quote from: Bixxer Bob on February 14, 2013, 10:34:53 AM
Quote from: Chris Canning on February 13, 2013, 05:45:55 PM
The punch line is 'Reverse engineering ECU' and yes it is computer/ECU hacking and it's very good and very clever,and yes I know Mark has shown reluctance with Rexxer,,so did my connection till he realised what was going on,go to a modern day race meeting everyone maps direct to the ECU,it's called progress so I'm told!!!,all part of the rather steep learning curve I've been on for the last 6 months.
Trackday warriors are probably using "reverse engineering", race teams with cash will junk the maufacturers ECU and be using their own sensors and race ECU setup. Triumph supplies an open ECU and mapping software for it's 675 Daytona race series. You should try plugging "reverse engineering" software into Triumphs Explorer or Trophy and see where it gets you, or rather, you shouldn't cos Triumph have rigged it to be an expensive experience.
Your where I was 6 months ago!!! you've already derailed yourself,Reverse Engineering is the basic concept in other words there's no 3rd party,you've lost me with the trackday warrior thing!!.
The BSB championship last year to cut costs made every entry use a Motec ECU,you can access it yourself but it's pretty basic with no traction control and hence why you'll notice no 1198 Duc's,but you can still map it yourself.
I see your bit about Triumph making it an expensive experience,yep been there as well,I see your digging in and resisting progress,people hack into the Pentagon and you think they can't with a Triumph ECU,have a look at how Rexxer work their system,no I don't mean mapping an ECU I mean how they sell their product and how they know what you are doing and how you pay,clever??? it's bloody rocket science.
As for the product itself,you contact them via a supplier with your bike and spec they supply you with ex number of maps,I said maps you don't get just one.
I could write War and Piece about how I got into this and what has gone since last august,I've even been to see another individual incognito who charges £360 a map and reckons he can do 9 in a day!!!!!!! and does,we didn't get on because my attitude is like yours is now,but sixmonths on have come to realise F me I can't beleave they can do this stuff,but they do,I was lucky because I've got someone who I can refer stuff too and was normally met with a wry smile.
Bloody hell, Chris, you don't half jump to conclusions! First, I'm not arguing with you, just stating what I know. Definitely not "digging in and resisting progress" . I like progress, as long as it's legal, in fact I'm working on getting a new piece of software working that connects to the bike via bluetooth to see if it's any better than TunECU. I know there are plenty of people out there that are far better at this than me, but paying them doesn't give me the same buzz as doing it myself. Next, regarding Triumph, I've been hacking encrypted software since the early nineties (although not on bikes, this was in communications ) so I KNOW you can never make a system totally secure. Put it this way, a handful of maker's programmers trying to thwart many thousands of hackers is never going to work for long and where there's a market.......
Going on, call it reverse engineering, hacking, whatever. It might be legal, it might not - bear in mind I use both Tuneboy and TunECU which is the same principle - but it's sure as hell going to void your warranty. Not that that is a worry to any of us.
As I said before, and unlike you, I know nothing of Rexxer. Yet....... so have no idea what they're about. I'm pleased for you that they did a good job on your map. But in the car world ECU reprogramming is nothing new.
Edit: I've spent 10 minutes reading up on Rexxer. You suggested I was "digging in" over progress away from plug in boxes like Power Commander, but directly altering the maps inside the ECU is exactly what we've all been doing with Tuneboy and TuneECU for years. Rexxer does nothing that they don't from a first look. Tuneboy can change injector parameters and ign timing, (I'm not sure if TuneECU can though) just the same as Rexxer. Where Rexxer does have an advantage is the modern bikes like Diavel but that's hardly relevant to owners of a Girly. And of course their large map database. By the way, before I ran a new map, I'd need to know who wrote it and look at the numbers to see what they'd changed. Getting it wrong can be very expensive. But before you jump again, I'm not knocking your contacts, I'm sure they're at the very top of their game :hat10
Quote from: Bixxer Bob on February 14, 2013, 06:28:23 PM
Edit: I've spent 10 minutes reading up on Rexxer. You suggested I was "digging in" over progress away from plug in boxes like Power Commander, but directly altering the maps inside the ECU is exactly what we've all been doing with Tuneboy and TuneECU for years. Rexxer does nothing that they don't from a first look.
Except it's 3 bloody grand..................
Software "ECM Titanium Map-Editor"
With our newly developed Software "ECM Titanium Map-Editor" you have the ability to modify all functions of the ECU infinitely. Engine maps, pre-ignition, lambda, outlet control, display notice and the immobilizer can all be modified.
PRICE:
2.998,- EUR
(VAT incl.)
Aye, I spotted that too...... :hat10
OK now that's blown over.
You need wheel sensors, normally associated with ABS, to use traction or launch control, an inertial sensor or MRU would probably be useful too.
Reading between the lines with Triumphs latest move, being a cynical B'std, I think it's either a case of the accountants / lawyers getting in on the act to limit their warranty / litigation exposure, always seems to happen whencompanies grow our are more successful in their field. Another conspiracy theory is that they are seeing how the EU regulators are pushing and trying to get ahead of the curve. Not that I subscribe to that, that's more Honda than Triumph who traditionally are more wait and see.
Quote from: Sin_Tiger on February 15, 2013, 02:33:52 AM
OK now that's blown over.....
:ImaPoser
I think it's simpler than that Sin, I think Triumph are only interested in warranty claims. Even on older bikes, if you tamper with a bike that is warranted and you screw up, it's your loss. They'll know because the ECU logs events, so if you hook up a non-standard ie non-Triumph device it will record it. You can of course clear the logs but that also looks suspicious doesn't it? And Triumph isn't like a court of law, if they even think you've tampered with a warranted bike the warranty is void.
I also think the reason for locking down the ECU on new bikes is to make owners pay Triumph service rates instead of fixing stuff themselves. Of course, it could be altruistic in that they really care about their customers and want to save them from hurting themselves by tinkering with stuff they shouldn't :hat10
Quote from: blacktiger on February 14, 2013, 09:43:42 PM
Quote from: Bixxer Bob on February 14, 2013, 06:28:23 PM
Edit: I've spent 10 minutes reading up on Rexxer. You suggested I was "digging in" over progress away from plug in boxes like Power Commander, but directly altering the maps inside the ECU is exactly what we've all been doing with Tuneboy and TuneECU for years. Rexxer does nothing that they don't from a first look.
Except it's 3 bloody grand..................
Software "ECM Titanium Map-Editor"
What are we getting into Luddites.com!!!,It's not 3 grand it's a dam sight more than that,but for the likes of you or me who cares!!!!! thats not our problem thats cost to the tuner,what counts to the customer no piggy back,no fitting and one less thing to go wrong and a more precise tool, oh blimey almost forgot and cheaper.
As for accessing the ECU,that hasn't stopped Power Commanders being a big seller,of course the luddite punch line is 'You can take e'm off' yea and you can get a stock map blown in alot quicker :wave
With our newly developed Software "ECM Titanium Map-Editor" you have the ability to modify all functions of the ECU infinitely. Engine maps, pre-ignition, lambda, outlet control, display notice and the immobilizer can all be modified.
PRICE:
2.998,- EUR
(VAT incl.)
Quote from: Sin_Tiger on February 15, 2013, 02:33:52 AM
Another conspiracy theory is that they are seeing how the EU regulators are pushing and trying to get ahead of the curve. Not that I subscribe to that, that's more Honda than Triumph who traditionally are more wait and see.
That wasn't the case with the 800s when they gave them 94bhp well ahead of the new 47bhp (exactly half of 94) licencing laws being voted on in the EU parliament.
I case you're wondering what's going on. You cannot restrict a bike to less than half its original power output. So the Tiger800 can be restricted to the 47bhp for the A2 licence. http://www.1stopinstruction.com/a2restrictedlicenceeastlondon.html
Wow, this is way more interesting than arguing the toss over car engine oils :hat10
Wasn't thinking of that specifically and I did put the EU thing and the "wait and see" in different sentences. I was referring more to how the industry was moving, hence the reference to Honda. You do have a point on that issue though.
How does the 33hp restrict kit work then?
I'm off for my porridge before it gets cold :pottytrain2
Quote from: Sin_Tiger on February 15, 2013, 10:30:34 AM
How does the 33hp restrict kit work then?
No such thing any more. The EU moved the goal posts again.
:violent1 about time they had some serious austerity measures there.
Anyway, back at the fort. This is what I managed with the Thruxton, after a few tweaks and Tune ECU.
Quote from: Bixxer Bob on February 15, 2013, 09:49:35 AM
Of course, it could be altruistic in that they really care about their customers and want to save them from hurting themselves by tinkering with stuff they shouldn't :hat10
That must be it.
Nice map Sin, that lift is every bit as impressive as Chris's Rexxer map, except if course TunECU is free!!
Here's a comparison;
TuneECU REXXER Tuneboy
Need a plug in box no no no
between ECU and bike
Blow custom maps into ECU yes yes yes
Blow standard maps into ECU yes yes yes
Alter timing map dunno yes yes
Alter ECU map yes yes yes
Alter other ECU parameters yes yes yes
Cost free no no
Stop winding him up will you :pimp
It does ride nice, friend took it out for a short spin two up, came back, looked at me and just said "Bloody Gangsta" which is local parlance for a hooligan bike :eusa_clap
Tune ECU did help finding some faults on the induction side and once I got it going properly was a breeze to use.
Quote from: Bixxer Bob on February 15, 2013, 01:47:00 PM
Nice map Sin, that lift is every bit as impressive as Chris's Rexxer map, except if course TunECU is free!!
Here's a comparison;
TuneECU REXXER Tuneboy
Need a plug in box no no no
between ECU and bike
Blow custom maps into ECU yes yes yes
Blow standard maps into ECU yes yes yes
Alter timing map dunno yes yes
Alter ECU map yes yes yes
Alter other ECU parameters yes yes yes
Cost free no no
Perhaps we could have a list of bikes that the above apply too,after all this was put in talking about bikes not Triumphs.
I would suggest whats going to cause the hassle is car ECU's the Yanks sorry Americans have had an open policy but I'm informed that may come to and and what kind of knock on effect that will have is anyone's guess.
Quote from: Sin_Tiger on February 15, 2013, 11:46:58 AM
:violent1 about time they had some serious austerity measures there.
Anyway, back at the fort. This is what I managed with the Thruxton, after a few tweaks and Tune ECU.
Thats interesting seeing that,fancy having a dyno that show's under 100hp,how quaint,you'd think it would come up in red at the bottom 'Not a Lot' :wave
Quote from: Sin_Tiger on February 15, 2013, 02:49:30 PM
Stop winding him up will you :pimp
Oh alright then..... subject closed :eusa_clap
Quote from: Chris Canning on February 15, 2013, 04:03:14 PM
Thats interesting seeing that,fancy having a dyno that show's under 100hp,how quaint,you'd think it would come up in red at the bottom 'Not a Lot' :wave
:violent1 :grnb :p :p
Changed my mind Bob, go for it ;-)
What's eating you Chris, got cabin fever our somebody nick your chain lube :pottytrain2
You can adjust ignition for the KTM with Tune ECU.
So they all do pretty much the same then!
At this point, and after leading a 'healthy debate" with Chris on the subject, I have to make a point in his defence.
We "dabble".
Chris did his research, tracked down a professional outfit and had a properly designed map installed.
Also, Tuneboy is sold to individuals and is tied to a single bike by software key. It covers a range of Manufacturers and is increasing all the time, but no-one is going to easily make money by using it. TuneECU does roughly the same range of bikes but is free. If you have a dyno and know what you are doing, you could make money using it but that would contravene the software terms of use. The owner of the software was altruistic in not making money from his work so doesn't want anyone else to either. This left Rexxer a bit of a problem; how to make money from their expertise. Their solution was two-fold; offer a professional, well-backed-up service to specialist tuning shops and aim it at a very specific area of the market. If you look at their customer base, it's high-end; the sort of people that buy expensive bikes and pay fortunes to have them maintained, not the sort inclined to do it themselves hence there's a profit in it.
Only my opinon of course.... :thumbsup
Quote from: Bixxer Bob on February 17, 2013, 10:25:22 AM
it's high-end; the sort of people that buy expensive bikes and pay fortunes to have them maintained
10 years ago that used to be this board.
Quote from: Chris Canning on February 17, 2013, 05:57:17 PM
Quote from: Bixxer Bob on February 17, 2013, 10:25:22 AM
it's high-end; the sort of people that buy expensive bikes and pay fortunes to have them maintained
10 years ago that used to be this board.
Aye Chris, it probably was, I see you're getting on for a decade in here. But I meant 1198s, Diavels as an example. Still, if folks with cash don't buy expensive new bikes there'll never become cheap second-hand ones for the rest of us eh?
Quote from: Bixxer Bob on February 17, 2013, 10:25:22 AM
Chris did his research, tracked down a professional outfit and had a properly designed map installed.
As it happens John Hackett of JHP is a very close friend,when I'd done my home work else where went to him to cross reference,he was just in the process of installing it having also realised the writing was on the wall for piggyback,he informs me last night not only anybike with a reprogramable ECU can be done,but even our turbo diesel vans,all for a dam sight less than a PC.
I've been giving the van thing some thought ever since some dork at the Caravan and Motorhome (don't ask) show wanted to charge me £300 to re-map my Ducato motorhome.