This happened over night a couple weeks ago and I can't figure it out. It is not the same issue as every Tiger's characteristically slow/double try start, mine has always had that issue. The problem is that one morning, it just decided it did not want to start and required a lot of throttle and hesitation to keep it running, like it isn't being choked (if it had one). It will not idle or start without giving it gas to keep it running. It fires right up but stalls just like it needs choke unless I hold the throttle open while it coughs and misses. I suspected the IACV and removed it, inspected it, and replaced it...it appears ok. Tune ECU checked it and said it is ok. I observed it move and it ran up and down correctly as far as I know. I just remapped the ECU with 10120_Adjusted_AF.hex and reset the TPS and it still does it. Tune ECU IACV setting is -4. Once it is warm, it idles fine at 1220 rpm very steady and runs without issue. It only does this when it is cold. I've checked all of the vacuum lines and they look good. It has no fault codes. I replaced the battery just to be sure it wasn't part of the problem. Is there something easy that I'm missing? Has anyone had this problem before? Please help, I'm pulling my hair out.
Bike: 2002 Tiger 955i stock air filter and stock exhaust
Problem: Rough start no idle when cold/start and idles fine warm
Symptom happened overnight the day after a 2000 mile 4 day trip.
No fault codes and happens with stock ECU tune 10082 and updated 10120_Adjusted_AF tune.
Couple of details needed here,
What is the milage total?
When was the last time the throttle bodies were balanced?
When you say it has always had a starting problem, do you use ANY throttle when trying to start it and did you in the past.
These girlies don't like any throttle when trying to start, all it will accomplish is non-starting.
Did you check the IACV pipes VERY closely as they perish and crack in the convoluted parts, best to replace with silicon as the very last Girly will be getting on in age by now.
Thanks for the quick reply.
Total mileage is 20,500. The throttle bodies were balanced at 12,000 miles.
I never used any throttle when starting before. Now it will not start without throttle to keep it running. After it warms up, it will start normally without throttle and idle fine. It doesn't surge at all when warm and there is no hiccup or hesitation throughout the throttle range; no backfiring either.
I agree with replacing the IACV tubes, but for troubleshooting, if a tube was a cracked, wouldn't I have abnormal idle when it was warm?
Whatever the problem is, it happened overnight. It started fine everyday for 2 years until this incident. That makes me believe it is a sensor or a vacuum leak, i.e. IACV tube, but it runs so well when warm, I can't figure it out.
I forgot to mention that I replaced the plugs, book recommended NGK, while troubleshooting and they all looked good color/temp wise.
Thanks again metalguru.
Since it runs fine when warm, sounds like a faulty sensor or so to me. The bike should enrich the mixture automatically with a cold start, apparently it doesn't. I'm too new to Tigers to have a more detailed idea and the Tuono (my first injection bike) never had an issue so never bothered to dive into these things.
Good luck, Dutch
Update.
I just replaced the IACV hoses with rubber vacuum hose. The old plastic hose was not cracked so I guess it was at least good preventative maintenance.
Dutch, I'm moving to Geilenkirchen, GE in May and bringing the Tiger with me. Glad to know there are some Tigers running around up there.
As you can appreciate it is a bit of a problem with diagnosis when the bike is remote so there may be some strange questions to try and find the fault.
First strange one is,
Is there a reason for running the map you are?
Do you have modified exhaust and airbox?
10173 would be a better map to run and surging can be eliminated although not reported. (the map you have can cause problems). (Can send a known map to try if corrupt map is suspect)
There are 2 sensors which can cause trouble,
The engine temp sensor on the thermostat housing, it's rare but is the temp guage travelling about 1/3 up the gauge when it warms up?
The second is the airbox temp on the front of the airbox,
Has it become disconnected?
With TuneEcu is it showing airbox temp when running, it gets quite high?
Next is the Barometric hose which runs from the airbox back along the bike frame to the ECU.
It is the black convoluted plastic pipe, disconnect both ends and either with a vacuum pump or blow through the pipe with a finger over the other end and check it for continuity. The barometric diaphram must be checked GENTLY by either vacuum or sucking to detect a leak.
Thanks again metalguru for your help.
I loaded that 10120 map today to try something out, thinking that maybe it would "jog" the ECU and somehow fix my problem. Before today it was running the same map that I assume was loaded since new in 2002. I got the 10120 map from http://www.tomhamburg.net/Tune_List.html . The 10173 on that list claims it is for a different VIN than mine with aftermarket exhaust. I have stock exhaust and stock air filter with no airbox mods.
My temp gauge usually reads lower than 1/3, just above the double hatch mark on the bottom of the gauge.
The airbox temp sensor is connected. I have removed and re-installed the connector about 10 times now pulling the airbox off troubleshooting the IACV. Is the temperature reading on diagnostics page of TuneECU (not the water temp gauge reading) the airbox temp? That reading climbs in temp as the bike warms up and has two voltage readings beside of it.
Tune ECU is displaying baro pressure. I'll check continuity with the plumbing tomorrow. Maybe it is reading ambient baro pressure and not airbox. I would imagine though that it would show symptoms at higher RPM/throttle if there was a leak. Thanks for that advice.
Spot on with the airbox sensor.
Are the IACV pipes on the correct ports?
There are 4 ports but only 3 are live.
Would like to see the results of a throttle body balance as could be the usual TB to cylinder head gasket leaking, they are prone to leaks, if changing this make sure the soft cheese screws are replaced with SS. While in the TB area is to check for contamination inside the TBs will not cause your problem but nice to do.
While having the pc connected, was the TPS reset after loading the tune? What is the voltage reading of the TPS on TuneEcu? Any more than from memory .68V then replace, good to replace if TBs have to come off to replace gasket.
The later tunes run a treat in earlier bikes but not vice versa.
If you are in the airbox it is a common mod to remove the baffle inside, if plastic with a hot knife/soldering iron or if metal pull it out and drill another intake hole in the front of the airbox opposite to existing and fit the snorkel so it covers the temp sensor. Not vital mods but the running is better.
Quote from: Arkansas Traveler on March 23, 2013, 11:50:30 PM
Dutch, I'm moving to Geilenkirchen, GE in May and bringing the Tiger with me. Glad to know there are some Tigers running around up there.
Cool, that is really very close to where I live. We can meet up and I'll show you some really nice roads just a little south of that in the Eifel.
Bit off-topic but nevertheless: can you run the bike on a US plate? Germany is one of the stricktest countries in Europe when it comes to the technical state of a vehicle. All modifications need to be approved and it can be quite a pain to get a bike that has been modified on a German plate. On the positive side: Holland is not so strickt, so we can always get the bike a Dutch plate and flog it. Tigers are a bit more expensive here than in Germany, so proceeds should allow for purchase of a German bike with Tüv. To illustrate: mine started it's career in Germany as well.
Hey Dutch, I just PM'd you.
metalguru,
The IACV pipes are on the correct ports. I only removed/replaced one at a time to ensure they didn't get mixed up.
I reset the TPS before updating the tune, it didn't fix it, and again after the new tune, and still didn't fix it. It has the same exact issue with both maps. The TPS voltage is .61V.
I checked the baro hose for continuity and it didn't leak. I'll run a rubber hose to replace that brittle plastic line soon.
I like your thinking about a throttle body gasket leaking. One of the intake valves that you can see when looking down the throttle bodies is much cleaner than the other 5 valves. It would be the #1 cylinder inboard/right valve. I wonder if it is sucking air over that intake port. Is that a sign of a gasket leak? I attached a picture of that intake port.
Thanks again for all of the input.
**Update**
I sprayed throttle body cleaner all around the throttle body while starting it and after it was running and there was no change in RPM, telling me that the gasket is sound.
All I can think of to do now is swap out the TPS and stepper motor even though Tune ECU says they are ok. I'll have to order the parts.
After the bike warms up (about 1 min), everything is fine. Starts right up with no throttle and idles perfectly.
Input is still very welcomed. Thanks again.
Looks very much like the gasket is leaking.
When replacing use a good gasket sealer like 3bond or blue Hylomar and just a smear.
It will be a good time to replace the screws for equivilent SS.
When balancing the throttle bodies use good quality gauges, the balance has to be exact, confirm the balance with feeler gauges between the butterflies and bodies. Then carry out set up and trims as per TuneEcu instructions.
Make sure the IACV is clean and cycles fully not forgetting the foam gasket. Confirm correct adjustment via 'blip' test.
While you have parts on order and bike is apart it may be a good idea to run through the shims to ensure all is good, they don't often need adjustment but the milage is right for a check up.
I once had similar symptoms, wouldn't idle cold, fine once warm. In my case it was a faulty stepper, or to be more precise, it was after I stripped the stepper to give it a clean, and as Bixxer is also aware this is not a wise move in a dark garage. A new stepper did cure mine, but obviously cant say for sure if its the same for you.
Thanks Timbox2 for the input. I'm ordering a new stepper and TPS and see how that goes. That makes me feel a little more settled to hear someone else has had a similar issue.
I'm slightly at odds with MG here despite us agreeing on most things and more in line with Tim. As it runs ok hot, but not starting or cold, my money is on stepper motor in IACV being stuck in the hot engine position. We'll see eh?
TuneECU IACV test would soon show if it is.
I ordered a stepper motor that should come in by the weekend. I'm going to be out of town for the week after it arrives so it'll be a couple weeks before I update the status.
I'm betting on the stepper motor and it was my first idea of the problem. However, I checked it on Tune ECU and with MotorScan professional diagnostics that a buddy let me borrow, and they both cleared the stepper as having no issues. I observed the stepper motor run its startup BIT when turning on the ignition and it appeared ok so I began looking elsewhere. I'm just throwing parts at it now and The stepper is my first choice.
I will share the results of the stepper swap. Fingers crossed.
I can see your thinking here BB, what threw me from blaming the IACV totally was the rather clean port but only on one inlet.
AT, when replacing the TPS make sure you replace the screws as they are soft. The TB gasket will have to be replaced as the TPS will not clear the frame. As these engines run so lean a tiny leak can make them run quite rough but when things are warm and the clearances close then so can the leak, have had similar before, but Girlies can be individual likewise the faults.
Ah, you have the advantage MG, I've got photos turned off on my phone due to crappy one G reception here in darkest Kent. :hat10
Okay folks, problem solved! I only replaced the stepper motor and it fixed it. I still don't know why the diagnostics didn't turn up a fault with the old stepper. Anyway, it is fixed now.
MG- I don't know the cause of that clean port, possibly still have a leaking throttle body gasket. I sprayed it down with TB cleaner though while it was idling and again with the throttle lock on at a higher RPM and didn't notice any change in RPM or other sign of a leak. I'm about 4,000 miles out for a valve clearance check so I'll hold off until then to replace the seal. Another possibility is that the IACV seal to the airbox was not very tight. I could see light on the inside of the airbox when shining a flashlight on the IACV from outside the box. I doubt it could create an air current draw up into that stack and down that single port. I sealed it up so I'll find out next time I change the filter.
Thanks again to everyone for all of the input. I really appreciate it.
Well, I didn't fix it. It ran fine for two days after the stepper motor swap and then day three following a 400 mile ride, it started the whole no idle when cold routine again.
Yesterday I replaced the throttle body gasket as MG recommended and checked the compression which was good. I got it running long enough to warm up and balance the throttle bodies. After putting it all back together it would start fine but it was still warmed up from the TB balance. This morning, same old issue, no idle when cold and now it is weak to idle when warm, around 800-900 RPM.
I'm guessing it is the TPS but I'm not getting an error code for it. I reset the TPS with TuneECU several times. I am getting a voltage of between .61-.69 from it. Can it be bad without a fault being recorded by the ECU? My book doesn't give any pinpoint values for checking the sensor, just continuity checks to the ECU.
Thanks again for any input.
AT, if it's ok when warm but not when cold you need to be looking at a temp sensor. The ECU takes values from the engine (water) temp, the intake air temp and intake air pressure- as well as the throttle position - to work out a) how much oxygen is available in the air and so by referencing the correct part of the fuel map, b) how long to open the injectors to allow fuel into the TBs. If the engine or air temp sensor is reading warm when the engine is cold you won't be getting enough fuel going in (think cold carb engine with no choke).
Read the sensor voltage in TuneECU for clues.
If not a sensor, and bearing in mind a 400 mile run screwed it up again, look at what changed in your trims. The ECU for some reason may have trimmed a value out of range.
For what it's worth, mine was running sweet when I went out this morning having just done a TB balance, 100 miles later it's back to normal, and not in a good way.
Quote from: Arkansas Traveler on April 14, 2013, 08:51:53 PM
I'm guessing it is the TPS but I'm not getting an error code for it. I reset the TPS with TuneECU several times. I am getting a voltage of between .61-.69 from it. Can it be bad without a fault being recorded by the ECU? My book doesn't give any pinpoint values for checking the sensor, just continuity checks to the ECU.
If the variation is more than .66 then the tps is at fault.
Strange it is giving cold start problems, Check out the warm up map and what is your LTFT set at and the IFT.
MG- LTFT 4.1 and IFT 0.0
I attached some screenshots from TuneECU. I got the program after this issue developed, so I don't have a healthy baseline for comparison. Does anything look abnormal? The first image is of a cold engine and the last is after it's warmed up.
I also just received a book with resistance values for the coolant and IAT sensors. Both of them were slightly less than their listed tolerances. I'll be ordering them today with a TPS.
1st pic is a good clue to the TPS being at fault, it is showing .69 when it should be less, unless throttle was open at the time of the shot. It is good practice when making any adjustments to reset TPS, start engine and without touching the throttle (best done warm in this case) untill the Throttle value stabilises from 0.0 TPS reset to running value. (can vary).
I ordered a TPS, coolant temp sensor, and an IAT. The movers surprised me with an early packing of my household goods of which the Tiger belongs for shipping to Germany. I'll carry the parts with me and swap them all out when I get the bike over there.
Thanks again folks.
**Update**
Valve clearances were the culprit. I replaced the TPS, Coolant Temp Sensor, Intake Air Temp Sensor, Stepper Motor, and Throttle Body Gasket, none of them changed a thing. So checking the valve clearances found several slightly out of tolerance. Compression checked good when warm, just a little weak when cold. I had a shop do the 12,000 mile service and I am willing to bet they didn't check my valve clearances then. Anyhow, runs great and I just got it plated in Germany. Lets ride, Dutch!
Quote from: Arkansas Traveler on July 14, 2013, 12:46:28 PM
I replaced the TPS, Coolant Temp Sensor, Intake Air Temp Sensor, Stepper Motor, and Throttle Body Gasket
Guess you have some spare parts for sale then
QuoteLets ride, Dutch!
Daytrip "around Ruhrstausee" sounds great to me. I'll contact you via pb soon. Looking forward to meet you in person :wave
Greetz, Dutch
Yeah, I have all of the sensors in the spares bin. Somehow I lost the stepper in the move though. Let me know if you need one.
Looking forward to the ride.