Hiya fellas,
Got an issue as per title which I hope someone can help with.
Noticed last Friday and more so on Saturday that the bike was a lot slower to start.....getting to the point of the battery having next to no reserve. Prior to this the bike has always started first hit.
Ordered a new battery on the weekend which was due yesterday.
Monday was slower to start and Tuesday the bike went flat. Left it 5hrs then just got it to catch.
Got home Tuesday to find new battery waiting for me
http://www.wemoto.com/parts/picture/hl-813102/.
Fitted it, started the bike and thought all was good. Wednesday morning the bike seemed slower to start and steadily worse until no go tonight (Thursday) after stopping for fuel.
Checked the charging on weekend and all good at 14.2Vdc. I always run with the headlights on and the heated grips are wired through the ignition. When the bike is off nothing is left powered - do not have an alarm.
At a loss as to the cause apart from a dodgy starter motor which kills the battery - but after a 50 mile run, albeit with lights on, I would've thought the battery would be good again especially when I left it for 10 mins on tickover (lifted to 1500Rpm to try to counter act issue) after stopping at work.
Any advice as always is much appreciated.
Cheers fellas.
you can check for battery drain with meter
see link
http://www.wikihow.com/Find-a-Parasitic-Battery-Drain
have you checked the glove box light ? sometimes they stay on when ya shut the door. lol
have you tried unpluggin your heated grips ? id start there first even if its not that at least youll know its not them. does the battery go flat or is it just hard to turn over ?
I'll take a punt on the ignition switch being the culprit.
Quote from: ram33 on November 29, 2013, 03:43:17 PM
you can check for battery drain with meter
see link
http://www.wikihow.com/Find-a-Parasitic-Battery-Drain
Have a decent Fluke MM so will try that once it's charged up
Quote from: rybes on November 29, 2013, 08:16:00 PM
have you checked the glove box light ? sometimes they stay on when ya shut the door. lol
have you tried unpluggin your heated grips ? id start there first even if its not that at least youll know its not them. does the battery go flat or is it just hard to turn over ?
:icon_lol: It was actually the seat belt warning light because I never put it on!!!! Definitely not the grips - pulled the fuse, but good shout fella.
Quote from: Sin_Tiger on November 29, 2013, 09:44:31 PM
Ignition switch :icon_scratch: What would I be looking for there? Can't work out how that causes a battery drain......I'm all ears though fella.
I'll take a punt on the ignition switch being the culprit.
Test the battery when not running-
Test again with bike at idle-
Test again when revving the bike to 5k rpm-
If your tester shows no sign of volts going up then the alternator is not charging. No charge = Dead Battery = New Alternator
aaaaaaaaaah the seat belt warnin light. they can be tricky little buggers :icon_lol:
Quote from: HeavyHustler on November 30, 2013, 05:39:57 AM
Test the battery when not running-
Test again with bike at idle-
Test again when revving the bike to 5k rpm-
If your tester shows no sign of volts going up then the alternator is not charging. No charge = Dead Battery = New Alternator
Already checked that one. On idle @ 1100rpm alternator kicks out 12.4Vdc, @ 1500prm the alternator pickes up to 13.1Vdc, 2000rpm & upwards it kicks out 14.2Vdc. This was the reason I upped the idle to 1500rpm in an attempt to give the battery some extra help when sitting at lights. Thanks for the idea though :thumbsup
My buddy had similar symptoms with his 2000 Legend this summer. We checked and cleaned every switch, and finally pulled the starter out as our last option. The commutator was covered with a layer of dust that had baked on, and was not getting enough current to spin. That end of the starter was just packed full of black dust, and it was hard to spin by hand. A new starter corrected the problem. He got one from a ND dealer that dealt mostly in large truck alternators, etc., but they were able to order him one. I think it was just under $100. Identical part and everything. Reading back through your posts, I am not clear if you ever determined that the battery was actually dead or low, or if you were assuming it was the battery because of the starter symptoms? If you test the battery and it is okay, you might look at the starter. By the way, the mileage on his original starter was only about 35,000 miles.
Quote from: Frosties on November 30, 2013, 01:12:33 PM
Quote from: HeavyHustler on November 30, 2013, 05:39:57 AM
Test the battery when not running-
Test again with bike at idle-
Test again when revving the bike to 5k rpm-
If your tester shows no sign of volts going up then the alternator is not charging. No charge = Dead Battery = New Alternator
Already checked that one. On idle @ 1100rpm alternator kicks out 12.4Vdc, @ 1500prm the alternator pickes up to 13.1Vdc, 2000rpm & upwards it kicks out 14.2Vdc. This was the reason I upped the idle to 1500rpm in an attempt to give the battery some extra help when sitting at lights. Thanks for the idea though :thumbsup
Donuts! :icon_scratch: Well then......are your terminals tight? IDK but am curious as to the outcome. Keep at it matey!
You really need to confirm you have a parasitic drain or not, as per reply 1 to this thread. If you don't know what your drawing in a power off situation, you are only guessing what "might" be at fault.
If you have no alarm, there should be no issue to put your Fluke MM in series with the negative to earth and then look at your drain current.
Regards Phil
Quote from: ssevy on November 30, 2013, 04:44:10 PM
My buddy had similar symptoms with his 2000 Legend this summer. We checked and cleaned every switch, and finally pulled the starter out as our last option. The commutator was covered with a layer of dust that had baked on, and was not getting enough current to spin. That end of the starter was just packed full of black dust, and it was hard to spin by hand. A new starter corrected the problem. He got one from a ND dealer that dealt mostly in large truck alternators, etc., but they were able to order him one. I think it was just under $100. Identical part and everything. Reading back through your posts, I am not clear if you ever determined that the battery was actually dead or low, or if you were assuming it was the battery because of the starter symptoms? If you test the battery and it is okay, you might look at the starter. By the way, the mileage on his original starter was only about 35,000 miles.
Ahhh crap! I was really hoping no one was going to throw this one in - it's been at the back of my mind. I'm currently at 39,000 miles.
Quote from: London_Phil on November 30, 2013, 06:27:51 PM
You really need to confirm you have a parasitic drain or not, as per reply 1 to this thread. If you don't know what your drawing in a power off situation, you are only guessing what "might" be at fault.
If you have no alarm, there should be no issue to put your Fluke MM in series with the negative to earth and then look at your drain current.
Regards Phil
Totally agree Phil so bought an Optimate 2 to make sure the battery was 100% - only took 3hrs to get to a green light. Going to leave it on charge over night then start eliminating tomorrow with current draw when ignition is off. Got a sick feeling it's the starter though!
HeavyHustler - yup! Trust me, these terminals are tight. Any spare doughnuts going, chuck them my way!
Cheers for the help fellas :thumbsup
Update your profile too, where are you?. Updating your profile has been scientifically shown to improve responses, maybe.....
Quote from: London_Phil on November 30, 2013, 10:55:53 PM
Update your profile too, where are you?. Updating your profile has been scientifically shown to improve responses, maybe.....
:ImaPoser
Quote from: London_Phil on November 30, 2013, 10:55:53 PM
Update your profile too, where are you?. Updating your profile has been scientifically shown to improve responses, maybe.....
Done sir :icon_mrgreen:
Hopefully these potential replies could possibly assist in my attempt to maybe have a shot at fixing this issue. Second thoughts.........................
:thumbsup
When you said 3 hrs to a full charge, was that from not turning condition and disconnected from the loom. If so that's pretty good and I would say you haven't managed to kill it :nod yet.
It all comes back to the first reply though, and will take no more than five minutes to understand exactly where you are. Turn everything off. Disconnect the battery +ve lead, set your multimeter to Amps in a range that will read up to 30 amps (that's to protect the meter but to be fair, if you were drawing 30 amps with everything off, you'd kinda know about it) connect the red multimeter lead to the battery +ve and the black multimeter lead to the red bike battery cable. It should read zero amps. Click the setting on the multimeter down to it's most sensitive setting in stages until you are at the most sensitive. You should still have a reading of zero. Anything else is a leak. If you have a leak then the fun part starts, ie finding it.
Quote from: Bixxer Bob on December 01, 2013, 06:40:53 PM
It all comes back to the first reply though, and will take no more than five minutes to understand exactly where you are. Turn everything off. Disconnect the battery +ve lead, set your multimeter to Amps in a range that will read up to 30 amps (that's to protect the meter but to be fair, if you were drawing 30 amps with everything off, you'd kinda know about it) connect the red multimeter lead to the battery +ve and the black multimeter lead to the red bike battery cable. It should read zero amps. Click the setting on the multimeter down to it's most sensitive setting in stages until you are at the most sensitive. You should still have a reading of zero. Anything else is a leak. If you have a leak then the fun part starts, ie finding it.
All checked yesterday, just wanted a known good battery to start with. 3hrs to a green light is damm good.
Set my Fluke on 10A range to start (just in case) = no drain (meter in series). On 400mA range = 0.002ADC.....no drain!
Checked starter switch impedance - all good. Checked starter relay contact impedance - all good.
Looking sadly like my starter motor, but didn't have time to strip it all down.
Question is - do i punt for a starter strip down and clean, a 2nd hand starter off Fleabay (as good as any 2nd hand one for guarantee) or a new one at £460 http://www.worldoftriumph.com/triumph_motorcycle_parts_locator.php?block_01=&block_02=304255&block_03=23773 unless I can find cheaper.
Forgot to mention on previous posts that when it has failed to start with very slow crank speed, the lights are 100% as are the grips so plenty of juice available.
Anything I've missed - apart from a shite termination of +ve or earth at the starter ???
I'd be interested to know if there was any voltage drop across the starter relay during cranking, but sounds more like starter, and to be honest, you can get a 2nd hand starter for less than £50, Its got to be worth a try.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1992-Triumph-Trophy-3-900cc-with-29-971-Miles-Starter-Motor-/190967768357?pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts_13&hash=item2c7690e525
surely it would be best to try stripping and cleaning starter 1st as its free, but maybe have to replace brushes?
Quote from: ram33 on December 02, 2013, 10:40:12 AM
surely it wouldBeethovene best to try stripping and cleaning starter 1st as its free, but maybe have to replace brushes?
Ditto!
Quote from: Bixxer Bob on December 02, 2013, 01:06:56 PM
Quote from: ram33 on December 02, 2013, 10:40:12 AM
surely it wouldBeethovene best to try stripping and cleaning starter 1st as its free, but maybe have to replace brushes?
Ditto!
I agree...but it all comes down to time. If I buy a Fleabay one for £50 then its a straight tank/carbs off, replace starter and refit - reckon 3 hrs tops.
If I remove starter then strip, inspect and clean only to find I need new brushes (3 day delivery) or its knackered, then i'm stuck with my backup bike (Fazer 600 without heated grips, guards etc) for a while due to commitments.
Going to punt for a Fleabayer and then strip the old one down after. If it can be refurbed/cleaned/re-brushed then I just need to find another 3hr slot to fit a known good one.
Will keep you posted.
Cheers for all the advice fellas, much appreciated.
Find your nearest auto electrical workshop and give them a call with as much details as you can lay your hands on. If you get one that dies the work on site you should able to get it done next day. You often find that stuff like this being not run of the Mill and skewing a bit of enthusiasm they will make the extra effort.
Take it out and have a look, there's not that much to them that a decent lecky can't fix. Even if it comes down to skimming the commutator and undercutting the elements, it's not even Rocket III science, I've never come across a small starter burning the windings.
You might also look for a Nippon Denso dealer. My buddy got a brand new starter for less than $100 US. His old one would have needed the commutator skimmed, as it was thoroughly covered with a burnt-on film, and it would have needed undercutting as well, as the contact pads were very worn down. Getting it out was kind of a fussy job, and were it my hours, I'd spring for a new one if I could find it cheaply enough. His was dodgy from the get-go with 5800 miles on the bike, so I wouldn't put much faith in low miles on a used starter as a guarantee of anything.
For £26 delivered.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TRIUMPH-900-STARTER-MOTOR-1280000-8630-BENCH-TESTED-/321265925725?pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts_13&hash=item4accf0fe5d
Cheers for that Phil, cheapest I've seen is £50 ish. £26 including postage???? Is that too cheap?
Go On, you know you want to, just press the little blue box, and the treasure is yours... :nod
Quote from: London_Phil on December 03, 2013, 08:11:40 PM
Go On, you know you want to, just press the little blue box, and the treasure is yours... :nod
:BangHead Just couldn't do it Phil..........way too cheap including postage! Didn't look right.
Phoned around a few local bike mechanics and found a guy who works part time for the local main Triumph dealer (was a full time engineer there for years) - also runs his own setup and specialises in Triuymphs :icon_mrgreen:
Cracking bloke and yup...he had a starter in his spares stockpile of gold dust, sprinkled with fairy dust and guaranteed good. Fella only wanted £20. Had a good chat with him about symptoms and checks I'd already done - he reckoned 90% chance it was the starter so one happy bunny with a fairy dust starter :qgreenjumpers
Should have it fitted by tomorrow night. Will let you know outcome.
Aaaaaaaaaand that friggin little blue button has got me into a lot of trouble with the misses Phil......"Why the hell do you need that?"..........."Don't
need it yet.....just wanted it lol"
Did the replacement starter fix it?
Yup, new starter sorted all issues - sweet as a nut now :wheel
Cheers for the advice fellas :thumbsup
Glad its sorted, and you found a local specialist as well. Win Win..
:eusa_clap