Hi Guys, I purchased a very very cheap 1998 Tiger and I plan to document my restoration progress here.
She was a non runner when I brought her, I feared the DAR or thingy clutch had gone as she was DEAD. The guy I got it off was lovely, slipped a disk so was unable to ride anymore, so I promised to give her some love and attention :icon_mrgreen:
List of what was wrong:
* Clutch felt like shaking hands with the dead
* Didn't start
* Paint cracking
* Loose wires (turns out it's the clock)
* General Shabbyness
So, I hired my favorite bike shop to move her, took her home, changed the oil, checked the fluids, charged the battery, bled the clutch (after removing the copious amounts of gunk :bug_eye), got a bottle of quick start, fresh petrol and VROOM! She's golden! But not perfect...
What's Fixed:
* Clutch now feels firm and positive
* Starts on the button
Problems found after starting her:
* She revs fine up to 4k rpm then bogs and dies, I guess the main jet is clogged from sitting for ages, I shall rebuild her, stronger, better!
* Choke seems to make her rev too high, i'll see how this is after I clean the jets
What I plan to do:
* Drill the main jet out to stop her running so lean as I hear this is a good mod for the Keihin carbs.
* Check the fuel line, tank vent & petcock as this may be the problem also
* Balance the carbs using one of those mercury level jobbies
* Replace or more likely clean the air filter
* See about respraying the engine and sorting out the rust
The battery is pretty much shot I found after putting her on a very expensive battery charger for my boat at 2A, needs replacing so I got my hairdresser to jump her. :bad
Sorry for the long post! If anybody wants more info or would like to offer me any advise please feel free to contact me via PM!
Interesting side note, I think she's french of spanish, the asbestos warning sticker is french, the rims are spanish, it has spanish peso as washers for the bolt on screen and it's in kilometers, which means I was sold a bike that supposedly did 51k miles, but in reality that's kilometers, cashback!
http://youtu.be/uSKljpR5ZHM
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-pJ0W7sBkumc/U1PXrq0_tXI/AAAAAAAAAi8/T-05U4-kw7E/w288-h512-no/WP_20140417_002.jpg)
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-J5b3wapFVEA/U1PXtZwidTI/AAAAAAAAAjE/Eail-Fzxsyc/w913-h513-no/WP_20140417_003.jpg)
welcome to the world of steamers :thumbsup tidt lookin bike ya have there too and pesos for washers, aint heard that one before.
heres a link to my rebuild. http://www.tigertriple.com/forum/index.php/topic,7427.0.html its not the only one on here either http://www.tigertriple.com/forum/index.php/topic,10288.0.html have a search and youll find some more. :wheel
Thanks Rybes!
Let me start by apologizing in advance, I shall be asking you lots of questions!! :icon_mrgreen:
Well.. I probably won't have to because your build log looks very informative!
Very handy those old peso's, having a hole in the middle makes them perfect low denomination washers, I bet half of the bikes out here in spain are held together with them :bug_eye
no probs josh :icon_smile: ask away
Ok, today was a ball-ache! My mission to clean the carbs.
I removed carbs, it was as much of a pain as everyone says it is! But being pre-warned it took away the frustration a little.
The first thing I noticed about the carbs were the slides were coated in a thin layer of slimy yellow petrol which was a running theme, after removing the top of the slides (technical term obviously :icon_mrgreen:) I noticed that they had small amounts of debris and looks a bit yucky so I blasted that out with brake cleaner as carb cleaner is impossible to find here! On the carb to the far left of the bike the spring had been bent and was all crooked from where I assume someone had tried to do something or another.
The float bowls... one of the covers had a stripped screw, the same one that had the crooked spring! Grr, I hate whichever previous owner did that now! I took the two I could apart, and they had lots of rust debris and gunk, it was pretty yuck! Flushed that all out, took out the main jets and the emulsion tubes, the majority of the holes in the emulsion tubes were blocked taking them to the sun light so I cleaned them out with the brake cleaner and copper wire then re-installed.
So, how best remove a stripped screw from the float bowl? I am thinking dremmel a groove then use my impact driver, also, where's the cheapest place for a new slide spring? They're about £9 on eBay!
Aside from what I mentioned above, I shot a load of cleaner into the various ports etc and gave it a good old blow through, lots of yellowy gunk came out, next weekend or maybe the following few days after work i'll get it all reinstalled and fire her up to see if she works better.
When using brake cleaner which is virtually acetone, it's important to remember to let it all evaporate or it may cause the rubber to degrade.
(http://i58.tinypic.com/34pbeo9.jpg)
The easiest way to remove the carbs was to remove the middle section bit of the air box them pull the carbs off the engine, the jubilee clips holding it on were a right PITA to get to! But it came of alright.
(http://i61.tinypic.com/jg723d.jpg)
Draining all that nasty old fuel, my friend gladly took it off my hands for his car.
(http://i61.tinypic.com/2cdd4wk.jpg)
Cut a nice slot so you can get a flat blade screwdriver on it. Those screws can be a pain :icon_evil: Replace with cap-screws. Nice colour :thumbsup
Yep! My plan is to cut a slot with the dremmel and get the impact driver on it, I am also going to soak it in ACF50 & I hear putting a torch to it can help unstick the corrosion.
Plan of action:
1. ACF50 soak for a few days
2. heat & quickly apply ACF50 to penetrate,
3. Cut a slot
4. Impact drive it loose.
Josh,
I've got a '98 with Keihins, when I got mine back up and running after 3 years in the garage, I delved into the carbs and found it had #38 pilots and #98 main jets.
After looking at Mustangs posts I ordered some #40's & #105's from allens performance. Also put a couple of brass washers under the jet needle to lift them up a bit. With the aftermarket cans I fitted it makes the bike run a lot better.
The other thing I found out was that the float heights are different from that quoted in my haynes manual. The keihins are used on some kawasaki's and all the info I could get suggested the float height should be set at 17mm, the haynes manual states 14mm. Again once I'd altered them to 17mm it ran a bit crisper and the throttle response seemed better.
Gav
Not sure if you have a Machine Mart in Guernsey but they do a nice little "Easyout" tool for backing out chewed screws, don't let the Dremel slip :icon_redface:
I decided to take my carbs to the shop and have then do it, peace of mind and ill have then back for the weekend hopefully! Plus it saves me having to extract that horrid screw
Didn't like the thought of you using an impact on the carbs. After reading a post somewhere(think it was one of Mustangs?), I fitted 42.5 pilots. Does give slightly better low-end throttle response.
whats next on your list of to dos ?
Next up is to bump my riders policy up from a 250cc max to a 900cc max, that will be £500 a year as i am 25! I get the carbs back tomorrow i'll fit them on and take her for a test ride! I almost feel like i'm breaking the law taking a bike that big out given I havn't passed my test yet, but it's perfectly legal after your CBT to ride anything so long as you have L plates, i've even seen a Hayabusa with L plates!
I will be rebuilding the front brakes over the weekend and see where I go from there, I mainly want to get her safe enough to ride to see what comes out of the wood works.
In the long run it will be a respray, fork rebuild, shock rebuild if possible, smaller wind deflector, aux circuit for accessories, GPS mount and more.
I am considering lots of options on styling, but l want to get a feel for her before i take her in a direction. I would like to respray her at some point, but i'd like to source some stickers before I do so, i've always liked champagne gold on bikes or Audi silver.
The shop I brought my carbs into, I gave them the default carb settings and the recommended ones from this forum and he'll phone me up tomorrow to see what they can do and what I want, i'm looking at £100 for the rebuild.. which seems steep to me, but two hours labour and a few hours soak in an ultrasonic cleaner I guess plus parts seems to be about right.
That's quite reasonable but you'll have to figure on parts as well :augie
That is including parts, I need a new slide spring, but the diaphragms are good and the other rubbers look good.
The new parts are going to be new jets + a slide spring + anything else the find, but I can imagine it'll be fine.
I think i've decided on a colour, i'm thinking a cargo pants sorta sandy khaki colour but in a high gloss as opposed to the matt you'd expect, and i'd like to do that over a base coat of a slightly darker colour and then do a trick where you put cling film over the wet top coat, pull it off and you get a marbling effect where it clings and comes off to get it a marbly camo effect but subtle and glossy so it's a smart finish with a hint of utility which I think sums up these bikes.
i like the sound of that. once i got the rest of the bodywork i need ill be gettin mine done like this (http://i995.photobucket.com/albums/af76/IM_Rybes/tiger3_zps920c6c0f.jpg) (http://s995.photobucket.com/user/IM_Rybes/media/tiger3_zps920c6c0f.jpg.html)
There is a guy on youtube that does bike spraying i think his name is bigbandit, he does a load of trick paint jobs, mablijg, flip paint etc, he's got some good ideas. He's the one that does the marbling on candy paint with clingfilm
on the phone now, so csnt really post it.
Quote from: rybes on April 24, 2014, 05:34:22 PM
i like the sound of that. once i got the rest of the bodywork i need ill be gettin mine done like this (http://i995.photobucket.com/albums/af76/IM_Rybes/tiger3_zps920c6c0f.jpg) (http://s995.photobucket.com/user/IM_Rybes/media/tiger3_zps920c6c0f.jpg.html)
I like that - nice choice rybes... don't forget the big fat cigar too :icon_biggrin:
Quote from: JayDub on April 24, 2014, 08:53:42 PM
I like that - nice choice rybes... don't forget the big fat cigar too :icon_biggrin:
cheers mate but itll be an ecig. i dont smoke anymore :thumbsup
Re: rebuilding ...
Feel free to look around beyond Triumph Genuine Parts for your work. My brake calliper seals & pads came from a Honda dealer, 1100 Shadow I think. Kawasaki valve shims. Should be similar for all the Japanese parts used on the Steamers.
My 95 has about 130,00 very rough gravel& coarse pavement kilometres on it. Baby it & you should be grinning for years to come. Some of my riding is available at http://fishnbiker.smugmug.com/Motorcycles (http://fishnbiker.smugmug.com/Motorcycles). I hope yours is as engaging as mine has been
I was rather hoping to have more to say here, but it's going to be a further week and a half till I get my carbs back!
I've applied some rust treatment, the stuff that uses tanic acid to parts of the frame that have light surface rust, seems to black it up nicely and I am happy knowing it's got some protection. I'll give it a lick of matt black on the affected areas.
She's got a new high capacity battery, the biggest I could fit in incase I want to run more lights or accessories.
So, yeah.
Decided i'm just going to paint her matt sandy khaki.
the size of the battery means nothing btw
the bike has a 25 amp alternator that makes 300 watts period that's it :augie
doesn't matter how big your battery is
I appreciate what you're saying, while riding along under normal loads the size of the battery means nothing as anything over what the alternator can crank out is still going to drain the battery the only difference being how long it will take.
The difference is when you've had your ipad on charge in the pannier power port over night and you're having a hard time getting her to start, or if you stopped and listened to the radio for a few hours.
Granted none of this is great for a motorcycle battery as they aren't deep cycle, but for the sake of £5 i'm getting the bigger battery with thicker plates and better build with more amp hours as for an extra £2 a year you'd be silly not to.
While you have her bare, have a good look around the sub frame top rails, near where the cross brace is connected, for cracks :icon_wink:
I checked the frame for integrity while spotting rust, it all looks good minus a rusty rear brake support bar and a bit of rust on the frame that holds the front platics.
So I am happy to report that the only crack on the bike will probably appear between my belt and jacket :pottytrain2
:ImaPoser glad to hear that, those front sub frames I swear were rusty when they painted them :icon_rolleyes:
Got my carbs back! Three new springs, all new main jets, gasket seals etc + labour, £107. I am quite happy with that.
Fitting them tomorrow! I feel like the rookie that finally found the "long weight".
Yup, I think you got off very lightly, if you'd needed slides or anything that was "BST" specific, you'd have been looking at a lot more. Double check everything before you put them back in, pilot jets clear, spring + washer + O ring on the idle mixture screw in the right order, float heights, O rings under the caps at the vacumn tap off, inter connection linkage and springs all in the right place, inlet T between carbs in the right place, filter removed from the inlet T (or cleaned and put back as you prefer). Worth taking the time, it's really depressing to build everything back up and find you've missed something simple :BangHead
I gave the specs I wanted for everything from the shop, it's all built up now so I don't want to fudge with them. If they don't work straight away i'll push my bike the 15 - 20ft to the nearest motorcycle repair and be a noob :)
Didn't start, nothing, no pops, no firing or anything, just turned over.
I'm going to pull them out again tomorrow and make sure everything is adjusted correctly.
Do some basic checks first. Fuel getting to carbs? Try opening drain screws.Even if carbs were out of sinc etc, I would think you'd expect it to try fire up?? Nothing at all sounds to me either no fuel or spark?
Yeah, I drained the bowls for carbs 1 & 3 and they had fuel.
I am a little concerned their is no spark, so i'll test for that tomorrow.
I believe they're just not getting enough fuel.
Make sure you have a decent size car battery jumped on to the bike. The last thing you want is to knacker the sprag clutch while you're trying to get it going.
Hi Guys
First off, sorry I havn't posted for a while, it's been a pretty crappy month, car needed fixing so that sucked my time and effort and then my uncle was knocked off his goldwing and killed by a negligent driver that pulled out infront of him, so I havn't been much in the mood or had much spare time to start on the Triumph.
But, I took today and tomorrow off work, fitted everything back together, primed the carbs, hooked up the MX5 (Miata) battery, generous squirt of quick start and she started on the button, although idling so high it was seriously concerning me.
Tomorrow I decided i'm going to pop the stock jets back in, set it up factory and see if that'll give me any joy then move onto the bigger jets and shim the needles.
Not this weekend but the next I am going to get the spray booth set up and i'm going to spray it with rustoleum. Why rustoleum? Because living on a small island you need crazy difficult to get permits to ship dangerous liquids in and nowhere sells automotive paint or anything like it, so rustoleum is literally all I can get.
Cheers
Ride safe!
Sorry to hear that it's been a tough time for you.
I well know your problem sipping DG's, always thought it strange that petrol get shipped without so much trouble :augie
Yep! Side note... They have a nice little gig going on with petrol and other fuels here, we have less tax on fuels than the UK or a lot of other jurisdictions, even less for marine fuel. We ship it from the UK to here, where everyone with Luxury yachts comes here from the UK, Russia, S.O. France etc and fills their tanks to the brim because it's a nice little loophole.
Help!
I managed to get the steamer to start and run "OK" I tried several times with the larger 105 I believe jets and turning the pilot screws on the underside out to 1 and 3/4 turns and it starts great without the choke.
What I need to know is:
* Idle thumb screw, I see it adjusts the minimum throttle position, what should this be set to by default, closed or a bit open?
* When I give it some throttle it revs high and takes a good few seconds to go down, what causes this?
* Idles between 2 and 1.5krpm with the idle screw turned a little, but then it goes down and dies
* Just had an earthquake as I was writing this! 4.6 mag!
* Should I try putting the idle to 2 turns?
* I'll pop to B&Q tomorrow for some washers to shim the needles, 1mm is alright?
Any suggestions would be great!
every bike is different when it comes to jetting ........
for example I have 2 1998 Tigers with Keihin Carbs
tigger 2 likes , I mean absolutely loves 105 main jets and #38 pilots with the mixture screws set at 2 turns needles shimmed approx 1mm and stock air filter and cans
tigger 3 with this setup hates it ..........runs ok but blows soot out the pipes when giving her some . WTF these 2 bikes are Identical , so much so that if you close your eyes you don't know which is which .
tigger 3 wants 102.5 main jets #38 pilots and mixture screws set at 1 1/4 turns with no shims under the needles and this is with a K&N filter . stock exhaust cans
so as you see there is no magic recipe for any one bike , it's trial and error until you get it right .
I feared it would be trial and error :(
Oh well, it's just a pain to take them out every time, but i'm getting really good at getting the throttle and choke cable nubbins in and out!
My main issue is with it revving high and not coming down, and sometimes idling too low, i'll pop to the shop tomorrow and get some washers and see if I can make it more responsive and stable.
I also need to build a manometer.
I'll post an update tomorrow! I am not insured for any bike up to 900cc so hopefully that's incentive enough to get her running.
Cheers for the help!
Quote from: Joshorilla on July 11, 2014, 02:15:28 PM
Help!
I managed to get the steamer to start and run "OK" I tried several times with the larger 105 I believe jets and turning the pilot screws on the underside out to 1 and 3/4 turns and it starts great without the choke.
What I need to know is:
* Idle thumb screw, I see it adjusts the minimum throttle position, what should this be set to by default, closed or a bit open?
* When I give it some throttle it revs high and takes a good few seconds to go down, what causes this?
* Idles between 2 and 1.5krpm with the idle screw turned a little, but then it goes down and dies
* Just had an earthquake as I was writing this! 4.6 mag!
* Should I try putting the idle to 2 turns?
* I'll pop to B&Q tomorrow for some washers to shim the needles, 1mm is alright?
Any suggestions would be great!
too lean will make a throttle "hang" and return slow to idle
a "cv" carb (tiger) will do this anyway although not as severe as yours sounds
have you synched the carbs ?
how about valve adjustments
tight intakes can do this also
shimming the needles should have ZERO results on IDLING , needle settings are for mid range and mains are for wide open throttle . although main sizes will play into the midrange settings also
the only thing that controls idle is Pilot jets and mixture screws, are you sure you got the pilot circuit clean in the carbs ?
homemade manometers are useless unless you seriously restrict the vacuum lines itwon't work, trust me been there done that ....................
Quote from: Mustang on July 11, 2014, 03:18:39 PM
every bike is different when it comes to jetting ........
tigger 2 likes , I mean absolutely loves 105 main jets and #38 pilots with the mixture screws set at 2 turns needles shimmed approx 1mm and stock air filter and cans
WTF these 2 bikes are Identical
tigger 3 wants 102.5 main jets #38 pilots and mixture screws set at 1 1/4 turns with no shims under the needles and this is with a K&N filter . stock exhaust cans
As an aside, yes, no two bikes are the same.
But surely in your case the fact that one has a K&N filter is the diff? Interesting that a filter which supposedly flows more air requires a leaner setting for the jets...
Sorry to take the thread off on a tangent.
Ok, I am going to take a serious look at it over the weekend.
I believe the airbox is leaky, that could account for it running lean. The rubber bits between the snorkels seem to be really loose, and the airbox is missing half its screws and the jubilee clips are doing very little.
I don't want to touch the valves till I get the carbs half way decent, and as for balancing the carbs, without a manometer I am at a loss as to how, any suggestions?
Cheers for all the kind help!
@nick, the K&N has nothing to do with it ........................
was the same on OEM filter
you need a Morgan Carb Tune
fix the airbox
check /adjust valves
then synch the carbs
do the carbs last or your just chasing your tail
I'll get my hands on a morgan carbtube!
From the sounds of it, it's running too lean so i'll turn the screws out to 2 turns and work out from there. Fixing the airbox, fine, i need to find more screws as it was missing a load.
Valves i'll need to do more reading, but sure i'll do them, i'll try that after having a little play with the carbs first as I fancy turning the idle out to 2 turns like recommended and seeing what happens, i'll also shim the needles for good measure.
Quote from: Joshorilla on July 12, 2014, 01:20:09 AM
I'll get my hands on a morgan carbtube!
From the sounds of it, it's running too lean so i'll turn the screws out to 2 turns and work out from there. Fixing the airbox, fine, i need to find more screws as it was missing a load.
Valves i'll need to do more reading, but sure i'll do them, i'll try that after having a little play with the carbs first as I fancy turning the idle out to 2 turns like recommended and seeing what happens, i'll also shim the needles for good measure.
i think the screws are air screws?, if so screwing out more would let more in making it weaker not richer
i maybe wrong though and it wouldn't be the first time
Depends where the screw is,
If it's engine side of the carb it controls fuel and screwing out lets in more fuel(richer).
If it's airbox side it controls air and screwing out will let in more air (leaner).
I think
Or is it the other way round :icon_scratch:
Fiddled with the carbs a bit, she now starts on the button, idles nicely around 1krpm, throttle is quick to respond and it rides like a double sprung bed with a rocket tied to the underside!
Valves need doing, sounds a bit tappy at low RPM's, job for next weekend!
Quote from: Joshorilla on July 12, 2014, 01:20:09 AM
I'll get my hands on a morgan carbtune!
You will not regret it.
Ok!
I've been thinking (dangerous).
* The bike is running rich, too rich at 1 & 3/4 turns, so i'll lean her out to two turns and see.
* The carbs need syncing, since the middle cylinder is fixed and the other two are tune-able, after popping her out to 2 turns on the air screw i'll make a manometer out of a couple of hot dog jars (really tall jam jars) then balance 1 to 2 then 3 to 2 then check 1 to 3 to see if we're all go, rinse repeat.
As much as the morgan carbtunes look good, the springs and rods will have slight differences in friction and compression which i've seen by people hooking up one cylinder to the three morgan ports and getting different readings every time! Physically, a liquid vacuum level is far more accurate.
So, how easy is it to get to the two screws to adjust the butterflies with the tank off and bike running from a res tank?
I also need new hose clamps for the carb boots, B&Q I guess it is!
I am also also painting her this weekend and fitting new seat vinyl!!!
She's coming along, pics on the monday.
You need to go to less turns on the screws to lean out the idle mix
Really? I love and hate the internet as for anything you'l find someone for and against, but I trust you Mustang!
I was working on the basis that this being airbox side, and being a tapered needle that screws in to reduce the hole size and out to increase the hole size and given this is an air screw it's letting in more of less air.
Turning it out increases the hole size, allows more air, more air to the same amount of fuel = leaner.
Where have I gone wrong with this logic?
Carbtune worked OK on my tiger,and easy. Placed tank to side of bike and used a length of pipe join to fuel line. Adj screws easy to reach with longish Philips. Try doing a zx9r!
I'm not saying they don't work ok threepot! I'm sure they are fine, fast and accurate enough.
I'm just saying that measuring pressure relative to each other is going to be more accurate, and cheaper.
Think of it like standing on three pairs of weighing sales, each scale may be out by a pound or two from each other, so while it's accurate it's not mega accurate, but if you were to build a highly accurate seesaw and counter your weight with an arbitrary small item like sugar cubes, you could tell your weight relative to sugar cubes down to a grain of sugar. It's more effort and it's harder, but it's cheaper and more accurate.
Quote from: Joshorilla on July 17, 2014, 09:08:07 AM
Really? I love and hate the internet as for anything you'l find someone for and against, but I trust you Mustang!
I was working on the basis that this being airbox side, and being a tapered needle that screws in to reduce the hole size and out to increase the hole size and given this is an air screw it's letting in more of less air.
Turning it out increases the hole size, allows more air, more air to the same amount of fuel = leaner.
Where have I gone wrong with this logic?
the needle is engine side of carb not air box side.
The mixture screw controls fuel flow.
That makes more sense! Thanks for the explanation Mustang!
Quote from: Joshorilla on July 17, 2014, 09:20:49 AM
you could tell your weight relative to sugar cubes down to a grain of sugar. It's more effort and it's harder, but it's cheaper and more accurate.
Unless you're diabetic :icon_lol:
Someday you need to treat yourself to a Morgan Carbtune set, trust us, if you are at all mechanically inclined you will use them, sigh in a contented fashion and believe there is a God of engineers :notworthy
Quote from: Joshorilla on July 17, 2014, 09:20:49 AM
I'm just saying that measuring pressure relative to each other is going to be more accurate, and cheaper.
Cheaper for sure. Yes, the Carbtune may not be exactly accurate as to the precise mmHg of vacuum, but it does do a good job of showing the balance of vacuum in each carb.
I was pleasantly surprised at how easy it was to use it.
Yeah i'm sure they're great, but for £70 (inc delivery to Channel Islands) or $190 for our cousins, I really can't justify it over making something for free that does the same thing, but at the cost of taking more of my time and being more effort, as I enjoy making stuff like that, it isn't an issue for me.
And aside from the Tiger I only own twins (er500 and exr250r), and the two bottle manometer seems ideal.
Quote from: Joshorilla on July 17, 2014, 07:05:25 PM
as I enjoy making stuff like that, it isn't an issue for me.
I agree with that. Before I got the Carbtune I used the set up with two lengths of clear plastic hose made into loops with little ball bearings in them. Worked just fine, except you are only able to work on one cylinder at a time as well as the standard one.
Sad new guys :(
No, she's fine and i'm fine.
I had an offer to swap her for a 99 Honda CBR600f, I couldn't refuse!
The new owner plans to take her to the south of france, so I know she'll be going on some great adventures!
A big thanks to everyone for their help, and you never know, I may get myself another in the future!
Good luck with the Honda......... don't get too bored with the uber-reliability! :icon_wink: :icon_wink:
Lets hope so, take care and ride safe.
What a sad ending :Topes