My factory tap was leaking, so I bought a Pingel as a replacement. It has an adapter block that needs to be mounted for the tap itself to screw into. Per instructions, I made sure the mounting area was flat with a file, then applied some Blue Hylomar to both sides of the gasket and mounted the adapter block. Instructions said 8 - 10 foot pounds, which on a plastic tank with threaded inserts concerned me. In any case, I gradually snugged them up until they felt snug, but they weren't tripping the clicker of the torque wrench. I then installed the tap, which was a beast to screw into the block.
Adding a splash of fuel and turning the tank right side up, I saw the adapter block was leaking. Okay, so off with the tap, more careful snugging up until the wrench clicked 8 ft. pounds. Tap back in, and now it really leaks.
Okay, tap back out, adapter block off, and I notice both inserts are about 1/16" above level now, having drawn up and out when I applied the torque.
Since I had to cut the opening a bit larger to accommodate the Pingel, I don't see a stock tap as being an option again without leaking.
So...I am thinking pull the two inserts right out, JB Weld them back in, and then remount and torque the adapter plate to 8 foot pounds, etc.? Any other creative thoughts out there?
Good news and bad. The good news is that I was a dumb ass, and had the damned adapter plate flipped over, thus explaining the tapered threads being a bitch to turn, and the countersunk spots for the tap and the screws letting the gasket draw right up and out.
Good news is I think I can just JB Weld the inserts back in place, and then install it correctly. With the flat side of the plate against the tank side, there should be no way the inserts can pull up and out.
I hate doing dumbass stuff, but that is what happens when you move too fast before looking carefully at something you haven't done before.
Tried a Pingel tap on mine, couldn`t get it to seal properly.
Now left with a tank with an enlarged hole that`s completely useless.
We feel your pain! :icon_frown: :icon_frown:
I got some JB Weld for plastic at Advanced Auto, as the package says it has a higher specified finished strength than the original formula. It still sets up similar to the quick version, but has better fully cured strength. We'll see how it holds.
Since I am using the Pingel tap (with the adapter right side up this time :icon_redface:), I used the adapter itself as a template to be sure the spacing of the inserts would be correct with no undue side load. Using a large nut as a washer allowed me to be sure the inserts did not stick up above the plastic and kept any extra epoxy off the threads. Once it set up for an hour, I unscrewed the bolts and then finished the gaps around the top by dribbling in some additional epoxy until everything looked good and level. Any extra can be filed off tomorrow if need be.
Since the Pingel tap is a separate item from the adapter plate, I am tempted to just epoxy the adapter in place when I bolt it on for a permanent seal. I did buy a sheet of gasket material to make a new gasket if I decide to attach it normally. A bit of Blue Hylomar on each side should seal it just fine if this is what I do. Still thinking of any possible negatives of a permanent attachment.
Here are some pictures of the steps mentioned, in case anyone has to do this themselves at some point:
Cutting the inserts out:
(http://ssevy.smugmug.com/Tiger/i-m2qwzBW/0/X2/20140524_191530-X2.jpg)
Carefully and slowly enlarging the hole:
(http://ssevy.smugmug.com/Tiger/i-M5nVRN3/0/X2/20140524_191547-X2.jpg)
The insert itself:
(http://ssevy.smugmug.com/Tiger/i-3b2Qw86/0/X2/20140524_191627-X2.jpg)
The adapter plate with the inserts attached for proper spacing:
(http://ssevy.smugmug.com/Tiger/i-BJngQmc/0/X2/20140524_193714-X2.jpg)
Mixing the JB Weld:
(http://ssevy.smugmug.com/Tiger/i-sfJw76m/0/X2/20140524_193619-X2.jpg)
The inserts held in place by the adapter anchored in the wet epoxy:
(http://ssevy.smugmug.com/Tiger/i-SwnFGkQ/0/X2/20140524_193741-X2.jpg)
The finished product:
(http://ssevy.smugmug.com/Tiger/i-RfNMTxH/0/X2/20140524_205558-X2.jpg)
Good write up man :notworthy and interesting comment on teh JB Weld.
Ease up on the caffeine intact before working on the Steamer :qgreenjumpers
I wish I could chalk it up to caffeine, but it is just me rushing to get this bike back together for a rally next weekend. Invariably when I rush something, I end up doing it twice, the first time to bodge it up, and the second time to repair whatever I did the first time. Slow and steady is a great theory, but one which I don't always find easy to follow when I am on a schedule.
I guess it's a good thing I didn't choose air traffic controller or working at a nitro glycerin factory as my first career choice :icon_wink:
Interesting info, but the drill picture scares me.
Just so you know what amount of material your working with under the tap assy..
Not a good picture, but I think you can see what could happen
I, too, was cautious about this, but with a variable speed drill and a sharp bit, you are just barely turning the bit to round out the section where the lands lie. All I wanted to create was some additional room around the top part of the insert to provide space for the epoxy and lands to join.
Again, for anyone trying this, it has to be a drill with a slow speed that is barely turning, and the bit cannot be dull, or it will "walk" and not stay centered.
Thanks for the extra word of caution Phil. Sometimes what seems obvious may not be.
Update: The JB Weld for plastic is no good for this repair. I decided to mount the adapter with a gasket as intended, and the two inserts pulled right on out again. The epoxy stuck to the inserts themselves well enough, but just slid out of the tank material once I began to tighten the bolts.
I'm going to use regular JB Weld, and set up the bolts in the adapter plate and just epoxy the whole thing into place so that there is no stress on the inserts. Hopefully, this will seal it once and for all.
There is always a challenge to engineer a connection between two different materials, and anytime plastic is one of them, you have the potential flex and warpage to deal with. I think the fuel was actually leaking from around the junction rather than the original tap itself, as the paint is all lifted. I'm thinking a gentle pass with a sander might level the mounting point on the tank and scuff it a bit, providing better purchase for the epoxy. We'll see how it goes...
The tank material is actually a nylon rather than a thermo plastic. So the bond between the epoxy and the nylon will be purely mechanical rather than some chemical interaction that happens with some combinations of thermoplastic and epoxy.
It's possible your nicely drilled hole was too nice. A good physical key will be what you need I think. A trick I've used before, not on a nylon tank, is to use a thread tap that's on the small side for the hole so that you get just the tips of the tap cutting. e.g. using a 6mm tap in a 5.8mm hole.
I tried JB weld when trying to repair my tap hole, it lasted a couple of months, then turned to goo.
Also tried Permatex 2, that lasted a week.
Still searching for something petrol resistant.
Let us know how you get on.
I used a 2pack epoxy glue bought from one of those £ shops to repair 2 leaking tank threads. Said petrol and oil resistant..still holding for 18months. So this has now put the 'kiss of death on it' :icon_rolleyes:
Here's the install. I'm thinking of getting some of the Caswell sealer I used on my Legend, and mixing a small batch to pour just down in where the petcock is located. It might close off part of the pickup screen, but I'm thinking a solid block of this, maybe 1/8" thick over the exposed areas of the plate and pickup tube on the inside would keep the gasoline from contacting the JB Weld. I know the Caswell is fuel proof. Any thoughts?
(http://ssevy.smugmug.com/Tiger/i-2bGgjkc/0/X2/20140526_134709-X2.jpg)
Belt, braces and a few rivets for good measure :icon_lol: were you a Land Rover owner in a previous life :icon_scratch:
No. but my sister had a Plymouth Cricket, which was even worse!
I think that's the same as what was sold in the UK (Rootes) as a Hillman Avenger (or vengeful as some dubbed them), bizarrely they did a "Sport" version in Yellow with a black stripe over a rear wing a la Starsky & Hutch and it was sold as a "Tiger" model :icon_scratch:
Okay, I've done some research and here's some info that may be useful.
First off, Caswell tells me that sealing the area where the petcock is located should provide a barrier between the fuel and the JB Welded adapter plate. However, he said the ethanol effects on plastic tanks is getting worse, and he would recommend sealing the entire tank to prevent this. Of course, my adapter plate and petcock is now JB Welded in place, so this would require taking them back off. Read on...
I then called JB Weld and described my problem. The friendly young lady said that there are two types of plastic used for fuel tanks, and the standard JB Weld doesn't always stick well. The product to use is called JB Weld PlasticBonder (not to be confused with their PlasticWeld, which is different).
So, I plan to take the petcock back off, hopefully not breaking anything in the process, and then try the PlasticBonder. I am also going to seal the entire interior of the tank to prevent the ethanol issue.
I did get a price on a new tank from Triumph, over $900 in my color but with no decals. The decals are only about $50 a pop, so if I end up ruining this tank, I guess I'll be looking on ebay. Keeping my fingers crossed...
Quote from: ssevy on May 27, 2014, 07:05:59 PM
However, he said the ethanol effects on plastic tanks is getting worse, and he would recommend sealing the entire tank to prevent this.
Oh joy!
Quote from: nickjtc on May 27, 2014, 07:32:55 PM
Quote from: ssevy on May 27, 2014, 07:05:59 PM
However, he said the ethanol effects on plastic tanks is getting worse, and he would recommend sealing the entire tank to prevent this.
Oh joy!
hmmm.. I wonder if my tank which will now live only with Diesel in it... will shrink back to shape? hmmm
Just one question, what did you use to seal the threads where the Pingel tap screws into the adaptor block?
I had trouble with sealing that?
JB Welded the entire thing. Now I wish I had made a few calls first, but it set up so well that I think I am going to run it like this until it begins to leak, and then do the Caswell kit and the new JB Weld.
Quote from: ssevy on May 28, 2014, 12:26:15 AM
JB Welded the entire thing. Now I wish I had made a few calls first, but it set up so well that I think I am going to run it like this until it begins to leak, and then do the Caswell kit and the new JB Weld.
I have a tank on the 96 that had a spinning faring insert . It ended up with a severe gas leak :icon_redface: oops ! you aint the only one that screws up .
I reused the insert and plain ol every day regular JB weld on it and it doesn't leak a drop going on 2 years now .
maybe the stuff they can get in UK is different ?
or depends how much mix you use for the two part epoxy ..........not enough hardener ?
any how if I was a bettin man , I would say you won't have to screw with it .
ever hear of Kreme coat tank liner ....is it the same as the caswell stuff ?
reason I ask is because the nice shiny white liner that you bond to the inside of your tank only stays stuck in place for a year or so then turns into a funky ass balloon floating around inside your gas tank .
Maybe the JB weld is different here in the UK to the USA?
Next plan for my tank is to use an original tap, with an adaptor plate and a gasket made from vitrile rubber, which is supposed to be resistant to fuel etc.
If that fails, i`ll have to use my spare tank and get that re-sprayed, which means more expense i could do without!
Be interested to see how Ssevy gets on with this.
I had read about the Kreme and other brands peeling off, and discovered the Caswell stuff with some research. It has been awesome in my Legend, and it is the only stuff I would ever use. I did such a good job with the JB Weld this time, I think I will just try it as is. I am assuming if it does begin to leak, it will be a small seep at first and not a torrential fail. I have also thought that cutting off the two insert pockets from the outside carefully, and then fabricating an aluminum backing plate to drop inside the tank might be a good answer. Drilled and tapped for the Pingel adapter, it would essentially make a three layer sandwich, with the plastic tank being the center layer. Nothing to pull out or work loose, and would be a better and more solid base for the tap. It wouldn't take much to make one. The careful work would be in getting the two pockets cut out cleanly and leaving enough material to be firmly clamped by the two metal plates.
As i said, the JB weld lasted a couple of months on mine, it didn`t fail all at once, it just went all gooey over time and eventually the fuel seeped through, i noticed the smell of fuel first.
Just keep checking it regularly, you`ll see the difference from hard to soft if it goes off.
Good luck with it. :thumbsup
Quote from: ssevy on May 28, 2014, 01:34:51 AM
I have also thought that cutting off the two insert pockets from the outside carefully, and then fabricating an aluminum backing plate to drop inside the tank might be a good answer.
After seeing photos (think it was London Phil) of a tank that had been cut up the same thought had crossed my mind. As you say, looks easy until you try working inside the tank through the filler neck :BangHead
I have a complete set of red plastics, including a tank, not sure what flavour of red it is, only thing is it's had the microdot treatment. I'll happily swap for a blue set :bad
Well, when I walked into the garage this evening, I was greeted with the smell of fresh gasoline, and sure enough, the JB Weld has started to loosen from the petcock. Just a drip right now, but I did over 400 miles yesterday with it, and maybe all of the road vibrations worked it loose? In any case, I am going to order some of the JB Weld Plastibonder, and carefully remove the petcock and then decide whether to try to make a backing plate. I have the Caswell kit already, and I am thinking that I will remove the Pingel from the mounting block, then mount the block, and then seal over the inside with the Caswell. That way, no fuel should contact the repair. Leaving the 26th for a two week trip, and the perfect running was just too good to be true I guess!
Separation anxiety?
(http://ssevy.smugmug.com/Fishing/i-fDPNwPh/0/X2/20140713_134636-X2.jpg)
maybe better to rough the chrome up with a coarse grinder to give it a better key?
would it be better to try some nitrile rubber between the joints
only £1.85 inc del for 125x125x2 sheet
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NITRILE-OIL-RESISTANT-BLACK-RUBBER-SHEET-VARIOUS-SHEET-SIZES-THICKNESSES-/261366810639?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&var=&hash=item3cdaad080f
Thanks, but that is not for use with petrol.
I am more concerned about the epoxy type than the gasket at this point, as the JB Weld that I just removed was like window putty it had softened so much from the gasoline.
Not something you want to start cutting around, I think...
Quote from: ssevy on July 13, 2014, 10:48:52 PM
Thanks, but that is not for use with petrol.
I am more concerned about the epoxy type than the gasket at this point, as the JB Weld that I just removed was like window putty it had softened so much from the gasoline.
The nitrile rubber IS petrol resistant!
I used some nitrile rubber o-rings on my first attempt at sealing my tap to the tank, only reason it didn`t work out was there wasn`t enough surface left between the tap hole and the outer edge of the tank due to the size of the hole.
Hmmm...it says on the ebay page that it is not for petrol?
I have been searching the internet for several hours. Can anyone confirm that our tanks are polyethylene? The Acerbis site has all of their current tanks made from that.
We should all send letters of complaint to Triumph re: the fuel tank. They didn't get it right,and why don't they sell a replacement at a discounted price?
another piece of nitrile here that says for petrol
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1-5mm-thick-rubber-nitrile-sheet-black-200mm-x-200mm-/181056382593?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item2a27cd2681
or you could use viton
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VITON-RUBBER-SHEET-GRADE-A-100MMSQ-PAD-0-5mm-1mm-2mm-3mm-4mm-5mm-and-6mmthk-/330729783336?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&var=&hash=item4d01080028
Quote from: ssevy on July 14, 2014, 03:03:32 AM
Hmmm...it says on the ebay page that it is not for petrol?
I have been searching the internet for several hours. Can anyone confirm that our tanks are polyethylene? The Acerbis site has all of their current tanks made from that.
i repaired 3 holes in mine with jb weld marine and none seem to have softened at all.
i think the tank is made of polyimide
Here's the reply from JB Weld to an inquiry about which product to use:
"Scott,
Yes, as per your phone conversation with our Customer Service, the Plastic Bonder (50133) is the only product that will work for your application. I would recommend roughening the surface well with a wire brush or sand paper, then cleaning the area with acetone or paint thinner. After that, please follow package instructions and apply.
Thanks for using JB Weld!
Sincerely,
Customer Service
JB Weld"
Update
I found a local body shop that has a nitrogen welder for plastic. They have the correct rod for low temp polyethylene, so we're having a go on Monday morning. We are going to use the original nutserts, but grind off the bases a bit to sink them deeper into the plastic block. One option is to build up the pocket inner circumferences, then use an induction heater attached to the mounting plate and nutserts, gently sinking them into the new plastic. Another option is to install the inserts, then mount the plate normally. A third option is to fill the holes then drill and install helicoils. This was my plan for the JB plastic bonder, but if we are able to weld the plastic, there won't be a dissimilar product filling the holes which might expand or contract at a different rate and accelerate the failure rate.
erate
Impressed, hope it works out, it'll be a serious alternative as tanks get rarer. Fingers crossed.
The plastic welder looks to have done the trick! Leveled the nutserts, added a fresh layer of plastic over the top, then filed it down flat to the top of the nutserts. New gasket and pressure tested with air. No leaks!
total cost was $176.55 including $125.00 in labor and $40.00 in materials.
Happier than a pig in shit!
now keep that POS pingel tap off of there and get an OEM :thumbsup
Agreed, and having seen how little spare plastic around the tap hole, I will never try to enlarge mine for a Pingel or other device. I removed the internal filters on mine, due to fuel starvation, and unless you ride really hard, I cannot believe you need more volume than can be supplied by the OEM tap.
Never get tired of posting these tank photos ....
Quote from: Mustang on July 21, 2014, 05:59:42 PM
now keep that POS pingel tap off of there and get an OEM :thumbsup
Too Late!
Everything looks good, and the Pingel tap is fine. Now I'm going to take it for a spin to see if the heat shields are efficient enough for the $20 Bagman saddlebags that I use on my Legend. The zippers are sporadic, and I use large rubber bands to hold them closed as extra security, but what can you expect for $20?
Next winter I'll buy some real soft luggage for it. In the meantime, here are my Bagmans:
(http://ssevy.smugmug.com/Fishing/i-mchZcfg/0/XL/20140721_142536-XL.jpg)
(http://ssevy.smugmug.com/Fishing/i-8m94ZBx/0/XL/20140721_142556-XL.jpg)
Which aftermarket screen is that on your bike?
"Powerbronze"
Looking good and glad to read the tank stuff can be welded. :iagree with Phil, open the tap into a spare tank and you can drain 5 litres in about 3 mins, even Marquez can't do that :wheel
Quote from: nickjtc on July 21, 2014, 10:51:23 PM
Which aftermarket screen is that on your bike?
powerbronze
http://www.powerbronzeusa.com/906820/818268/---TRIUMPH-TIGER-92-97.model
they work awesome for a nice dead zone of air at helmet level ..................... no buffeting and sore neck after a 6-700 mile day
Okay, just got back and there are no issues with anything melting, so I guess the heat shields are just fine. I have a magnetic tank bag on the Legend, and find it convenient on long trips, but I'll have to do something else for this plastic tank. I think I'll just forget a tank bag for this upcoming trip, and see if I can live without it.
It sure feels good to ride and not worry about gasoline interacting with any kind of adhesives!
Good news with the tank repair, i`ll have to see if i can find anyone local to me in the UK who can do it, although i`ll have to compare prices between a repair or a respray on my spare tank.
As for the tankbag, have you looked at the ring mounted ones?
Ring bolts on to the gas cap ring, the bag fixes on to the ring.
Quote from: rf9rider on July 22, 2014, 01:46:03 AM
Good news with the tank repair, i`ll have to see if i can find anyone local to me in the UK who can do it, although i`ll have to compare prices between a repair or a respray on my spare tank.
As for the tankbag, have you looked at the ring mounted ones?
Ring bolts on to the gas cap ring, the bag fixes on to the ring.
I did look at those. I want all my luggage to be waterproof, so right now I am looking at this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aau3gy2Z9hI
For my other luggage, I have been following these guys' thread on advrider, and I really like what they are doing. Kind of a crowd sourced approach to design. Their "Reckless" bag is still in the early stages of development, but it looks like it will be great. If you scroll down, you'll see where they are at with the design right now:
http://moskoblog.wordpress.com/
Glue some washers on the tank and then the magnetic bag will work.
Wouldn't it have been nice if some metal was integrated into plastic tanks for just this purpose?
If you can get hold of an SW-Motech tank ring and bag, it's an easy mod for the Steamer 5 bolt mount for a man of your skills.
If you were a bit closer I'd lend you one off mine. I've posted up somewhere about this before but if you need photos just ping me.