(http://i592.photobucket.com/albums/tt4/97tiger885/IMG_20140612_162354.jpg)
I have reached the point where the cams have been removed. Only casualties are some cam cap bolts.
How do I remove the shims? And what are the tappets?
I am following the Triumph service manual. The instructions are "Remove the tappets and shims..."
Please don't tell me I should have used Mustang's tool before removing the cams.
A magnet and small screwdriver did the job.
Mustang's tool (or the factory one) are only used to get the shims out when the cams are not going to be removed. As you have discovered.
You can either remove as said above with a small screwdriver,or pull the bucket up with a small magnet,then prize them out. Remember to coat the bucket ,and all contact surfaces with fresh oil when replacing. I'm currently doing them on my Super3. I bought a set of surgical picks,but they are not the best quality,hence the tops could break off and leave a nasty piece of metal under the shim..be careful.
There are no tappets. The valves are opened directly by the camshaft and shims.
Quote from: nickjtc on June 12, 2014, 11:05:31 PM
Mustang's tool (or the factory one) are only used to get the shims out when the cams are not going to be removed.
Is this tool really needed, or like with most other bikes is it possible with pieces of metal bar/screwdrivers etc and some fiddling about?
Tool not needed now the cams are out. Only need it if you only need to change a couple of shims. I bought one,but all my inlets need changing. Easier to take cam out,and you can then check the guides,tensioner etc. But I can use it again to change maybe 1 or 2. Check the Tigers next.
The head is off. One major mistake. We will see if that has any lasting effect.
Here is what the pistons and valves look like. Next step should be....?-
(http://i592.photobucket.com/albums/tt4/97tiger885/Trident%20900/Trident%20Head%20Removal/IMG_20140612_190346.jpg)
-
(http://i592.photobucket.com/albums/tt4/97tiger885/Trident%20900/Trident%20Head%20Removal/IMG_20140612_190340.jpg)
(http://i592.photobucket.com/albums/tt4/97tiger885/Trident%20900/Trident%20Head%20Removal/IMG_20140612_190208.jpg)
(http://i592.photobucket.com/albums/tt4/97tiger885/Trident%20900/Trident%20Head%20Removal/IMG_20140612_190123.jpg)
(http://i592.photobucket.com/albums/tt4/97tiger885/Trident%20900/Trident%20Head%20Removal/IMG_20140612_190104.jpg)
MC has 35000 miles. Is this acceptable carbon buildup?
Do I pull the liners or is there other work to do first?
I'm no expert,but looks a bit of a mess. I'd strip down and give a good clean. Has bike had regular oil changes??
There's loads of stuff on carbon build up on the net. Worth checking out.
make sure to mark the liners so you know which came from where and which way it faced - same with pistons
i would check the piston rings for wear as well cos it looks a bit oily
why did you need to remove the head?
Quote from: ram33 on June 13, 2014, 10:49:41 PM
make sure to mark the liners so you know which came from where and which way it faced - same with pistons
i would check the piston rings for wear as well cos it looks a bit oily
why did you need to remove the head?
The head gasket was leaking coolant. We has a couple of nights with temps below 10F in Jan. A puddle of coolant was setting under the bike both mornings. Started it up. White smoke and seepage. Shut it off and shut it down.
The BMW just went down a week ago, failed seal in the oil/water pump. Cheap fix but 3 running bikes in Jan; 0 now. Decided time to shut down the BMW. Replacing it with a 2012 BMW 650GS. That gives me 1 reliable low maintenance mc for the next several years. Getting tomorrow. Then it is back to getting the Triumph running. The Trident was supposed to be the reliable replacement for the Tiger. Oh, well...
I plan to pay someone to clean the head and valves. Will this require removing the valve guides? And if so, can guides be reused or do I need to replace them? And do the old valves need to go back in place or can they go back anywhere (recognizing there are probably intake and exhaust valves)?
The guide s are not removable or replaceable
The valves NEED to go back in the hole they came out of.
Quote from: 97tiger885 on June 17, 2014, 02:07:18 AM
Replacing it with a 2012 BMW 650GS. That gives me 1 reliable low maintenance mc for the next several years. Getting tomorrow. Then it is back to getting the Triumph running. The Trident was supposed to be the reliable replacement for the Tiger. Oh, well...
I'd recommend trying out a Tiger 800/XC (back to back with the BM if you can) before you push the button on the 650, you might be able to save a few dollars or more in the long run.
You've had some bad luck there but many of us have been down the same road and can share your pain :BangHead
you only need a valve spring compressor to do it yourself
i would also change the valve seals while its stripped for peace of mind
make sure the springs are returned the right way round (tight coils down)
Quote from: Sin_Tiger on June 17, 2014, 10:32:01 AM
I'd recommend trying out a Tiger 800/XC (back to back with the BM if you can) before you push the button on the 650, you might be able to save a few dollars or more in the long run.
You've had some bad luck there but many of us have been down the same road and can share your pain :BangHead
I have ridden the 800s. Very nice, but I wanted smaller and lighter. The best choices were the DR650, the KLR650, the G650GS and the Versys. Luck more than anything dictated the GS. It was available and turnkey. It has the bags and the centerstand. All I need is to copy the keys and wire and mount the GPS.
The Trident/Tiger will be bike number 1 when I get it running. The T/T-650GS will be a good combination for me. The T/T and the Tiger 800 are too similar.
Quote from: ram33 on June 17, 2014, 06:57:59 PM
you only need a valve spring compressor to do it yourself
i would also change the valve seals while its stripped for peace of mind
make sure the springs are returned the right way round (tight coils down)
Removing the valves looks easy enough. Cleaning is my worry. I have no experience there and I don't know anyone who does.
Removing the pistons is my worry. Not sure how to mark them after removal.
I will start all that in a day or two.
Quote from: 97tiger885 on June 18, 2014, 01:51:11 AM
Removing the pistons is my worry. Not sure how to mark them after removal.
I will start all that in a day or two.
paint pen on the top of the piston..... inside
you mean to degrease it?
you could try the dishwasher?
most people just use elbow grease and a blunt scraper. as long as you dont damage the gasket faces you should be fine
Quote from: ram33 on June 18, 2014, 08:40:56 PM
you mean to degrease it?
you could try the dishwasher?
most people just use elbow grease and a blunt scraper. as long as you dont damage the gasket faces you should be fine
I will have to do some research. Maybe I will do it.
I started the cleaning with the gasket face. There is some pitting. Is this within acceptable limits or is it the end of the head?
(http://i592.photobucket.com/albums/tt4/97tiger885/Trident%20900/Trident%20Head%20Removal/IMG_20140703_212242.jpg)
How clean does the gasket face need to be? Here are some more shots.
(http://i592.photobucket.com/albums/tt4/97tiger885/Trident%20900/Trident%20Head%20Removal/IMG_20140703_212132.jpg)
(http://i592.photobucket.com/albums/tt4/97tiger885/Trident%20900/Trident%20Head%20Removal/IMG_20140703_212310.jpg)
id be happy with how clean that was to put back on. just make sure its as smooth as possible. as for the valves, if you have em out clean em up on a bench mounted wire brush thatll be fine. ive done pistons like the too but yoy need to be careful so as not to mark the side and corners of the piston. light touches against the wheel till its clean. then give everythin a real good wash in degreaser and blow it all off with an air gun
if you can get the location dowels out, it would be better to get it on a flat surface and rub it around on some wet&dry or carborundum paste. the pitting should be ok as its not on the liner seal edges - maybe caused by weak antifreeze mixture or wrong type.
i would def take the valves out and clean the up properly and give them a quick regrind on the seats
Thanks for the advice.
I bought a valve removal tool. I need to pick up a dental pick and magnet. I plan to remove and clean the valves.
Then it is on to the pistons.
The valves have been removed, cleaned and reinstalled. I did not replace the seals or regrind the seats.
Should I degrease the head before reinstalling? Cleaning would consist of dunking in soapy water and hosing clean. The valves would be in place for this.
Time to move onto the pistons.
why didnt you regrind the seats? it would only take a couple of hours for peace of mind
degrease would depend how dirty it is but make sure the gasket faces are degreased - i used acetone
Quote from: ram33 on July 09, 2014, 08:43:08 PM
why didnt you regrind the seats? it would only take a couple of hours for peace of mind
degrease would depend how dirty it is but make sure the gasket faces are degreased - i used acetone
I have zero experience with that.
Watched a video on lapping valve seats using paste, valve and hand powered lap tool. Will do that prior to reassembly.
How do I get the cylinder liners out?
Can I tap them with a hammer and wooden block?
If you try turning the engine the liners should lift with the drag on the piston rings, that'll give you enough edge at the top of the liner to get a grip on it and pull it the rest of the way. Do it in one direction only, slowly and pay particular attention to the loose piston/s catching once you have one or more liners out.
And remember to mark their locations. No good comes of mixing pistons and liners, and If I am correct, the middle liner is different physically, so that MUST go back in its original location.
Quote from: London_Phil on July 10, 2014, 11:42:53 AM
And remember to mark their locations. No good comes of mixing pistons and liners, and If I am correct, the middle liner is different physically, so that MUST go back in its original location.
:iagree
stick with sucker on end is fine for lapping. i cut the stick down and mounted it in cordless screwdriver to make it easier/quicker.
i couldnt shift any of my liners so had to make a tool to do it (a bit like this)
http://www.tigertriple.com/forum/index.php/topic,12057.msg89156.html#msg89156.
all my liners looked the same (as far as i remember) make sure you mark which is front as well as position.
hope you kept the valves in correct order as well
Quote from: ram33 on July 10, 2014, 04:02:07 PM
stick with sucker on end is fine for lapping. i cut the stick down and mounted it in cordless screwdriver to make it easier/quicker.
i couldnt shift any of my liners so had to make a tool to do it (a bit like this)
http://www.tigertriple.com/forum/index.php/topic,12057.msg89156.html#msg89156.
all my liners looked the same (as far as i remember) make sure you mark which is front as well as position.
hope you kept the valves in correct order as well
I going to do it by hand the first time. Slower and more frustrating, but more likely not to end in disaster.
I see the basic idea of the puller but have a few questions. Is there an order to pulling the liners? The downward force is through the side blocks to the surface where the liners rest?
I pulled a valve, cleaned it and put it back to avoid mix up. That takes a lot of time, but avoids disaster. Plan to lap the same way.
Thanks for info.
Off to find a 3 inch test plug.
the downward force is onto the gasket face of the block.
doesn't matter which liners you do but make sure to catch the piston so it doesn't knock against the crankcase.
i found the hardest job was removing and replacing the circlips for the gudgeon pins
cordless screwdriver (not drill) is quite slow and if you go to fast the sucker comes off anyway
My first attempt at removing the liners with my homemade puller failed. Exerting pressure pulled the plug out of the liner rather than the liner out of the case
Here is my puller:
(http://i592.photobucket.com/albums/tt4/97tiger885/Trident%20900/Trident%20Head%20Removal/IMG_20140718_200250.jpg)
Here is an example of a successful puller:
(http://i592.photobucket.com/albums/tt4/97tiger885/Trident%20900/Trident%20Head%20Removal/Screenshot_2014-07-10-15-11-03.jpg)
Do I need to buy a ribless plug or do I need to grind off the ribs on mine?
I ordered an Oatey 33422 test plug for 4$. I hope to have better luck with that. No ribs.
i dont think your getting enough friction with the ribs and lip
here is a pic of mine. i also tapped around the liner with a nylon mallet at the same time as pulling as mine were very stuck.
also clean the liner inside with acetone or similar to remove any oil and improve friction
The 33422 should do better.
(http://i592.photobucket.com/albums/tt4/97tiger885/Trident%20900/Trident%20Head%20Removal/Screenshot_2014-07-19-16-59-55.jpg)
Finally progress on removing the cylinders. I have managed to remove one cylinder. The method I used involved PB Blaster, wooden shims, two wide bladed screwdrivers and a home-made puller. First, I filled the area around the cylinder three with PB Blaster. Second, I used the screwdrivers as pry bars on opposite sides of the liner, one front and one back. The shims are used to protect the aluminum from damage by the prying. I eventually got the liner to rock back and forth just a bit. I kept working it back and forth a few hundrd times until it broke loose. At this point the liner was about 1/4 inch above the center liner. Finally, I used the puller to separate the liner from the piston.
Two more to go..
Patience :notworthy
I'd have broken something by now :augie
which one have you removed?if the middle one then you can put a jubilee clip around the next cylinder to give you better leverage to pry up with
Unfortunately, it is the brake side liner. Neither of the other two are moving at all with the prying method.
I am trying to be as patient and gentle as possible. Every day I will pry for a few minutes several times a day until I get the liner rocking.
I did mark the top front of the case on the brake side a bit. I plan to be more careful on the other two.
can you see why the one you got off is excessively tight? rust or maybe someone has used the wrong type of sealant in the past?
Quote from: ram33 on September 10, 2014, 09:30:04 PM
can you see why the one you got off is excessively tight? rust or maybe someone has used the wrong type of sealant in the past?
Good question. I don't know. Need to think about that.
Meanwhile, my expensive education continues.
Could you use dry ice to shrink the liners a bit?
Quote from: motoOzarks on September 11, 2014, 11:40:06 PM
Could you use dry ice to shrink the liners a bit?
That was going to be my next method if the screwdrivers failed. Clutch side liner is out. Middle liner is next.
The liners are out, marked, lightly oiled and bagged.
Should I pull the pistons to check them and the rings? I can clean the pistons in place.
well done :eusa_clap
i removed mine just so i could remove some light scoring i had. if you don't need to then i wouldn't bother as i found it quite fiddly to get the circlips in and out (don't forget to put new ones in if you do)
just pack around pistons well so no bits drop inside
Quote from: ram33 on September 14, 2014, 05:15:10 PM
well done :eusa_clap
i removed mine just so i could remove some light scoring i had. if you don't need to then i wouldn't bother as i found it quite fiddly to get the circlips in and out (don't forget to put new ones in if you do)
just pack around pistons well so no bits drop inside
One vote for no. I like it.
The pistons are clean enough.
(http://i592.photobucket.com/albums/tt4/97tiger885/Trident%20900/Trident%20Head%20Removal/IMG_20140916_184609.jpg)
Next is getting the rings set in the proper positions.
(http://i592.photobucket.com/albums/tt4/97tiger885/Trident%20900/Trident%20Head%20Removal/IMG_20140916_184722.jpg)
Getting both 3s and 4 set wasn't happening. So, I pulled rings one and two to make it easier. Here is what I found.
This is ring 2 with the marked edge up. It reads 2NPR? 2NFR? The mark was up in the second grovve.
(http://i592.photobucket.com/albums/tt4/97tiger885/Trident%20900/Trident%20Head%20Removal/IMG_20140916_185917.jpg)
Here is another photo of ring 2. This is top side up.
(http://i592.photobucket.com/albums/tt4/97tiger885/Trident%20900/Trident%20Head%20Removal/IMG_20140916_185923.jpg)
Here is ring 1. No mark. This was the bottom side in the groove.
(http://i592.photobucket.com/albums/tt4/97tiger885/Trident%20900/Trident%20Head%20Removal/IMG_20140916_185953.jpg)
Here is the top side of ring 1. No mark. This is suposed to be marked and have a chamfered edge. Can anybody see the chamfering? I can talk myself into seeing it if I stare at long enough. Should the chafered edge be obvious or is it very slight? I even used a magnifying glass. No help.
(http://i592.photobucket.com/albums/tt4/97tiger885/Trident%20900/Trident%20Head%20Removal/IMG_20140916_190011.jpg)
Any thoughts here? Should I buy rings just to be sure? Are these replacement rings proving the head has been off previously?
must admit i didn't put the rings in the positions shown as i already had head back on before i read that bit. cant say it seems to make much difference and i would have thought the rings would gradually work there way into other positions anyway
I vote for new rings
why did you take it apart ?
Quote from: Mustang on September 17, 2014, 06:02:10 PM
I vote for new rings
why did you take it apart ?
I was hoping you would have an opinion. Okay, new rings. Any rings in particular? OEM from BikeBandit good enough?
Blown head gasket.
Quote from: 97tiger885 on September 17, 2014, 08:07:20 PM
Quote from: Mustang on September 17, 2014, 06:02:10 PM
I vote for new rings
why did you take it apart ?
I was hoping you would have an opinion. Okay, new rings. Any rings in particular? OEM from BikeBandit good enough?
Blown head gasket.
OEM rings are plenty good .
can you still see cross hatch marks in the cylinder bores ? that's a good thing .
Quote from: Mustang on September 17, 2014, 08:45:41 PM
Quote from: 97tiger885 on September 17, 2014, 08:07:20 PM
Quote from: Mustang on September 17, 2014, 06:02:10 PM
I vote for new rings o
why did you take it apart ?
I was hoping you would have an opinion. Okay, new rings. Any rings in particular? OEM from BikeBandit good enough?
Blown head gasket.
OEM rings are plenty good .
can you still see cross hatch marks in the cylinder bores ? that's a good thing .
OEM it is.
Cross hatching visible on all three:
Cyl 1
(http://i592.photobucket.com/albums/tt4/97tiger885/Trident%20900/Trident%20Head%20Removal/IMG_20140918_124304.jpg)
Cyl 2
(http://i592.photobucket.com/albums/tt4/97tiger885/Trident%20900/Trident%20Head%20Removal/IMG_20140918_124527_1.jpg)
Cyl 3
(http://i592.photobucket.com/albums/tt4/97tiger885/Trident%20900/Trident%20Head%20Removal/IMG_20140918_124729.jpg)
:thumbsup perfect, don't touch them :nod
Quote from: Sin_Tiger on September 19, 2014, 12:46:20 AM
:thumbsup perfect, don't touch them :nod
Good.
Just ordered rings and cam bolts. Be a while for those.
Next up is lapping the valves. Watched a few videos. Doesn't look too hard. Tomorrow lapping tool, grinding compound, oil can and acetone (to clean gasket faces).
Quote from: 97tiger885 on September 19, 2014, 02:10:12 AM
Quote from: Sin_Tiger on September 19, 2014, 12:46:20 AM
:thumbsup perfect, don't touch them :nod
Good.
Just ordered rings and cam bolts. Be a while for those.
Next up is lapping the valves. Watched a few videos. Doesn't look too hard. Tomorrow lapping tool, grinding compound, oil can and acetone (to clean gasket faces).
Do the absolute minimum, contact is good enough, don't try to get a wide band or all the imperfections out, just wasting metal and your time. Keep it moving and don't be tempted to use a drill unless you have an oscillating tool.
Quote from: Sin_Tiger on September 19, 2014, 02:39:34 PM
Do the absolute minimum, contact is good enough, don't try to get a wide band or all the imperfections out, just wasting metal and your time. Keep it moving and don't be tempted to use a drill unless you have an oscillating tool.
Okay. Plan is hand power only. No power tools.
Good video at
http://youtu.be/7GEmuQa3dPY.