As some of you know I picked up a tiger last week, needed bits and pieces doing but seems a sound buy for the money, my mate ride it home for me and I've been tinkering in the workshop with it all week, new clutch cable, front and rear pads, oil and filter change.. Anyway today is the first time I've had chance to ride it, it starts well from cold, idles well and I set off no problem, stopped at lights and the idle dropped to 500, bobbled around a bit then just died, restarted no problem but it seems every time I pull the clutch in the idle seems to settle at around 1000 commence the dying procedure, sometimes it pulls it back but more often than not it dies.
This is my first tiger and I'm still a bit clueless about it at the moment but wondered if anyone has any knowledge of what this could be?
Thanks in advance.
Hit the search button there's War and Piece on here about such.
Don't get too worked up.
ride the bike through a tank of fuel or two.
Make sure you have a good battery with no loss in volts to the computer when starting.
do the above
if it persists then down the alley of checking for vacuum leaks and balancing throttle bodies and at some point the stepper motor will find its way into the conversation.
Couple of things spring to mind.
Did it do that when your mate first rode it home for you?
Does it only happen on the move and when you stop at lights or a junction with the clutch pulled in?
If you snick the bike into neutral and let the clutch out, does the idle rise again?
Quote from: Fentible on October 12, 2015, 08:13:38 PM
Couple of things spring to mind.
Did it do that when your mate first rode it home for you?
Does it only happen on the move and when you stop at lights or a junction with the clutch pulled in?
If you snick the bike into neutral and let the clutch out, does the idle rise again?
Mate said he had no issues at all riding it home (150 miles with a few stops), only gets erratic/dies at junctions and lights regardless of whether clutch pulled or if I get it into neutral.
Only possible thing I can think of that is different is I filled up at Esso, wonder if I've just copped a batch of dodgy fuel?
I'll keep riding it and see what happens.
May have a leaking vacumn pipe, take the tank off and have a look see. It's the one thing you have to learn to do with a Tigger, get it off slowly and carefully the first time after that you'll do it in 15 minutes and it wont faze you, all the service items are then easy to get to.
Quote from: John Stenhouse on October 13, 2015, 11:15:04 AM
May have a leaking vacumn pipe, take the tank off and have a look see. It's the one thing you have to learn to do with a Tigger, get it off slowly and carefully the first time after that you'll do it in 15 minutes and it wont faze you, all the service items are then easy to get to.
That would have been my next question, did you take the tank off?? I had similar symptoms after buying a T595 Daytona. I rode it up to Gateshead from St Albans with the idling issue, only to discover that the seller :BangHead had removed the Scottoiler but left the vacuum feed from the throttle bodies uncapped. I re-sealed it and got instant proper idle.
If you didn't remove the tank , as JS suggests, the vacuum tubes are still worth checking, as does riding to see if the matter improves with use in case it is just something as basic as a batch of dodgy fuel.
With all the info at the touch of a search button I can't believe this thread has got this far.
http://www.tigertriple.com/forum/index.php/topic,13841.0.html
http://www.tigertriple.com/forum/index.php/topic,10903.0.html
http://www.tigertriple.com/forum/index.php/topic,14534.0.html
http://www.tigertriple.com/forum/index.php/topic,14421.0.html
And that is just the tip of the iceberg :icon_lol:
Quote from: Chris Canning on October 13, 2015, 05:37:36 PM
With all the info at the touch of a search button I can't believe this thread has got this far.
http://www.tigertriple.com/forum/index.php/topic,13841.0.html
http://www.tigertriple.com/forum/index.php/topic,10903.0.html
http://www.tigertriple.com/forum/index.php/topic,14534.0.html
http://www.tigertriple.com/forum/index.php/topic,14421.0.html
And that is just the tip of the iceberg :icon_lol:
Thanks for the info Chris, that's the sort of information I was after, I suppose it's easier when you actually know what you're looking for, I tried several different ways of wording the issue but because I don't know what the actual problem was, hence the question, it was difficult to search for anything and lumpy idle in the search just brought up pictures of Wayne Rooney!!
Thanks again :icon_wink:
I agree, lots of information about what it might be :icon_study:, It just might be easier to diagnose from what's actually happened since it was last running well rather than wade through hods of 'what ifs'.
Back in the eighties, I ruined a perfectly good Triumph Stag engine trying to diagnose a problem by reading about its design flaws instead of thinking about what I had been doing prior to the fault. :augie
It's not a case of if's and buts dodgy tick over always takes you back to either the stepper or iffy coil and just to complicate things there's thread of mine somewhere when I thought it was a charging problem and there's plenty on that as well.
But the bottom line is the lad needs to get his train of thought in the right direction the good thing about these bikes they are predictable which is more than can be said for some of Triumphs earlier injected efforts.
Cheers lads, I think next plan of action is whip off the tank to do the plugs and air filter (which was on the agenda anyways) while I'm at it I will check the valve clearances along with balancing the throttle bodies. While I'm there I will check all the pipes for breaks, cracks, just plain missing etc). I've also ordered the cable and will download the TuneECU as I believe there is a program to check the cycle of the Stepper.
I'm no expert when it comes to diagnostics and am aware I can quickly kill the engine if I'm not careful so won't be doing anything without good advice apart from absolute basics!!
Tune ECU!!! That'll be smarter folks than me on here then :icon_scratch:
Some good advice, especially as a few recent issues have been down to "What I did last". think hard about whether you did anything to trigger this, but be aware: I more or less know what I'm doing with these old gals but even mine does stuff like this from time to time and I rarely find anything conclusive.
My quick checks are:
When did I fit the battery and is it in good fettle?
Is it charging ok?
If both of those are positive then I check for leaks, balance the TBs, reflash the map and do the "Adaptation".
Normally that sorts it out. For a while anyway....
Thanks for the info, with the exception of refuelling (which I'm not ruling out as the issue) everything I've done so far has been mechanical, brake pads, clutch cable, oil and filter change. The garage said the bike had been stood a couple of weeks and they had to charge the battery, thought that was a bit crap, they've either had it more than a couple of weeks or a new battery may be a possible requirement. Either way I'll check the charging system anyway.
Re-flashing maps and adaptations are all new to me Bob so I will no doubt be calling on you for assistance at some point. Going to concentrate on checking as said first before delving into ecu's.
Thanks again for responses, all very helpful.
Batteries are cheap and replacing can save a load of time. Even if it's not the cause, it's one of the cheapest to eliminate.
With a bad battery it's a downward spiral; doesn't start, or starts but runs crap. Repeated attempts to start the bike with a weak battery result in the battery volts being so low the ECU can't shut down properly, trims get corrupted, it runs crap and so on.
A battery that can't be charged overloads the charging system and can lead to problems there, although I still believe a lot of the charging system issues are down to the three spade connector having high resistance connections due to poor maintenance.
I should write a wiki on this so we can modify it as we prove theories etc... :icon_rolleyes:
You won't need to reflash to fix your present issue
If the PO said they had to charge your battery then ..........
Suggesting riding through a tank or so of fuel was not intended to get rid of bad fuel. If it was bad fuel it would just run like crap and you would know it. It was suggested so your bikes computer could have the time to start and drive and start again enough times so the computer can set itself where it needs to be.
And on top of all the above the French Sagem fuel injection system is a law unto itself,I run 3 other bike all have aftermarket fuel maps and they run just like the day they were blown into the ECU.
Where as my good old Tiger very often runs depending on how it feels on the day,after 14 years of ownership I'm used to it but God knows what a newbie will make of it :icon_wink:
Do lots of reading and cleaning and do nothing else till you go your head around the situation,but you sure can tie a lot of things down to the 12 minute tune and the stepper motor.
Oh and balancing the throttle bodies.
Quote from: motoOzarks on October 14, 2015, 07:32:26 PM
You won't need to reflash to fix your present issue
If the PO said they had to charge your battery then ..........
Suggesting riding through a tank or so of fuel was not intended to get rid of bad fuel. If it was bad fuel it would just run like crap and you would know it. It was suggested so your bikes computer could have the time to start and drive and start again enough times so the computer can set itself where it needs to be.
Same as I was getting at, although if the battery is suspect, it's not going to get any better until it's replaced.
Talking of which I put a new battery on mine earlier in the year the bike hasn't had to do as much travelling this year and while it started OK it hasn't been great and the lithium on my 660 has been really good so I'll fit one at the end of the winter.
Quote from: Chris Canning on October 13, 2015, 07:17:04 PM
It's not a case of if's and buts dodgy tick over always takes you back to either the stepper or iffy coil
Actually not always Chris, as I pointed out in a previous post I had exactly the same symptoms on a similarly set up T595 and it turned out to be as simple as a leak in the vacuum tubes caused by the previous owner removing the Scottoiler and not plugging the vacuum feed.
Sorry I only got to T595 and switched off probably Triumphs only disaster hole or no hole :icon_wink:
Thankfully Triumph learned their lesson and very quickly hence our 955 in 2001.
:icon_lol: :thumbsup
Thanks a lot for the info guys, I really appreciate it, I'm trying to get out on the bike as much as possible and chew through as many miles as possible and as work will allow, Carbtune is in order and throttle bodies will be getting balanced along with new plugs and air filter as soon as I can. Also I will invest in a new battery, can't do any harm. Looking at a Motorbatt unless anyone any better ideas?
Your comment regarding the Scottoiler interests me also, I have one which is outwardly badly fitted, I.e the delivery tube is poorly fitted and I'm just wondering if the general neglect of this bike has extended to piss poor fitting of parts also?
When the tank comes off for the above I will thoroughly check all the vac tubes for cracks and leaks etc. Do you think it might be best to replace them anyway? Can't do any harm, would you guys use oem or can you recommend any alternatives?
If you decide to replace the vac tubes, most use silicon vac tube with 5mm id. The stubs are 6mm but 5 gives a tighter fit.
Don't be tempted to dismantle the IACV to clean it. You'll need £70 for a new one....
Regarding the Scottoiler, make sure the T piece is well away from the throttle linkage. Just after I bought mine (with SO already fitted) the first time I opened the throttle fully, the T piece got under the cable cam and jammed it open. Clean grundies reqd.
Motobatt is popular, but be aware that when the time comes, they give little warning at the end of their life, they go pretty quickly. Still use them myself though, they discharge a lot more slowly than lead acid if they're stood a while, and they have good cranking power.
Thanks Bob, Motobatt is on order and should be here tomorrow, going to also order fresh vac tube for what it costs, better safe than sorry, lead should also be here tomorrow so plan to download TuneECU ready.
I'm using the bike for work on Saturday and will see how it behaves with the new battery on before proceeding further. Just received the V5 for the bike and the previous owner had it for 3 and a half years so going to try and contact him to see what servicing and maintainance has been done during his ownership as the last stamp in the book is 2011. With all my bikes I always do my own maintainance but also keep a record of it for future owners if I sell on (not that I tend to sell on in recent years).
Thanks again
I've spent a few bob on mine over the years and even coils at £100 a pop take some swallowing but the vacuum tubes even had me saying how much :icon_eek: :ImaPoser
Quote from: Chris Canning on October 15, 2015, 04:16:48 PM
I've spent a few bob on mine over the years and even coils at £100 a pop take some swallowing but the vacuum tubes even had me saying how much :icon_eek: :ImaPoser
Yeah this £1500 bargain of the century is going to quickly become 'alright for the money'!! :icon_smile:
I view the old 955 as a great piece of kit and I spend on mine what ever it takes and over the years it's paid me back ten fold and still does.
I've been errr I think the technical term is dithering between. DVT Multi and an XR for months but you get one of these old triples running as they can and they take some beating.
Got three mates all with multi's and didn't want to follow the herd hence the triple and it's got teething trouble but I'll get there it's early days
Quote from: Snowcat73 on October 15, 2015, 03:08:21 PM
Thanks Bob, Motobatt is on order and should be here tomorrow, going to also order fresh vac tube for what it costs, better safe than sorry, lead should also be here tomorrow so plan to download TuneECU ready.
I'm using the bike for work on Saturday and will see how it behaves with the new battery on before proceeding further. Just received the V5 for the bike and the previous owner had it for 3 and a half years so going to try and contact him to see what servicing and maintainance has been done during his ownership as the last stamp in the book is 2011. With all my bikes I always do my own maintainance but also keep a record of it for future owners if I sell on (not that I tend to sell on in recent years).
Thanks again
Don't forget the Adaptation or 12 minute tune after you fit the battery. If you've an O2 sensor in the exhaust down pipe you do the Adaptation, if not then do the 12MT; both are in the "how to"
Don't dive in to doing the TuneECU thing until you've tried what you described. Doing too much at one time will make it much harder to workout what's going on later. Use TECU to look around by all means but try to resist the temptation to change things.
That's exactly my intention Bob, exhaust the mechanicals before moving to the TuneECU, and even then one step at a time. I'm going to cautiously say I think that new battery, plugs, air filter, tb balance and new vuc pipes should do the trick
:thumbsup
One other word of warning, don't be tempted to reset the TPS in Tune ECU (it seems to be one of those irresistable things that folks just can't help doing) until you've solved this one. I didit thinking it might be the cause. It wasn't. Worse, the sod wouldn't start afterwards. It took ages to coax it into life with judicious use of the throttle and a good ten mile thrash to get it back to anything like normal. I can't recall exactly what I did now but I know if I hadn't had the years playing with my Girly I'd have been in the :Topes
Quote from: Bixxer Bob on October 16, 2015, 02:16:15 PM
Don't forget the Adaptation or 12 minute tune after you fit the battery. If you've an O2 sensor in the exhaust down pipe you do the Adaptation, if not then do the 12MT; both are in the "how to"
Don't dive in to doing the TuneECU thing until you've tried what you described. Doing too much at one time will make it much harder to workout what's going on later. Use TECU to look around by all means but try to resist the temptation to change things.
Hi Bob battery arrived today so just awaiting Carbtune gauge for TB sync then going to look at tune ecu, by the look of it I have sensor in the downpipe, unless this is something that will become clear with TuneECU when I plug it in can I just ask what the 'adaptations' are?
See post three in this thread, it's the clearest I've evr seen it explained.
http://www.tigertriple.com/forum/index.php/topic,14769.0.html
Quote from: John Stenhouse on October 20, 2015, 03:18:11 PM
See post three in this thread, it's the clearest I've evr seen it explained.
http://www.tigertriple.com/forum/index.php/topic,14769.0.html
Thanks for that John, makes things clearer. So the idea is to run the bike up to temp, is this set with the engine running, I assume so otherwise it wouldn't get a reading from the O2 sensor?
Ina word: Yes.
The actual step by step is in the How To section:
http://www.tigertriple.com/forum/index.php/topic,12926.msg94935.html#msg94935
Don't mess with your IACV steps at this point, adjusting them is like tweeking the idle mixture on a carb, see if this solves it first.
If at this point the lambda reading is out is that an adjustment through TuneECU? Sorry if all of these questions sound a bit inane, I'm sure it'll all be one clear once I'm plugged in and am looking at the software doing what it does.
Thanks agai. Bob.
I don't mind questions, especially as I don't have all the answers :icon_lol:
If the O2 reading isn't swinging, then do another Adaptation; no need to use TuneECU to change the settings.
The Adaptation is what the dealer is supposed to do to get the ECU to trim itself based on the sensor readings before he delivers a new bike to a customer. It seems not all of them do, but it's a handy process for resetting trims if you have no other way to do it. If you don't have TuneECU and can't see the O2 swinging, simply repeating the Adaptation process two or three times then going for a ride should get the job done.
I have to say though, especially as this came up in a phone conversation with Chris today, you shouldn't get too hung up on this unless it's really bad. Chris, like myself and a few others on here, are long time Girly owners. Just like the rest of their gender, Girlies have good days and bad days; you never really know how its going to be when you get it out of the garage. Mine runs great most of the time but has the odd off day. No particular reason - maybe just the way it was ridden immediately before putting it away, I don't know. Very often I'll run through the usual service / set up routine and find, when I go for a ride, it's brilliant; but by the time I get home again, it's trimmed itself back to it's more familiar self. It makes me wonder what the "norm" that the ECU is chasing is based on.
I think it's called "Character"..... :icon_rolleyes:
:iagree
strong battery......ride it
I had a f650gs that would sometimes die when I pulled the clutch in to change gears or would stop at a light.
All it took to fix it was to momentarily pause when I turned the key on before cranking to a start.
Fitted the battery and have to say it was immediate to notice the difference in the way the bike cranked over, certainly that's going to improve things. Could be all the fix it needs but I'm not cracking the champers just yet, if only bike ownership was so easy!!
Can't say for my Tiger because I don't think I ever read the owners manual, but I do remember reading in my Blackbird manual that you should turn the key, wait for the ECU to sort itself out and the warning light go out before cranking it. I firmly believe that a lot of issues stem from not giving the ECU time to do its thing, or from the battery voltage not being high enough for it to save the trim values before shutting down.
Cheers for the heads up, could be a little late now, was hoping to get out for a spin tomorrow, heavy rain forecast which didn't bother me but this stinking lurgy I've picked up does, anyway I was wondering, had a set of Carbtune vac gauges on order for a couple of weeks now, still not turned up and think I might have been had but I'll take that up with eBay and PayPal. Anyway was wondering can TuneECU be used to balance TBs? I've seen it can do 1050's but wasn't sure about mine, it needs doing and don't really want to wait another week for gauges if I don't need to
Nope, not possible on a Girly. Get Carbtune direct from supplier: http://www.carbtune.co.uk/
You can leave the balancing for now, just ride it and see.....
Snowcat.....I've reading though this, did you get ironed out, did the battery solve it
No it still has the issue, hoping to get stuck in over the Christmas period, get it stripped down, new vac pipes, throttle balance and tuneecu then see where we are. Will keep everyone posted
Just a quick update for everyone, had a thousand other things to do so not really done anything on the bike but last week I was thinking about the Scotoiller again. I was due to take it for a spin and as if removed most of the rest it, only the reservoir and connection to the vac tube remained, I decided to close the reservoir completely and Bung the end. Whilst the bike was still struggling it didn't actually cut out, thinking about this today I've whipped the tank and airbox off, removed to scotoiller Tee piece and replaced the vac pipes. Couldn't get it up to temp as I was in the confines of the workshop but started it just to make sure I'd put it back together right and it seemed a lot smoother on fast idle, I'm going to get out on it tomorrow and give it a proper test ride but I'm crossing my fingers that I've fixed the issue. P.S any want to buy a Scotoiller? Haha
Mine has had a few hiccups over the last couple of years and I guess the advantage us long term owners have is the patience to sort them because they are great bits of kit when they are right.
What Bix does put in a lot of his posts but maybe it should be in caps is RIDE it and I don't mean a 100 miles down the road they do change,even when my Tiger has been running well and I've decided to have another map put in by a dealer,6 months down the road its a different animal not better or worse just different.
The other 3 bikes I have 2 have PC's and the other a Rexxer map and they run just the same as the day they were set up,my Tiger never has but I live with it because it's been a grand old girl that has seen most of Europe many times over.
The problem I have had my 955 has close on 40,000 mile nearly all but a couple thousand have been done in Europe and as I ride it very little in the UK I have struggled to get some serious miles in since my blip with th stepper and new vac tubes I guess it's done 5/600 miles and it still changes every time I ride it.
I would also keep an eye on the plug/coil mine showed up on Bixs laptop as being just a fraction off and blimey did it make a difference when I changed it.
I write it off as character but I could understand a newbie getting a little ticked off over such trying to get it right.
SUCCESS!!! It would appear that replacing the vac pipes has had the desired effect and the bike no longer cuts out when I stop at junctions etc. Don't get me wrong it isn't perfect yet by any stretch and the idle is still not as steady as I'd like. When the weather improves and I can get the bike outside to work on I'll complete the top end service... Plugs, air filter, balance throttle bodies and run TuneECU through it but for now I'm just going to take every opportunity to ride it.
Thanks for all the help, tips and info chaps, couldn't have done it without you all.
Cheers
Funny thing this; Triumph say DON'T fit a Scottoiler, Clive Woods says if you have one throw it away, and - because mine was on when I got it and I already have one on my Blackbird with no issues - I thought, "Bollocks, I'll just leave it". And left it I did. For 7 yrs.
Then, (thanks again to Sin) I got an E-Scottoiler and threw the vacuum bits away. And now it runs so much better.
Now, given that the Scottoiler vacuum system is a sealed system, it shouldn't affect anything, and one could argue Triumph were just hedging their bets in case they got sued, but clearly it does make a difference. I don't know why :^_^ it just does.
The problem I've found with several Scotoilers is that they weren't fitted properly in the first place. Vacumn hose connected to all three carbs :^_^ bends too tight leading to air leaks, restrictor not fitted etc. etc.
I suppose you might get an oscillation effect with the scottoiler where the air in the tube was acting like a spring.
Quote from: iansoady on January 05, 2016, 02:21:04 PM
I suppose you might get an oscillation effect with the scottoiler where the air in the tube was acting like a spring.
That's one of the effects that the restrictor is supposed to prevent.
The real test of how my Tiger is running??? holding the left bar end between my forfinger and thumb when out riding tells me everything about the fuelling :icon_biggrin:
I have noticed with my tiger is if i am in a rush and jump on the bike, keys in, fire it up and go, I tend to get an iffy idle.
If i go to the bike, put keys in and allow the the fuel pump to time out and then fire it up, it tends to behave it's self.
Another thing i have noticed is try not to blip the throttle when coming to a stop when your downshifting.
You're right about taking your time and I would add when it starts and the tickover goes high, let it have a few seconds to work out what the tickover should be and come down to that. It'll still be higher than when hot but it's an indication that the ECU has read all the sensors and is good to go. As you've found, if you hit start, fire and go, the ECU hasn't got a chance. Given that the reading and sorting itself out, electrically speaking, should only take a fraction of a second, I can only guess that the programmer is playing safe and giving time for the air in the airbox to get moving with a fresh intake of ambient air, the coolant and oil to start to circulate, the IACV stepper motor to respond etc.
Don't we just love theories??? :icon_lol:
well to add to the theory. Yesterday dash out of work, keys in and started bike and rode off. it actually cut out on me as I slowed for a right turn junction.
Today, out of work. put keys in and ignition on. PUT GLOVES ON then pressed start and it fired up. rode home and it never faulted. it idled at bang on 1200. I think it's a little slow so this weekend I am going to tweak the idle speed and few other things.
Also going to put some new cables on the starter and alternator. Anyone want some? Got plently of HD superflex cable. Not seen it for sale recently.
My first 885i lasted 6 weeks before it blew a head gasket very common on that bike and before that had already had the sump off to replace internal engine bolts that had been wrongly plated and the plating was flaking off and blocking the oil ways.
My first came in April 99 the second in the May,MCN organised a factory visit where we got the tour and to meet the design team,even then owners were moaning like F*** about the bikes and how many attempts it took to start and get it running something like,my personnel record was 6 before the bloody thing decided to run properly.
One of the first question we asked the design team was why the tiger wasn't a 955 like the 595 Daytona there was much coughing and shuffling of feet as we were completely unaware of all the hassle they were having with overheating etc,I later found out my local dealer had so many rebuilds the factory ended up helping out.
The bottom line Triumph had started with building 3 cylinder Triples which were nothing more than tried and tested 3 cylinder Kawasakis,their first toe in the serious water of modern day fuel injected bikes was 885i and Triumph learned quickly and hence why they have such a quick revamp with 955.
Not all the bugs were sorted out even then as my 955 is testament too,and ditching the Sagem system for the jap version is where things really turned the corner.
Yea sure there are some good high mileage 885i's but because Triumph was on such a steep learning curve that is more down to luck than the tech of the model,I could write a book about sorting the Ohlins shock on my 955 it has been revalved twice and as I had pointed out to me mainly required because Triumph hadn't got a clue what they were doing with suspension and swing arms.
Have a look at any modern Triumph Tiger and you see the rising rate linkage they have learned quickly.