I've noticed recently,the revs are slow to,or don't drop between gear changes. Bike settles to a nice idle,and runs great otherwise. Could this be a diaphragm issue?
Could be that or jets. Dose the needle flutter when reved
A few possible culprits. I would check the throttle cable first. Then the choke slider before ripping into things.
Quote from: tonytiger on January 17, 2016, 01:40:26 PM
Could be that or jets. Dose the needle flutter when reved
Can't say ive noticed?
Quote from: Sin_Tiger on January 17, 2016, 02:20:09 PM
A few possible culprits. I would check the throttle cable first. Then the choke slider before ripping into things.
I've checked free play on cable,but its been a while since I've lubed it,and carb linkages,so I'll try that :thumbsup
Choke slides don't get a lot of use or attention and I've come across it myself, similar symptoms but it's something that's easier to see and eliminate, which is why I mentioned it.
The inlet rubbers too TP, sounds suspiciously like an air leak :nod
Quote from: JayDub on January 17, 2016, 09:13:03 PM
The inlet rubbers too TP, sounds suspiciously like an air leak :nod
Thought of that,but they were replaced 3 and a bit years ago,when I bought the bike. Worth tightening clamps though?
If it's not popping it's prolly not leaking
I was able to check the diaphragms/slides with the carbs on the bike, careful with those tiny o' rings though :icon_eek:
:icon_scratch: After giving this some considerable thought so as not to rush in with a bogus diagnostic I am inclined to agree. It's carbs related :^_^
Is it fixed yet? What was it?
Well,fitted new plugs,and gave carb assembly a good soaking of Pocket Rocket(like wd40). Cleaned and sprayed all coil connections with Ac50. Bike fired up straight away! I'm convinced the tt600 coil conversion has made a noticable difference in starting? Looking forward to a ride tomorrow :icon_smile: Will let you know if the rev issue is sorted?
Big improvement I'm happy to say! Combination of new plugs and a good soaking of Pocket Rocket..much crisper throttle response low-down . ID noticed that the idle adjuster had stuck a little,so give that a good spraying. I'm sure that effects running if not lubed enough?
That shouldn't affect the running TP, just the tick-over speed adjustment... do the revs drop as they should now?
Tis better,but there is a 'little' hesitation when accelerating off,but its hardly noticeable. Bike still pulls strong! Hey,this bike is 20yr old! Had a great ride today around Llyn Brianne dam earlier,and thought there were not many other bikes I'd rather be on :icon_wink: Even took it off road!
Out for a run today,and that issue with the 'revs' not dropping seems a little worse? Screwing the idle adjuster full out doesn't seem to have any effect. Bike will still idle. Bike still 'pulls' a little after shutting throttle off? Looks like carbs off to investigate? :^_^
I'm still thinking air leak TP, pull the inlet rubbers and check them for cracks... but check the carb balance before you remove anything as it could indicate which carb to focus on? if one carb shows a difference then spray the inlet rubber with WD etc, and see if it changes the reading.
I bought a set of carbs off eBay a while back. Came with a re-build kit. Not sure what they were off? I might just bang them on,and see what happens? :icon_wink:
Head to carb rubbers are my suspects, they have a hard life holding everything together and seen to be made of licorice.
Quote from: Sin_Tiger on January 31, 2016, 01:22:00 AM
Head to carb rubbers are my suspects, they have a hard life holding everything together and seen to be made of licorice.
liquorice would probably do a better job :ImaPoser
Decided today to do some long overdue maintenance,and try to investigate this over-rev issue. Bike has run so well(apart from a bad coil moment) since I've had it,now 3 1/2 yrs,that I felt it time to check filter,and valves. Carbs came off without too much drama! Not checked inside them yet,but look clean? Then I took air filter apart. I'd forgotten I'd fitted a k&n,and what a brilliant job its done!! Filter side was really dirty,and looking thru it,it looks quite blocked? But the engine side of the housing is totally clean! Absolutely no debris,dust etc! Could a blocked filter cause this problem?
Another thing that puzzled, me is a hard,kind of 'rubberised' film on the inlet ports?? :icon_scratch: It does come away if you scratch it with a fingernail,but it does seem stuck well.
A blocked filter would cause air starvation, your problem sounds more the opposite.
the residue in the inlets could be from that carb being set too rich at some point - give them a clean.
what condition are the inlet rubbers in - any cracks or splits
If you look inside the rubbers on the air filter side, there is a band spring to keep the rubbers tight around the hole - going by the pics one of yours looks missing, I doubt it would cause your problem, but you never know with the steamer air intake set-up :icon_rolleyes:
Rubber manifolds cleaned up like 'new' JD. I'm a bit reluctant to clean the ports just incase anything falls into engine? Maybe run thru some Seafoam or the like will clear it? Plugs do look a bit 'sooty' Maybe it has been running a little 'rich'?
New plugs and maybe 1/8 of a turn in TP. the deposits won't harm the motor, It would blow through the exhaust but you could stuff the hoover in there while you scrape if you're worried... it wouldn't matter if you just left it, its not critical to performance... unless you're entering the BSB this year :icon_biggrin:
Diaphragms next! torch and magnifying glass at the ready :thumbsup
Check pilot jet screws are 2 turns out
Check manifold rubbers
Check float height and needle and seat
check diagphram and slide for any tears and free movement.
Check main needle hasn't worn (mikuni carbs the needle tends to vibrate and wear)
Then check that the butterflies are closing properly and opening in concert. Sometimes getting the bike to idle correctly when the pilot jets are not set correctly means the butterflies are slightly open to compensate. This is wrong.
Not sure where in Wales you are but if you need to use a carb balancer give us a chout.
Are you receiving my PM responses because they are not showing up in my sent mail box? If not, bring it back to the board and have a look at this thread and make your own mind up. Good luck
http://www.tigertriple.com/forum/index.php?topic=9930.0
I read in a classic bike magazine about restoring rubber parts by boiling them up in dilute solution of Oil of Wintergreen for a couple of hours. I cannot remember the exact dilution but I do not think that it was too important. They claimed that it worked a treat and restored the rubber flexibility and gloss.
However they did suggest wearing a gas mask or doing it outdoors far away from people and animals as the stink was unbelievable.
FYI
sent messages don't show up unless they are opened by the recipient
Not done much with carbs yet. Been working on shims. All ex seem OK,and a few inlets are just below spec,but they have nice 'fat' shims in,so valves should be in good shape. Also noticed that bike has 'green' cams! STD ones were blue? So either they've been changed,or the engine has? :^_^
Green
Quote from: Mustang on February 04, 2016, 11:38:55 PM
Green
I thought tigers were blue? Green..trident,Sprint?
Plenty of those here :augie
Oh,for a minute there,I thought my 'tigger' was a bit 'special'?! :icon_wink:
Quote from: threepot on February 05, 2016, 01:51:50 PM
Oh,for a minute there,I thought my 'tigger' was a bit 'special'?! :icon_wink:
Aren't they all? :love10
A bit special.
It's not only true of the bikes round here either...
What's your views on re-using the camchain?. If the timing arrows don't align,it's time to change?
Quote from: threepot on February 07, 2016, 08:37:23 PM
What's your views on re-using the camchain?. If the timing arrows don't align,it's time to change?
Theres also the measuring between 20(?) link pins trick, but I don't know the numbers, if its done a decent mileage... and If you're in there anyway? :icon_wink:
Don't know the history of the engine? Just over 60k,valves look in good shape. Ive got to change 5 inlets shims,but only to 2.65. All chain guides look very good. Cam sprocket arrows were out slightly,but tensioner seemed all the way out..hardly any tension when I removed?Seen on eBay..Japanese Morse chain for about £47. So I'm tempted to try it?
Go for it, I did it at 80k but that was pushing it when I saw it.
Yup, :iagree at that mileage it's peace of mind
Drop Clive Woods an Email, he'll be able to advise, although like you say,I'd probably do it anyway, eighty-odd quid is small beer in the greater scheme of things....
:augie
Quote from: Bixxer Bob on February 08, 2016, 11:42:28 AM
Drop Clive Woods an Email, he'll be able to advise, although like you say,I'd probably do it anyway, eighty-odd quid is small beer in the greater scheme of things....
Fitted new chain Bob..Morse brand. And changed 4 inlet shims. All chain blades were in good order. And a new tensioner spring.
I've put a good few hundred miles on since I did that work. Pulls cleaner from low rpm's,but seems to rev higher at speed,as if its not in top gear? The only adjustments I made to the carbs was to reset the idle mix screws to 2 turns out. They were about 3-31/2 ! I've read that k&n's work better when they start to get dirty? I give it a clean before fitting. Too much airflow? :icon_scratch:
Can't say I noticed any great difference.
Unless you changed the gearing, them it's exactly 4,000 rpm @ 60 mph in top as standard. Maybe it's just a happier motor now?
Quote from: threepot on March 13, 2016, 10:34:51 PM
I've put a good few hundred miles on since I did that work. Pulls cleaner from low rpm's,but seems to rev higher at speed,as if its not in top gear? ..........
My brain just BSD'd :cp Can you describe it differently?
Quote from: JayDub on March 13, 2016, 11:24:35 PM
Unless you changed the gearing, them it's exactly 4,000 rpm @ 60 mph in top as standard. Maybe it's just a happier motor now?
If I remember rightly TP has a 3 spoke wheel in the back, so if circumference of the tyre is different from a spoke wheel then revs will change slightly from JD's, but I don't think that'd make too much difference.
You may be imagining things TP. Been smoking dried leeks again?
Got STD wheel on Gav.
BruKen..it just feels its reving higher than it was before I did that work :^_^ As if I've lost about 10/15 mph?
The idle mix screws wouldn't effect 'high' revs would they? They're now 2 turns out.
Carb tinkering cannot change the revs of the engine for any given speed/gear. If you're in top and your revs are higher for a certain speed then you must have changed something mechanical i.e. sprockets, gearbox ratios or circumference of rear wheel.
Quote from: threepot on March 14, 2016, 09:28:21 PM
Got STD wheel on Gav.
BruKen..it just feels its reving higher than it was before I did that work :^_^ As if I've lost about 10/15 mph?
The idle mix screws wouldn't effect 'high' revs would they? They're now 2 turns out.
As said carbs will not change rpm for a given speed. It's simply not possible. You're either not engaging top gear or its in the mind. I'd say mind. The brain does a wonderful task of interpreting incoming stimuli but sometimes gets it wrong. I postulate that the engine is now running lean because its not getting fuel and so you are winding the throttle open more. This exacerbates the issue and starts a chain reaction of more throttle twist. Meanwhile the engine tone changes. The two together makes your brain think higher revs.
Now back to basics. The pilot jet and not idle jet you call it is functional until the pressure wave in the venturi closes it. This should be around 1/3 throttle and so as you can reach cruising speed on one third throttle is still very much in play and so their setting is actually the most crucial setting. Next comes the butterfly valve. Is it engaging correctly and shutting correctly. Are the slides free to move without sticking and without punctures in the diaphragm? Check by blowing in each of the large rear ports per carb. Finally if you've buggered about with jet sizing, airbox mods etc etc. You're on your own. Is the airbox capped on one side? Some people think they know more than the designers and fiddle. Sometimes they get it right, most times they delude themselves. Finally these carbs have a habit of sticking chokes. You cant tune the carbs with the chokes on.
If my postulation is correct I'd suggest you check the carbs are in good order then redo the pilot jet. This can be done ham fisted by running the bike to temp, ensuring idle adjusting screw is tuned out to 800 rpm,and then adjusting each pilot jet individually till the highest rev is reached on each carb/ cylinder. Check with carb balancer and hand held tachometer. After each adjustment wind out the idle rpm adjuster back to 800 rpm. One all is balanced and highest rpm is reached back off a 1/4 turn rich on each pilot jet screw. Wind in the idle adjuster to 800 rpm. Repeat in finer increments. Rebalance carbs. Set idle 800 rpm. However if you've been fiddling with jets etc this wont solve your issue.
Before you do all this check the rubber manifolds and airbox manifolds are good and airtight. Sometimes tightening the jubilee clips cause the carb to slip out. This will definitely cause a lean scenario if its the front manifold and mess up the venturi and slide calibration if airbox side.
Thanks BK,I'll take that 'on board' :thumbsup . I checked diaphragms, and they looked OK. I'm wondering about the kn filter? What effect would it have if it was allowing too much air through,now that it has been cleaned? I took it out of my Super3 before I bought my tiger. I wasn't convinced the s3 ran any better with it in? And one side is capped.
These are pure venturi carbs and with no cable driven slide. They work purely off air pressure and pressure bubbles. So just like a tuned pipe on a two stroke any change in pressure will have a dramatic effect on performance. So critical is this triuph wonts sell you just a filter element. You have to buy a whole airbox. Again some people know better. Kudus to them. I'd not advise it. See previous post re front and rear manifolds. Theyre a right bugger and more often than not also the culprit.
BruKen has given some great suggestions here, and getting your carbs sorted will probably cure it.
I have a couple of suggestions that are definitely out of the box if it doesn't:
If for some reason you are actually revving higher, maybe your clutch is going south? Old fluid may have attracted some water and corrosion might cause sticking?
Are you dragging a brake, which would feel like a lack of power?
Probably neither applicable here, but sometimes random causes can feel like something else?
Quote from: ssevy on March 14, 2016, 11:39:13 PM
BruKen has given some great suggestions here, and getting your carbs sorted will probably cure it.
I have a couple of suggestions that are definitely out of the box if it doesn't:
If for some reason you are actually revving higher, maybe your clutch is going south? Old fluid may have attracted some water and corrosion might cause sticking?
Are you dragging a brake, which would feel like a lack of power?
Probably neither applicable here, but sometimes random causes can feel like something else?
Clutch feels OKand fluid is fresh.,and brakes not binding, Thanks
Quote from: BruKen on March 14, 2016, 11:36:38 PM
These are pure venturi carbs and with no cable driven slide. They work purely off air pressure and pressure bubbles. So just like a tuned pipe on a two stroke any change in pressure will have a dramatic effect on performance. So critical is this triuph wonts sell you just a filter element. You have to buy a whole airbox. Again some people know better. Kudus to them. I'd not advise it. See previous post re front and rear manifolds. Theyre a right bugger and more often than not also the culprit.
Now you've mentioned 'air pressure', could this be the cause?? :icon_confused:
:bug_eye Not a carb man as you all know, but my guess is that would do it.....
The K&N will cause more intake noise.
If you're getting less road speed for the same revs, as Ssevy has already said, clutch. Good feel doesn't mean it isn't slipping with higher load.
I'm working on the assumption that it "feels" not "is" reving higher for a given speed.
Checking for a slipping clutch is easy and unmistakeable. Give it a snatch of welly in high gear.
I'd say that airbox is fubar. Why did you open it anyway. As said previously, it's just a fact of the steamer, air filter changes come with the whole airbox. Anything less and you're on your own.
I don't want to come across high handed, but straying from the design parameters is going to open a whole host of issues that the home DIY mechanic is ill prepared for. And reading about mods/ upgrades etc on the internet and trying them for yourself is all great and well until you get into difficulties. Then you go back to basics. You've got to start from a known good.
Just had a thought about the slipping clutch suggestion. You've done some engine work. Please tell us you changed oil but didn't use the latest and greatest fully synthetic with anti friction additives yadda yadda yadda and especially MOLYBDENUM in the oil to treat your pride and joy? Wet clutches dont like them. Yeah I done that once on a old XT 500 I did up. Paid over the odds for the oil but nothing was too good for Hilda, except maybe the oil. New clutch plates required too. Was mighty peeved. You know what they say about the best of intentions....
Maybe coincidence,but the 'high revs' issue is since I've done the airbox 'mod',as pictured? Thought I'd try it after being assured by guy's on HTOC,that it would be fine? Now I'm not so sure? :icon_scratch: I think ive got a spare housing in the shed somewhere. Or buy a new one? Bike was running fine with the kn before.
As for oil..I'm using Castrol Power ,which I think is a full synth?? But it is 'bike specific',so shouldn't effect clutch?
I'd buy new. No point in being master of the half job now.
Oh well,live and learn :icon_rolleyes: :thumbsup
I can go with that. You should see the trail of destruction in my wake. Unfortunately, or is that fortunately?, as my toys have got bigger and bigger and more expensive I have learnt to trust OEM. Last year the running cost of one toy was reduced to £24.4k for the year over the 46k the previous. But that's a whole different story :icon_lol:
Got my Super3 to sort next! :icon_sad:
Quote from: threepot on March 15, 2016, 04:45:42 PM
Got my Super3 to sort next! :icon_sad:
If it's yellow you'll need a lot of luck. I'm not superstitious, but it's always the yellow ones that give the most issues. :^_^
Quote from: threepot on March 15, 2016, 03:27:11 PM
Maybe coincidence,but the 'high revs' issue is since I've done the airbox 'mod',as pictured? Thought I'd try it after being assured by guy's on HTOC,that it would be fine? Now I'm not so sure? :icon_scratch: I think ive got a spare housing in the shed somewhere. Or buy a new one? Bike was running fine with the kn before.
As for oil..I'm using Castrol Power ,which I think is a full synth?? But it is 'bike specific',so shouldn't effect clutch?
Where you've cut the airbox... have you added a seal of some description, such as the 'U' channel in Sin_Tigers write-up? Quite a few people have done the mod with no probs.
http://www.tigertriple.com/forum/index.php/topic,14638.0.html
Ahhh noo. Dont start that now :ImaPoser you wouldn't be doing this sort of stuff on your first service off the showroom floor. Think about it. Why now.
Quote from: BruKen on March 15, 2016, 05:00:49 PM
If it's yellow you'll need a lot of luck. I'm not superstitious, but it's always the yellow ones that give the most issues. :^_^
Inlet valves!!! I've had it from 1998. Put 50k on it,and only needing a crank sensor in that time. But valves have been an issue from about 25k? I checked them last year,and 3 had negative clearance,with the thinnest shims in,and the other 3 not far behind :icon_frown: So its head off job! I had a quote from triumphant in Pontypridd..£400 labour + vat+cost of parts!! I'm borrowing a garage at the moment,and limited in work space etc to take it on :icon_sad:
And yes..it's yellow!
Quote from: JayDub on March 15, 2016, 07:34:42 PM
Where you've cut the airbox... have you added a seal of some description, such as the 'U' channel in Sin_Tigers write-up? Quite a few people have done the mod with no probs.
http://www.tigertriple.com/forum/index.php/topic,14638.0.html
I covered it with 'sticky' adhesive tape. And was reassured by guy's on HTOC that it would be OK?? I'll be honest,the bike runs really well. It's just the 'higher' revs thats an issue! I did buy a 19t sprocket to try a while back :augie
Just a little update. Used the bike several times since doing the airbox mod,and still runs nice. But..I've noticed it 'pops'' a lot on over run,and just very occasionaly on idle? I double checked all the manifold rubbers,and airbox to carb connections prior to re fitting. But a while back,I did notice some pin holes in silencers? Could that be cause?
Any leakage in the exhaust system will contribute to the popping from my own experience. As to the revs, in not so sure.