(Prologue: Saturday, the day before all this happened, I was driving home in the WRX from getting gas at Sam's Club when my brakes stopped working. Completely. A terrible ratcheting racket sounded from beneath the car--not too much traffic so I was able to pull over and look underneath. The entire caliper assembly had simply fallen off the driver's side rear wheel. It was dangling by the brake line.)
Getting ready for track day, one of the things you have to do is change out the coolant to non-skid stuff. When I approached this task, I called the dealer (PJ's, in Albuquerque, over an hour away) and said, I don't see a drain plug or anything. Should I just disconnect the lowest hose? Yep, came the answer. Drive on. So I did. Blue goo came out, then I reconnected the hose, rocked the bike back and forth a lot, disconnected it again, and drained it again. Then I reconnected it all and filled it, through the fill tank located in the cowling, with a 1:3 mix of Kool-Aid and water.
(N.B: This would later turn out to have been a tremendous, enormous, titanic mistake.)
So Sunday was track day at Sandia (http://www.sandiamotorsports.com/map.htm). My first track day ever, yay! The engine ran very cool--it was only in the 40's up here--until Albuquerque. Then, pulling off to top up, the Tiger quit. It wouldn't start up for 5 minutes or so and then with some black smoke. But running it was, and, nervous, I skipped the gas and went straight to the track where the dealer (PJ's) was to set up.
Their head of service (also a Mike) checked it out, and noticed a little spray of oil that had come from a bolt on the front of the engine, right side. He said to take it out on the track and see what happened. The tech inspector at the track agreed, with the caveat that I first clean up the bike (it was only maybe a tablespoon or two) so that we could see if it happened again.
The bike sat for over an hour while we got our class. Then it was out onto the track for 15 minutes of orientation. I spent the run in 2nd and 3rd, with the Tiger showing ample pull and awesome ground clearance. But looking down at my gauges in the straightaway--holy shit, the temp was in the red. I finished the lap and pulled off with everyone else, then went straight to PJ's.
Mike looked it over again. What was the radiator overflow showing? Something between Max and Min. Could the thermostat have become stuck? Well, the bike had never run this hot before. Leaking any more oil? Nope. The diagnosis: air bubble in the radiator, likely from my garage refill. Top it off and it should be okay.
Second session, same thing. Right into the red. I was now feeling pretty reluctant about taking it out again, and gun-shy from the problem with the WRX the previous day. When I went back to the PJ's area, I learned that Mike had crashed a Ducati on Turn 3, breaking a collarbone and several ribs. No help there. I took it out again...the name is ridin gaijin, not sit-in-the-stands-in-Albuquerque gaijin. Riiiiight?
Wrong. On the second lap of the third session, on turn 8 before the straightaway, the rubber plug exploded out of the fill tank and ricocheted off my helmet, followed by a spray of coolant. I swerved off the track and called it a day. Back to the PJ pit.
Working with a few impassioned Triumph amateurs, we discovered that there IS a radiator fill cap, and it's located under the gas tank. This was bad. It implied that I hadn't put enough coolant in for the track at all. A further check revealed the radiator was air temperature--not searing hot. Thus no coolant must have been circulating through it. The appalling conclusion was that each 15 minute session on the track had been run with minimal to no coolant for the engine.
A friend and I got the gas tank off. Thank you, Triumph, for including one of every fastener known to mankind on the Tiger. In among all the Torx screws, hex screws and regular screws, I would not have been even slightly surprised to discover a leather lashing or a clothesline tied in a clove hitch. We located the radiator cap and filled it with another coolant/water mix. We experimentally ran it and the engine ran cool. I decided to go back home, with my friend following (he lives in Albuquerque but is a good friend).
He needed gas, though. We stopped at a gas station and then the Tiger refused to start up again. Strong cranking from the starter, but not catching. I let it sit 5 minutes and tried again, and got it running. Back onto the highway.
And almost immediately the engine temp went from a little above C to straight into the red. The next exit was a mile away and it was on the off-ramp that the plug blew again, hitting my head again and dousing me in more coolant.
This time I called it quits. The bike was towed and will go to the dealer when they open on Tuesday.
1. Early in the morning, did a gasket go, permitting the coolant to mix with gasoline?
2. What significance do we attach to the oil leak?
3. If nothing was getting to the radiator from the fill tank, why did the plug keep exploding? Explosions like that imply coolant past the boiling point.
4. Was my failure to a) know about, b) locate, and 3) use the radiator fill plug to blame for the day's problems? If so, why did the engine run nice and cold until it stalled that morning?
Ah well. We'll start getting it all worked out tomorrow....And that. ladies and gentlemen, is why I won't be going to the Tiger rally in Arkansas after all. Thank you, and good night.
Good to hear of another tiger pilot out on the track. My Tiger did this trick in the middle of summer here in Australia. (40c+/ 110F). The rediator cap, as you discovered, is the culprit. The rubber in it stuffs up with the passage of time. I wracked my brains on this one too. Don't you love how the machine will risk saving a $5 part by trying to fry a $4000 engine!
The good news is it hasn't occured since. Mine was one of the first of the 955i's (5th) into Australia. Maybe it was Friday afternoon at Hinckley when the put the caps on!
PS- Tigers on race tracks ROCK!!!!
still sounds like it was air bound. I fill from the radiator cap, then remove the 6mm bleed bolt afterwards and squeeze the hoses a few times to liberate the bubbles. Then I run it for 15 min...if it's good, there's no air..if it starts to overheat, I bleed it till there is no air in the system.
You emptied out the engine without removing the radiator cap. I bet you only got 60% out (vacuum prevented the rest from exiting) . By filling the overflow, you did not replace any in the engine/radiatior, but you already knew that.
With that much airspace in the engine cooling system, you got it really hot, thus creating steam. Steam opened the radiator cap bypas and blew (violently) into the overflow, overpowering it and blowing off the cap.
With the engine getting that hot, multiple times, I would suspect anything from siezed rings/bearings, warped head, to a cracked cylinder block or any combination of them. Your engine needs a complete tear down and rebuild. I would not consider doing less.
Ouch!
Tomla and Sasquatch have got it right. If you get too much air in the system, the reservoir can't work because the air in the system is compressible, unlike the fluid that is supposed to be in the system. It's really quite a chore to get the air out of the cooling system in these bikes. The method Tomla describes is what the Factory service manual says to do and always worked well with my Speed3. As a general note, on all vehicles you must vent the system somewhere to drain the coolant effectively, and you have to fill from the radiator cap. The reservoir is really only there to deal with thermal expansion and only works if the rest of the system is ~95% full.
There is a good chance that you did significant damage to your bike (exactly as described by Sasquatch), but also a SLIGHT chance that there was enough coolant to prevent serious damage. It's not likely you would have driven far once the coolant reached the boiling point, since as soon as boiling begins the surface area available for heat transfer to the coolant is reduced and the whole process feeds on itself until the reservoir blows in your face for the reason Sasquatch described. (Sorry to slip into engineer-eese.)
If your bike's under waranty, talk to PJ and Keith and try and get them to replace your motor under warranty if it needs to be completely broken first, it's probably not too hard to do that. If it's not under warranty, I'll loan you my service manual, and show you how to get the air out of the cooling system. At that point, I would just ride the bike and hope. Maybe watch Ebay for another motor.
I didn't really address your points specifically in this post. I'm in ABQ, so PM me for my phone number if you would like more explination or some help.
Thanks Speed3 and everybody. Of course I do feel responsible, except I can't help but wish, in a vague way, that PJ's had offered a little more advice than to go ahead as I was. Who knew the radiator cap would be in such a dickheaded place?
Certainly I did it no good by draining and refilling incorrectly, and that might well have gotten me into trouble at the track anyway. But if so, why was everything OK for over an hour of riding to Albuquerque? I also still wonder why that little oil leak erupted? One explanation could well be that coolant was getting into the cylinder and then steaming up. The bike was running quite cool right up until I lost power and it quit on the way to the track. I can't help but suspect some other internal catastrophe--however possibly minor--that my own error then exacerbated.
Since I'm not wise enough to help out technically...I'm going to give you one of these [-o< , tell you that I'm rooting for you, and hope all turns out well.
Good luck!
Pat
Quote from: "Mudhen"Since I'm not wise enough to help out technically...I'm going to give you one of these [-o< , tell you that I'm rooting for you, and hope all turns out well.
Good luck!
Pat
:D :D :D
Thanks!
(Has the snow melted yet up there...?)
Was the oil leak from the slilver colored socket headed plug low on the right side? I also have an orange '05. This plug was loose upon delivery and I had to take the bike in to have it tightened during the first week. It appears to be a pipe thread (and feels like one when turned). I'm guessing Triumph missed getting a bunch of these in properly....
Quote from: "Speed3guy"Was the oil leak from the slilver colored socket headed plug low on the right side?
Not having the bike with me at the moment (it's "sleeping over" at a friend's in ABQ 'til PJ's guys go and get it), as I recall it was the foremost bolt on the right side of the engine, about midway up--like a bolt securing the top end to the rest of the engine.
Air is a really good insulator. If you had no coolant in the bike, it is possible that the cylinder liners got superheated before the temperature sender for the guage could read it. I don't know where the sender is on these bikes as I have had no reason to look for it.
Yes, I think the radiator cap is in a really boneheadded place. But, I have it down to about 2 minutes to remove the tank, and as long as I properly service it, I probably will not ever have to add coolant between flushes.
I support the idea of doing a full refill and bleed as well as an oil/filter change and see how things run. Actually, do an oil change first and really inspect the oil. Take a VERY CLEAN drain pan to drain your oil in. Let it set a bit and slowly pour it off into a bucket looking at the oil closely. If it has any "sparkles" or "Glitter like" stuff in it, that is metal and your hosed. Also cut apart the oil filter and inspect the filter media for the same.
Run your finger along the bottom of the oil drain pan and look at it closely for metal flakes or particles. You will have some slight sludge from the clutch plates, but no "sparkle".
Great Idea about the oil! In fact, you can send it to an oil analysis lab and they can give you a really good idea of what's in there. Here's a link to some guys that have a good reputation in the aviation world: http://www.blackstone-labs.com/motorcycle.html
Great Idea about the oil! In fact, you can send it to an oil analysis lab and they can give you a really good idea of what's in there. Here's a link to some guys that have a good reputation in the aviation world: http://www.blackstone-labs.com/motorcycle.html
Hmm bad luck there! Good to hear more circuit lovers are out there! I take my Tiger out to the circuit regularly and even visited the Assen TT circuit twice. What I was wondering: why did you think you had to use different coolant? I 've never changed anything (besides springs/tires) and I let the cat work I can assure you
About the advice: checking the oil sounds like a sane thing to do and can maybe save you money on a big overhaul if the outcome is OK.
Good Luck!
Quote from: "holland1"What I was wondering: why did you think you had to use different coolant? I 've never changed anything (besides springs/tires) and I let the cat work I can assure you
Hi Holland1, nice to meet you. We have to change the coolant to one that's easy to clean up, Just In Case. I used Kool-Aid (a brand name), there are a few others I could've used instead. A guy got thrown off the track the prior week for not having the right stuff.
Should know on the machine today/tomorrow--I'm having PJ's do its 6,000 mile maintenance early. Still wish I was going to Arkansas but I'll replace this trip with an even longer one later on.
Quote from: "Sasquatch"But, I have it down to about 2 minutes to remove the tank
Video please! :D
Hi Gaijin ( doesn't this mean "stranger"?)
I understand is just regulations forcing you to replace it. Are there more regulations to track use? Cans perhaps? In europe basically the bike should be streetlegal, only if you race you have to make more adjustments...
bye
Still not fixed!!
:evil:
PJ's reported it done on Saturday. 6,000 mile service complete--oil and filter OK--radiator completely flushed and refilled. Aaaaand...on the way back to Santa Fe it overheated again. Same as before, except this time I was able to pull over before the plug exploded again. I waited 10-15 min to cool it off and hit the highway again. It was on the verge of overheating once more by the time I pulled in to my driveway. A cell phone call to PJ from the highway confirmed his boys will pick it up on Tuesday and trailer it back down there.
Using my elite diagnostic skills, I have deduced that something is wrong with it.
I don't know about PJ but I would imagine that a test run would have thought them the same thing..................... :roll: