I was riding my '03 Girly today, it is a low mileage bike that I have owned from new and it was going really well . I stopped and went into a shop but when I went to start the bike again a few minutes later - no go. The dash lights all come on OK and the starter whizzes the engine over very briskly but no attempt to fire up at all. I checked the sidestand and cut-out switches as you do but no result and the tank is about half full.
So what is the next step ? My spannering knowledge would sort this easily if it was from the distributor , points and carburettor era, but sorting management and injection matters is not my forte. Ideas welcome.
:^_^
Quote from: Ossian on June 23, 2016, 12:30:58 AM
My spannering knowledge would sort this easily if it was from the distributor , points and carburettor era, but sorting management and injection matters is not my forte. Ideas welcome.
:^_^
Even in the "distributor , points and carburettor era" you would need a good charge. First, check your battery voltage and if you are stranded, get a jump. These bikes are happier when the volts are above 12.5v. Check the main fuse on the side of the battery box and if you have a spare 30A fuse change it. Also, there is a cut-off on the clutch lever.
If you get a strong fuel smell, it could be flooded.
Same basic rules apply to EFI as do points: fuel, air and spark. :icon_salut:
I agree with Joe. In the old days with points etc if the battery could turn the engine you'd get at least a whiff of spark and sometimes they'd fire up. With FI, there may be enough in the battery to light the lights and turn the engine, but if the battery volts drop below about 11.5v the injectors don't squirt. I don't know whether it's the injectors that are volts sensitive, or the ECU cries enough because I've never put a 'scope on it but either way the outcome is the same. I've had this twice by the way....
try to to start it with help of wires and car battery. If it will start then it definetely a dead battery
Quote from: Bixxer Bob on June 23, 2016, 12:00:46 PM
but if the battery volts drop below about 11.5v the injectors don't squirt. I don't know whether it's the injectors that ....
CanBus systems don't like anything below 11.6V most silk just call it a day and go for a brew. I know the ECU isn't CanBus but I'm reliably informed by a control systems engineer / designer, that most ECU chipsets use very similar internal protocols.
So as the guys said already, first things first, make sure you're going to have plenty of volts and amps during the whole process, starting off with a fully charged battery might be OK for a couple of spins but they fade rapidly.
I'll certainly give it a go with a jump start, but I have my doubts on the low voltage as the battery is new, and the bike is fitted with a series Shindengen reg/rec.
The sudden failure to run suggests to me that there is a break in some part of the ignition circuitry, where would be the places to look for a problem like that ?
Check the side stand cut out is free moving, mine has got stuck a couple of times due to dirt, a couple of squirts of WD40 usually sorts it out.
wiggle the wire harness at the key switch :nod
common location for sudden loss of electrical juice
Well, a jump start had no effect. :icon_scratch:
I don't have my wiring diagrams to hand, but first I'd look at the sidestand switch. Unplug the two wires and join them together. If it starts the switch is at fault.
It won't be the clutch switch because it doesn't turn over if the fault lies there.
I can't think of anything that'll go wrong at the ign switch that allows everything to light up and turn but not fire. This is pointing more to either the fuel pump or the crankshaft sensor, which doesn't usually fail like this whereas we've had two u/s fuel pumps in the last month or so.
(http://i648.photobucket.com/albums/uu206/GinDaemon/Tiger/SAM_23341_zps9wxbcdih.jpg) (http://s648.photobucket.com/user/GinDaemon/media/Tiger/SAM_23341_zps9wxbcdih.jpg.html)
My bike is still perched on the recovery trailer of shame. When the weather dries out I can ask my neighbor to help manhandke the hulk into my garage for further investigation.
I had a look at the sidestand switch, and the plunger is moving freely but I haven't located the connector yet to short it out and see what happens.
I am wondering whether it might be the fuel pump as there doesn't seem to be the normal priming whine when I turn the ignition on.
If the pump is the problem, I see that there is a huge variation in prices for these. From £100 plus from Triumph down to £20+ on ebay. Any recommendations please?
Weird, never heard of a pump failure for years and then potentially 3 in a few months. I was one of the failures, I bought a complete S/H plate pump assy off ebay, but then I wasnt 100% sure it was the pump. If you go the S/H route remember your bike may have the later single fuel pipe, you need to check, although I think the pump itself is the same across all years. If you arent hearing any pump sound, you might want to check your getting 12v at the connector first. Mine made the noise but no pressure.
I'm told, that the pump sometimes responds to a sharp tap with a hammer while voltage is applied because it's usually the motor has stuck.. Either on crud or water has caused some corrosion.
Quote from: Bixxer Bob on June 23, 2016, 11:33:43 PM
I'm told, that the pump sometimes responds to a sharp tap with a hammer while voltage is applied because it's usually the motor has stuck..
This sounds like my sort of remedy. :bad
Oh, um, how do you get at it to hit it ?
It was done on the bench......
I suppose it could be done on the bike but that introduces other issues, like causing a spark in the vicinity of raw fuel. You could use a non-sparking tool but they used to be made from Berillium alloy which is highly toxic. See where I'm going with this... :bad
Plastic screw driver handle :nod
Well rapping the fuel pump panel had no effect that I can see, so I disconnected the two fuel pipes and using a drift I pushed in the spring valves on the tank. However when I then spun the engine over no fuel came out of either valve. Would this be an effective way of finding out that the pump isn't working ?
OK With feed pipe plugged into tank, the return is gushing petrol , so it's an ignition fault.
Bulletin update. Stripped out tank ( having emptied it first ) as I am going to fit a pair of metal female fuel connectors anyway, and this seemed like a good time. Anyway, with the tank and airbox off I spun the engine over and squirted "engine start" into the TBs. IT FIRED UP !.
From this I deduce that the load of supermarket petrol I had just filled it with was total shite. :Topes
Have you checked for water in the tank?
give the fuel you took out of the tank a good shake and pour some into a clear PET lemonade bottle etc, let it settle for 5 mins and if there is water you'll see it separate from the fuel.
I siphoned the fuel out using a fresh length of transparent tubing, and then looked closely as the fuel drained. There was no sign of water, it's usually obvious when present.
I discussed this with my friendly garage guy, and he is vehemently against the supermarket stuff (though he is usually dealing with the results of cheap diesel) He advised to only use branded fuels, which means effectively BP as the only remaining major here with sites.
I know from experience that unless it's pulling only water from the tank it'll run on wet petrol.
The fact that it fired means the ign spark circuit is ok.
When you've put it back together, and if you can, put the tank on a workmate or similar next to the bike and plug everything in. You can then try to start it. If it firesup, great. If not, open the throttle as it turns over and see if the injectors are firing because at the moment it's pointing to either very low fuel pressure (before you started pulling things apart) or something like low volts stopping the injectors firing.
Because I wrote the golden rule (If it's running don't fuck with it) based on the horrors of years of obsessive tinkering I've had most of the common problems. I've had injectors not firing because the battery was flat. Not firing because the battery appeared fully charged but was knackered. Not firing because I'd run the battery down while working on it to the point where the trims got corrupted. A fresh remap and it was back to normal that time. So lots to go at, but first things first.
The problem with running even a good battery down, or turning the engine off when the battery is knackered, is the ECU energises a relay which keeps it fed with battery voltage while it stores the trim values and other settings. Once it's stored them it releases the relay whcih shuts everything down. You can here it click about 3 or 4 secs after you turn off. If the battery voltage is below 11.5v the ECU can't write to memory so either the values don't get stored or, worse, they get corrupted. A remap resets everything and get you going again.
I'm still waiting for the fuel connectors to arrive, so I thought I'd take the opportunity to do the air-box mod. I have the air-box split - only needed to Dremel 3 screws ! Can anybody point me to any threads about modding the air-box ? it's easy to remove the interior panel, but the front air intake looks very restrictive and I'd like to know whether it is worthwhile to either enlarge this or put in another airway on the opposite side of the box. (The standard is an intake on the LHS only)
Edit. Just found the ChrisCanning thread.
Quote from: Ossian on June 30, 2016, 01:22:53 PM
...............Edit. Just found the ChrisCanning thread.
What, the one where he says "Dont try and split the airbox" :rfl
If you remove the snorkel you'll end up taking on water which will soak the air filter......
I was expecting trouble with the airbox, and ended with 3 unwilling inserts. Luckily they were fairly well spaced around the housing and I was able to cut the bolt heads off with a Dremel. Now those 3 act as location pins. I used 5mm tap and die to clean up the remaining bolts and inserts so it all went back together easily (a little copper grease on each )
I left the snorkel in place and only removed the plate, which can now be easily replaced if the mod doesn't work well.
I reassembled the bike and it still won't go so I'm going to call in the cavalry. :^_^
Did you do the injector check I described earlier??? And although you got fuel out of the fuel line, if it's not at the correct pressure you still won't get it to run.
Well "The Cavalry" - old school motorcycle mechanic (who rides a Tuono) - hasn't been able to get it going either. :m In desperation I'm probably going to have to take it to the local agent. £75.00 per hour. :icon_cry:
Well, I've discovered an expert in system diagnostics and trailered the bike there today. Before I left him to his alchemy, he said to hold on while he did a quick diagnostic as I waited. Long story short, there were no faults showing at all. The dash lights all came on and the starter whizzed over but zilch.
So I left him to ponder the situation.
Now the Expert has announced that the crank position sensor is faulty. Triumph want nearly £50 for one. Can anybody suggest another more affordable source ?
Well the bike is now running again with a new CPS and the exchange of some drink vouchers. The old CPS appeared in perfect condition. I don't like this black box stuff much, but then something carburetted and air cooled would never go as well (when it actually does go !) :><