Is leaving the Eu a good deal or not? As a yank I say good deal. :new_popcornsmiley
Time will tell.
Truth is no-one knows for sure.
I have my concerns, as here in Wales we get (got) most of our funding from the EU... but its also what rights and other EU protection we could lose. I agree with Gav, there is a lot of speculation as to what the future holds, but realistically - this situation has never occured before so no-one knows :icon_eek:
Wales gets most of its funding from England, not the EU. You're welcome btw!
Your right about not knowing though. No one has a clue.
Crystal ball moment........
Boris running the UK, Donald the US
To quote Private Frazer ............... We're all dooooooomed!!!
I'm starting an independent Isle of Wight referendum :mut
Quote from: Nick Calne on June 24, 2016, 09:15:23 PM
Wales gets most of its funding from England, not the EU. You're welcome btw!
Your right about not knowing though. No one has a clue.
err, OK... from EU via England :icon_biggrin:
I've been saddened by the number of young people using the term "Racist" today in the belief that everyone that voted "Out" did it because they hate immigrants.
I have felt, more than once, the need to correct them, both on their assumption and use of the term. Their assumption demonstrates a total lack of awareness of the other issues involved or an understanding of the real meaning of the term but - and this is why I find it sad - it is useless to argue with them.
As an aside, I was also disappointed that when doing a VOXPOP the BBC - while focussing no those that voted out - only broadcast the views of those that stated imigration as the reason. Were they leading opinion or was that really the only view they encountered.....
You are spot on. The whole thing has reavelled an astonishing level of ignorance all round.
Can. Not. Wait. For Northumberland and being away from it all.
Quote from: Nick Calne on June 24, 2016, 10:21:29 PM
The whole thing has reavelled an astonishing level of ignorance all round.
I will second that.
I am not a Brit, I have a very clear opinion, but I'll stick to that.
Quote from: Nick Calne on June 24, 2016, 10:21:29 PM
The whole thing has reavelled an astonishing level of ignorance all round.
Another +1 Keep coming North mate :augie
Texas has always claimed the right to secede from the United States... we never really take them seriously. :icon_rolleyes:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_secession_movements (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_secession_movements)
We better keep an on eye on Texas. :icon_eek:
Man, my 401k took a beating today. :cp the news over here reports several other country's are looking hard at a vote as well - namely France. Stay the course! it will get better, after all, it worked out for us 240 years ago :ImaPoser
(Just kidding)
And the Scots are aiming to get back in, if other big players leave, not sure that would be a good idea.
Quote from: Bixxer Bob on June 24, 2016, 09:55:12 PM
As an aside, I was also disappointed that when doing a VOXPOP the BBC - while focussing no those that voted out - only broadcast the views of those that stated imigration as the reason. Were they leading opinion or was that really the only view they encountered.....
I spent several hours on Thursday canvassing for a Remain vote. And I'm afraid that very many of the people who told me (often very rudely) that they were voting Out gave immigration as their principal reason.
What I find sad is that only 17 million people out of a population of almost 70 million voted out yet we all have to abide by their decision.
I agree that the whole campaign has been characterised by slogans and half truths. It is a complex subject and of course there are cogent arguments on both sides but no-one ever seems interested in nuance. The whole thing is only going to increase intolerance and division.
:iagree :><
Quote from: aeronca on June 24, 2016, 06:54:12 PM
England?
What about the other three constituent parts of the UK?
http://youtu.be/JYLm5w5o10Q
Quote from: Sin_Tiger on June 25, 2016, 01:17:49 PM
What about the other three constituent parts of the UK?
Well, two of those voted remain and are trying to see whether they can remain, right? ;)
Well I'm not sure (and I don't think anyone can day that they are) that's possible under the current rules as its unlikely anyone seriously considered this situation when they made the rules.
I heard a snippet that the Netherlands were considering having a referendum now also?
:) No, there is one populist guy that is really right wing that wants NL to get out of the EU. Most of us have better sense than that, as about 80% of our GDP is obtained in relation to EU. So, even though that might be a minority that would want that referendum, I think the UK situation and subsequent economic consequences are hitting hard enough to put that off.
And I think it is more than likely that your country (Scotland) will have a second independence referendum if the UK pushes ahead and triggers article 50 for leaving the UK. (Even though I think this is becoming more and more unlikely.) However, that is only if the Scottish parliament doesn't veto the triggering of article 50 in the first place. But a second independence referendum would have a very different result when the UK is moving out of the EU as Scotland wants to stay in. That is what your PM has said. She wants to make that move, and legally they can.
(And then we've got Sinn Fein suggesting Ireland reunites and getting quite some positive response on this. And we've got suggestions of Spain and Gibraltar...)
It is all a bit scary whoever and wherever you are. Keep making good cheese and you'll always have a market here :thumbsup
Quote from: iansoady on June 25, 2016, 01:01:41 PM
I spent several hours on Thursday canvassing for a Remain vote. And I'm afraid that very many of the people who told me (often very rudely) that they were voting Out gave immigration as their principal reason.
What I find sad is that only 17 million people out of a population of almost 70 million voted out yet we all have to abide by their decision.
I agree that the whole campaign has been characterised by slogans and half truths. It is a complex subject and of course there are cogent arguments on both sides but no-one ever seems interested in nuance. The whole thing is only going to increase intolerance and division.
I voted out and I'm no racist and to be frank sick of people either telling me that or inferring that. I voted out because I have grave doubts on how the EU was being run and the fact we give them £161 million pounds a week only to be told that the EU gives us lots of money, for instance Cornwall gets £85 million a year of the EU that was to stop in 2020 I believe, so £85 mil is a day and half's contribution from this country to the EU.
They were calling for a fully federal Europe which in a lot of ways I don't particularly have a problem with but when I asked what are they going to do to sort the EU's problems out I got no answer, what were they prepared to do about Greece, unemployment in Spain, Portugal Italy and with the problems in the French economy, I could get no answers, as just like the "brexit" they don't have answers they were so convinced it would never happen.
Did we stay in and wait for to implode or did we jump I voted jump, better to be in the life raft than on a sinking ship. The EU have now woken up to the fact it will loose 15% of it's income
only 17 million voted but that was the majority and it was a democratic vote, I have heard lots about young kids saying that the old have given there future away, well only 38% of those under 24 who could vote actually turned out to vote, if anyone gave it away it was them.
If Scotland wants to go then good for them, I'm for any man having the freedoms he deserves
cheers Spud
Quote from: Spud on June 27, 2016, 04:27:57 PM
If Scotland wants to go then good for them, I'm for any man having the freedoms he deserves
cheers Spud
I think that when the Scots examine the terms and conditions on offer to new applicants to join the EU , their enthusiasm will take a big hit.
Someone at work said to imagine if you were being asked to join the EU, how would you feel about it, as it currently stands.
Felt it put a different slant on the argument
That's why Nicola is trying to sort it out before article 50 is activated Ossian but with back peddling Boris keeps going, who knows :m
:iagree with Spud about the younger ones. It did cross my mind how many of those at Glastonbury had done their postal votes before heading for the mud on such an important date :icon_scratch: not many methinks.
I voted out. I'm really concerned about 'mass' immigration,and everyone's harping on about the Brexit vote damaging the UK and Europe..there ain't going to be a Europe the way things are going! Another thing annoying is people saying 'we've ruined the future for the 'younger' generation. Really? There are record numbers of 'young' people still living with their parents because they can't find decent jobs,and affordable housing! Two of mine still live with me.Nigel Lawson sums it up nicely..
https://youtu.be/343mq0FxuOE
Tempted to move to Scotland and join my daughter. Although she did encounter Scottish bigots for the first time recently, who suggested she go back home to David Cameron Land. She pointed out that David Cameron is a very Scottish name, so they must take the blame for him. It takes a brave man to take on small fiery redhead with a brown belt in karate.
I voted out because I could not get any answer to the following
are you happy with a federal Europe ?
What are you going to do about the growing debt the EU is killing Greece with ?
are you happy with 50% unemployment in Spain amongst the young
What are the future plans for Italy and Portugal
will you be happy when our contributions go up
No one seem to have answers to the Greek problem and I don't think it is fair to the EU, us and the Greeks to keep bailing them out and them getting further and further in debt, the money being wasted by the EU is beyond a joke. So hopefully now we can all move forward for the betterment of the UK (sans Scotland?) and also the EU who the likes of Junker did not like
cheers Spud
Interesting stuff. The first time I was eligible to vote over there as a nipper was the referendum to join what was then the Common Market. I voted no because at that time I was fresh from senior school and had done history as a moderately favourite subject. The way I looked at it was that the European countries had never got on so why would they now?
Anyhoo. If I had been able to vote I would have voted 'out'. It will be interesting to see how things work out, but I believe that life will actually go on. The only ones really crying in their Corn Flakes are the politicians.....????
I notice that if you want to hear any good news since the vote, you have to go to news agencies other than BBC or ones owned by Rupert Murdoch. All you get from them is how bad it is / or is going to be.....
The BBC is horrible. It is funded in part by the EU, so it simply cannot be impartial. If you visit any bbc building it will be peppered with trade union posters and literature. The overriding political attitude is distinctly Corbynesque.
I'm not necessarily against any of those things being a pragmatic neutral but if you were expecting unbiased coverage, then you have not got a hope!
I am a Brit, living in France for the last 14 years or so, so feel I have a foot in both camps. The general consensus over here in France is utter bewilderment that Britain (or a small percentage of it) has voted to leave the EU.
I believe that this was brought about mainly due to the level of incompetence and apathy of the remain campaigners and the complete lack - on behalf of the BREXIT people - of a desire to want to know the REAL benefits of the EU.
Anyway, it appears that the job is done, so now it's a matter of negotiating a painless divorce - let's see how that goes ?????
Quote from: thebiglad on August 27, 2016, 08:21:55 AM
so now it's a matter of negotiating a painless divorce - let's see how that goes ?????
Painless divorce............ isn't that an oxymoron. :rfl
Been there twice, so have a little knowledge. :icon_wink:
Quote from: nickjtc on August 27, 2016, 06:43:39 PM
Painless divorce............ isn't that an oxymoron. :rfl
Been there twice, so have a little knowledge. :icon_wink:
Absolutely Nick, that was me attempting irony :mut
Quote from: thebiglad on August 27, 2016, 08:21:55 AM
I am a Brit, living in France for the last 14 years or so, so feel I have a foot in both camps. The general consensus over here in France is utter bewilderment that Britain (or a small percentage of it) has voted to leave the EU.
I believe that this was brought about mainly due to the level of incompetence and apathy of the remain campaigners and the complete lack - on behalf of the BREXIT people - of a desire to want to know the REAL benefits of the EU.
Anyway, it appears that the job is done, so now it's a matter of negotiating a painless divorce - let's see how that goes ?????
bit of a sweeping statement re "Brexit" people perhaps some of us weighted up the pro's and cons and felt the imbalance was to great and perhaps some of us did not want to be in a federal Europe or a Europe that is not working and I think it was a majority vote to leave as well :thumbsup
cheers Spud :thumbsup
It wasn't a massive majority though was it? Brexit 50.4% & Remain 49.6% wasn't it?
In any event, almost 50% of the voting public are now being ruled by just over 50% - recipe for peace and tranquility? I think not.
I also wonder if it'll ever happen.
Quote from: thebiglad on September 02, 2016, 06:17:11 PM
It wasn't a massive majority though was it? Brexit 50.4% & Remain 49.6% wasn't it?
In any event, almost 50% of the voting public are now being ruled by just over 50% - recipe for peace and tranquility? I think not.
I also wonder if it'll ever happen.
[/quote
]it was a majority vote, that's called democracy is it not,, so do you not heed the majority because you do not think there was a big enough differential ? or do you just ignore a result because you didn't like the answer. How many labour supporter's didn't like the Conservative getting in last time did we have a call for a re election on the grounds that the differential in the voting was not big enough and the fact a lot of the country was being lead by a Conservative party even though they are labour supporters ?
cheers Spud :thumbsup
cheers Spud
Quote from: Spud Murphy on September 02, 2016, 07:03:37 PM
Quote from: thebiglad on September 02, 2016, 06:17:11 PM
It wasn't a massive majority though was it? Brexit 50.4% & Remain 49.6% wasn't it?
In any event, almost 50% of the voting public are now being ruled by just over 50% - recipe for peace and tranquility? I think not.
I also wonder if it'll ever happen.
[/quote
]it was a majority vote, that's called democracy is it not,, so do you not heed the majority because you do not think there was a big enough differential ? or do you just ignore a result because you didn't like the answer. How many labour supporter's didn't like the Conservative getting in last time did we have a call for a re election on the grounds that the differential in the voting was not big enough and the fact a lot of the country was being lead by a Conservative party even though they are labour supporters ?
cheers Spud :thumbsup
cheers Spud
Mate seriously if you believe this move is the best for the UK then good luck to you. I think you are being a bit unnecessarily aggressive with me but hey-ho that's life. I won't have to live with the consequences. I'm outta here.
BL, my daughter has lived in France for quite a few years now, and she loves it there. However her opinion is that as things stand, the UK is quite right to vote to leave. She loves France, but is totally pissed off with the way it is run. The elite in France are adept at making sure that the lower orders do not get any real say in things, and they are well connected throughout the European bureaucracy to make sure things stay that way throughout.
People argue that we should stay in and make changes from within. Fat chance.
Not being aggressive at all, just stating my point after being what I would consider insulted....
and the complete lack - on behalf of the BREXIT people - of a desire to want to know the REAL benefits of the EU.
as I said a sweeping statement, how do you know what research I or any other person did or did not do to come to their conclusion to vote for a Brexit ?
If your happy in France I am really pleased for you, and if your happy to being in the EU well good on ya again, and if we end up parking our Tigers next to each other somewhere in France whilst on our travels I'll get the first one in of what ever your favourite tipple is :thumbsup
Me personally I see no future for the EU,
cheers Spud :thumbsup
I didn't vote in the referendum as I couldn't really find enough actual facts to decide the matter. As a neutral there are a few things that really stood out:
- no independently verifable evidence for either argument
- too much lying by both sides, particularly on the right.
- No one gives a hoot about those working class people who are genuinely disadvantaged by European immigration (and some really, really are)
- People have an opinion based on their outlook, not evidence
- Many left wing people can't accept democracy when it doesn't go in their favour... agree or you are a racist, ignorant bigot etc, demand another election etc
- You can't change the EU and it is not a great institution. My word they are arrogant.
But the thing that really got me was the issue really divided people who would otherwise be friends... after all, what really has changed? And what is really is going to change? (Clue - not much, in the short term at least) So worth worrying about?
My view on Europe? - we should ride it. :wheel
TBL,maybe you should consider reasons why we voted out? Are you totally happy with the way the EU is run? And more importantly I think,what do you think Europe will be like,say in 50yrs time? Difficult times ahead I think for future generations,and I don't mean financially. This is worth watching. He puts things into context in the first 3-4 mins I feel.
https://youtu.be/2ZdqAjDhVpo
I voted out. EEC is one thing EU parliment is another. No thanks
Quote from: threepot on September 03, 2016, 07:03:25 PM
TBL,maybe you should consider reasons why we voted out? Are you totally happy with the way the EU is run? And more importantly I think,what do you think Europe will be like,say in 50yrs time? Difficult times ahead I think for future generations,and I don't mean financially. This is worth watching. He puts things into context in the first 3-4 mins I feel.
https://youtu.be/2ZdqAjDhVpo
What an excellent speech, what an excellent clarity of thought !!!!!!
To answer your question 3pot, I'm not happy how the EU is run and how money is wasted in massive amounts. But what about the UK government and the money it has wasted, for example on the NHS Information Technology project that cost the UK taxpayers £8 billion and then was scrapped. And in all Western countries to one degree or another this happens. The difference is that imo, we don't need a European Parliament that, due to historical reasons, moves it's base EVERY WEEK. Hundreds are artics move the Parliament every week between Strasbourg and Bruxelles.
So as you can see I am aware of at least some of the daftness of the EU, I just don't think that is a good enough reason to "throw the baby out with the bath water".
You ask where I imagine Europe with be in 50 years time - well how impossible is that to answer !!! Only 1 year ago no-one imagined the UK breaking away from Europe so quite honestly I doubt anyone with any common sensewill venture an opinion on that? Will we all be speaking Farsi or Russian - who knows?
What I believe is that it is important to study history as that can give indicators to the future. Forget the past at your peril.
I believe that the EU has given Western Europe the longest period of peace in recent in history. Peace to build economies, technologies, medicine, education etc. Without peace everything, people, money, assets are all lost.
It's easy for people born in the 50's and onwards to forget the cost of wars, because in Western Europe we haven't had MAJOR conflict.
So to summarise, I believe in a European Union, but the version we have today will need a good shaking up. And it is we the people that need to do the shaking.
As in a 'good shaking up',you mean reforming? Well,I think we've had enough of waiting? :icon_wink:
Re trade with the EU,and ID like someone to authenticate the accuracy of this graph,but it seems to me,the rest of the EU seems to benefit from us,more than we do from them?
Also,check out the 'kalergi plan'. The 'higher echelons' support it!
I think some of us know all to well the cost of war, I served in the Falklands, my father left Ireland in 39 and joined the British Army, I had an uncle in the SOE, brother and sisters who served in the military also and I've just showed your comments to my mate sat next to me who served in Bosnia amongst other places.
People forget about Nato why do we need a EU army? perhaps they may be there to combat the growing unease in the EU about the EU, the growth of the right wing in German and the Left in France. Yes please heed history.
Yes our Government makes stupid mistakes but it's our Government not someone else's, and yes the EU changes cities just to vote cost 100 million pounds a year but will not change and they are never going to change, all they had to do was give Cameron something to charm the people of the UK but instead they told him to go away and he came back and made the statement about securing changes and a new reformed EU which later he had to admit was only a bunch of proposals put on the table
They may well have to change now because with out our £160 million a week input they may well go under as they are already starting to admit, so there may come a new reformed EU because we stuck our head above the parapet and forced the issue.
What no who is a remainer has ever been able to tell me is "what are the EU going to do about Greece"? the vast unemployment in Spain, Portugal and other countries. What will the EU do about the collapsing banking system in Italy ? I could go on but of course being a "brexit" voter I never wanted to know or indeed looked at the possible benefits of being in the EU or indeed the negatives
The Irish Government will now be tackling the EU head on about it's own tax affairs with regards to Apple
You are right mate we should look to history and not forget it, no we have not had a direct conflict in what most people consider Europe, unless you forget about the break up of Yugoslavia and Bosnia, Kosovo no we just fight our proxy wars in place like Iraq and Afgan which are now coming back to haunt Europe and I wonder how Europe is going to deal with that ?
As far as I am concerned we are leaving a dysfunctional family, who know they are dysfunctional and will not do anything about it, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing everyday expecting a different outcome.
There's a big wide world out there and our history dictates we did rather well sending our merchant navy out into it to trade with the rest of the world
As Churchill said "we are a sea faring nation who should look to the sea"
What was wrong with the "Common market" ? what makes us think a "United States of Europe" could ever exit it has been tried several times in the past
just my ramblings on a Sunday morning
Cheers Spud :thumbsup
Well put, Spud. I watch the horror (and I use the word advisedly) of what is going on over there and shake my head.
Quote from: nickjtc on September 04, 2016, 07:35:24 PM
Well put, Spud. I watch the horror (and I use the word advisedly) of what is going on over there and shake my head.
Brexit,immigration?? What in general?
Here's one reason why Brexit will be bad for Britain, from this mornings BBC news:
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-37270372
Just saying...............................................................
Hot air; they are just mapping out their position in preparation for talks. It's normal behaviour and nothing to be concerned about. Everyone does a bit of sabre-rattling before talks and some go as far as threatening to take their ball away if they don't get what they want. The UK Govt is not going to do anything that will upset the applecart and the Japanese are not stupid either; their UK plants are among the most efficient in the world.
Will we be able to offer better incentives for companies to stay,or invest here,when we're out? I've heard that some are thinking of re-locating here?
We can offer our own trade deals when we are out of the EU, we can't negotiate a deal whilst in the EU as all dealing have to go through EU negotiators, the UK has not negotiated a deal for 44 years as I understand it.
We can be open for business has been said already :thumbsup
it may cost us for a while but so be it, stop thinking this week or last week think this decade next decade,
amazes me how the remainers never see what actually happening in the EU :icon_scratch:
cheers Spud :thumbsup
Quote from: threepot on September 05, 2016, 12:05:29 AM
Brexit,immigration?? What in general?
Brexit does not really concern me as an individual because I live in a country which deals primarily with the US, and increasingly with the Far East. I make no secret of the fact that I did not want us to join the Common Market as it was then, and (totally unaware of the REAL facts of the matter) feel the same way now, only it's the European Union.
Horror, because I see the England I used to live in changing. I see places I used to live turning into run down ghettos where the residents have no interest in integrating into the society of the land they have chosen to call home. I am saddened by the violence which permeates western European society.
Why does the UK have the second highest national debt of any country in the world?(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_external_debt) Yes it was no bed of roses while I was growing up, but for the leaders of the country to let it spiral out of control is unforgivable, imho.
Enough of this.... let's talk about motorcycles!! :thumbsup
Quote from: nickjtc on September 06, 2016, 06:19:29 PM
Enough of this.... let's talk about motorcycles!!
You can of course but this is the part of the forum for these exchanges.
Quote from: Spud Murphy on September 06, 2016, 08:59:40 AM
the UK has not negotiated a deal for 44 years as I understand it.
amazes me how the remainers never see what actually happening in the EU :icon_scratch:
I don't think many people outside of institutional politics does, whichever side of the debate they are on, or whichever part of the UK we live in. I believe we as a country have been sleep walking for years with respect to what our own elected and salaried from the public purse, MEP's have been doing, they certainly haven't been very up front, particular during the debate. I do wonder what all those thousands of individuals that will be out of a job come the actual event will be doing. I can't see then signing on or losing out like steel workers or any other productive person might do in the commercial world. Personally I'd like to see all politicians on zero hours contracts with performance based salaries.
Keith Vaz or (Vazaline) as he is now being called :icon_redface:
Have a look at what the Polish Government are doing and saying re outside influences on their country and who is having to much influence and say in the EU affairs. The finance minister has said "Brexit has woken the EU up to other idea's that there is a life outside the EU" :bug_eye
Looks like they are going to go head to head with the EU about new rules and regulations they are bring in re outside interference in their country
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/n13xtmdc
cheers Spud :thumbsup