I want a Steamer, and I stumbled onto this one. I'm trying to decide if it is worth the effort.
http://austin.craigslist.org/mcy/521021592.html
According to the owner, this bike makes a 'rhythmic grinding noise' when being cranked (I haven't seen it yet, I plan to look at it Sunday). From my research here, I think the obvious answer is the Sprag clutch.
My questions:
1) Is it worth the $800 he said was the least he would take?
2) How involved is it to do the sprag clutch? I am a former auto mechanic so I'm not scared at all of pulling the engine. However, how far do you have to disassemble the engine to get to the sprag clutch? If I do the work, roughly how much will the job cost me?
Thanks!
Travis
You have to split the case to get at the sprag clutch, but a decent mechanic with a shop manual can handle it.
That's a fantastic price if you're not shy of a good bit of work.
(Cue dramatic music)
That is, assuming it's only the sprag clutch and not something more serious.
I've read thru the sprag clutch threads and didn't see a specific diagnosis.
What I have gathered about SC diagnosis:
grinds when starter is engaged
runs fine when push started
Is there anything else?
I really appreciate the help!
If the sprag(starter gear) is on the way out first the engine will spin unable to catch followed by a very loud clang sound(similar to slamming a hammer against a thick metal plate). First hand knowledge :cry:
I have priced the DIY fix at about $300-350, this includes all the gaskets(starter gear is $240). So, for less than $1500 you could have one fine machine.
But, I believe you have to look hard at the fact it has 70k on the odom. There could be other issues. Get the bike running/test ride, if all else feels good, the owner has any maintenance records and the bike appears cosmetically well kept it may well be worth the investment.
If closer for$800 I would scoop her up for parts and plastic.
Good luck
If it was closer I would scoff it in a heartbeat . the engine is probably still fine at 70 k but the parts are there and replacement pcs at the dealer are expensive and unobtainable , ie plastics etc , alternators run almost a grand ! igniters are $700 , etc etc
the person selling it could make a lot more money just parting this thing out on ebay !
Well, I bought it, got it home, and kind of got it running. I drained the fuel and replaced it with fresh hi-test. The dude was a mechanic and had pulled the carb and cleaned it, so it should be ok (he seemed totally on the level). After a few push start attempts, we figured out that the starter would catch when we got it out of that stripped part of the Sprag. So we hooked it up to an external battery and cranked it over. I got it to run while spraying puffs of ether into the air intake, but it wasn't getting any gas from the tank. Do I need to burp it after disconnecting the fuel line at the tank valve?
Anyway, while it was running it sounded pretty good. It definitely needs chain, sprockets and tires before it hits the road. But I'm thinking if I can get it push-startable, I may ride it for a while as is. Bad idea?
Thanks for the advice!
Yep, bad idea. Push-starting will get it running, and once it's running, you'll want to ride it. Once you ride it, you'll be hooked, and you'll just have to get it fixed right so you can take it touring, ADV'ing, fishing, camping, etc, without having to park on a hill. Then you'll be living with a lovely farkle collector, just like the rest of us.
Be warned! :mrgreen:
I have a F650, also, so I'll have a bike to ride when I get sick of push starting a fix the the sprag!
I used to have one of those. You should keep it. DAMHIK! :lol:
Ok. The bike ran tonight for the first time in a couple of years as far as I can tell. The tag expired on '05.
I didn't replace the sprag. I repaired it. I know some (or most) will think I'm a bit crazy, and it may be a dumb idea. We will see.
What a sprag clutch does is it allows the gear to grab in one direction, but not grab in the other. The way Triumph did this is to use something like 'teeth' (not a great description) that are held in place by a garter spring (basically a metal rubber band). In my clutch, the starter and idler gears looked brand new. The only thing wrong was that the teeth no longer grabbed. When I disassembled the clutch, it was obvious that the garter spring had lost tension, and that the teeth no longer grabbed.
I looked for a replacement garter spring. Suspiciously, Triumph doesn't sell that particular part of the clutch, while they sell all the other parts. Hmm. No one sells garter springs. I called spring manufacturers and they had no idea what I was talking about. Finally it hit me that using a spring was a stupid idea in the first place. If you keep a spring under tension it stretches eventually. However, it can't be under much tension or the garter spring would just snap. So I figured I'd try something different - wire. I bought some 22 gauge wire and triple wrapped it around the sprag. Then tried to put it back together. Too tight. I pressed in the teeth to expand the wire a bit and got the gear inside of it. Then I twisted the wire to tighten it up and put it all back together. The Clutch worked exactly as it should. It grabbed in one direction, but not in the other.
So. Gambler that I am, I put it back together to see if it would work. I figured that the only thing it would cost me is labor. I underestimated a little bit how painful it would be to get the engine back in the bike. Once it was in, I put the starter and alternator on so I could turn it over before I had installed many of the other parts. It turned right over.
So I put it all back together and got it running. It needs tires and possibly a chain, but not too bad for $800.
Will it last? Will it outlast a stock sprag? Only time will tell. Right now, it sounds badass when I fire it up.
EDIT: It occurred to me that I should post the answers to a few questions I had.
#1) The 51t sprag is the later sprag, and I had it in my '96.
#2) AFAIK, machining is only required if you have the early engine with the removable access cover. This was not me, but I read that somewhere.
#3) Don't pull the clutch. It isn't necessary. Just leave it there on the end of the shaft when you pull it out of the engine.
#3) You will need some weird tools. For my bike: a 36mm socket, a torque wrench (or wrenches) with a range between 6 ft/lbs and upwards of 100 ft/lbs (135 if memory serves), a pry bar, a rubber mallet to bang on stuff. This would have taken me hours less but for the trips to the auto parts stores. Wrestling the engine into the bike by yourself is very difficult. I used rope and two hydraulic jacks; it sucked.
Don't try to start it with a weak battery, or let it roll backward in gear. The slightest bit of reverse rotation of the engine is what kills Steamer sprag clutches.
(http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n223/fano1/worthless.gif)
Stretch: thanks for the tips, I'll do it!
Fano: I didn't take any. My wife is out if town with the camera. I could provide some illustrations if necessary, but once you have the clutch in your hands it becomes clearer what I am talking about.
Garter springs...
Sounds like the spring used in oil seals to hold the sealing lip against the shaft...
(http://www.sterndrive.info/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/W-86090-Oil-seal.jpg)
A bearing supplier may be able to find you a large oil seal, from which you could rob the garter spring. Jest a thought.
You are exactly right about the spring/seal connection, and that's exactly what I was thinking before the wire idea hit me. I did go to a local parts store and they didn't have a seal small enough to harvest the spring. I was planning to go to a bearing and seal shop before I settled on wire.
Apparently radial shaft seals (like the one you posted a pic of) are now the most common application for garter springs. By 'most common' I mean possibly 'only'.
If you have not already done so..
pull the fuel valve and clean it...should be a filter attached to it.
Install a clear, in-line filter just below the fuel valve.
Follow the fuel line to the carbs... where the fuel line meets the carbs is another fuel filter.. pull it out and chuck it.
Also.. there is a filter where your vent lines come out of the tank. That thing gets gunked up quite easily... water and 'stuff' in the tank collects in that area.
Check to see if there is a milky residue in your carb bowls. For some reason, some Tiger gas tanks of that era deteriorate on the inside and that resin residue gets into the filters & carbs.
The airbox has 2 snorkles... one coming out each side. Make certain you have one snorkle capped.... both uncapped creates big time problems.
Each of those snorkles end up under a side panel on each side.
What a fix!!!
You da man Doc. You da man.
(http://mudhen.smugmug.com/photos/14053954-M.jpg)
Quote from: "Mudhen"What a fix!!!
You da man Doc. You da man.
(http://mudhen.smugmug.com/photos/14053954-M.jpg)
I wish.
UPDATE:
The bike started several times, then started to have sprag probs until it stopped turning over altogether. I am pretty much positive that I didn't put enough tension on the wire that I wrapped around the sprag, so as it ran it worked just loose enough to stop grabbing. If it wasn't such a royal pain to get to, I would try it again. Honestly, I may yet try it again, I haven't decided. I went ahead and ordered a sprag, but I may get it apart and decide to try the wire one more time. When you've disassembled an engine twice, why not try for three? I will certainly post pics when I get it apart again, just for posterity as much as anything. I am also still thinking about tracking down a spring and trying that fix to see if it works.
If I had the access cover there is no question - I would not buy a new sprag. My sprag can certainly be repaired with a little TLC. I highly recommend anybody who has the access cover to at least consider trying this trick
if the gears look good.
Tigertrax - I really appreciate the info. I had to pull the filter at the carb to get it to start at all. I plan to put in an inline filter. Did you remove the filter from the tank?
I'll let y'all know how the experiment continues, if it continues.
Ok. Sprag update. I got the new one and started reassembling today. I'm working an assload this week so I'll have it on the road this weekend.
This is the 51t sprag clutch:
(http://the23rdcentury.com/Sprag%20pics/one.JPG)
Here are some pics of it being disassembled:
(http://the23rdcentury.com/Sprag%20pics/two.JPG)
(http://the23rdcentury.com/Sprag%20pics/three.JPG)
(http://the23rdcentury.com/Sprag%20pics/four.JPG)
In the bottom left corner is the problem, which I will refer to as the Tooth ring. It grabs when you engage the starter, but doesn't grab when the engine spins faster than the starter.
Here is a closeup.
(http://the23rdcentury.com/Sprag%20pics/teeth.JPG)
Here is why it doesn't work:
(http://the23rdcentury.com/Sprag%20pics/teeth%20saggy%20spring.JPG)
That spring is supposed to put tension on the teeth so they grab. Here are some pics of the spring:
(http://the23rdcentury.com/Sprag%20pics/spring%201.JPG)
(http://the23rdcentury.com/Sprag%20pics/spring%202.JPG)
(http://the23rdcentury.com/Sprag%20pics/spring%203.JPG)
So, I stand by my theory that a replacement spring will fix my sprag. I am unwilling to pull the engine a third time right now, so I splurged on a new one. However, I highly recommend that people who have the access plate at least consider just tracking down a spring and not needlessly dumping $250 into a part they don't need (you don't need it if there is no gear damage to either the sprag or idler gear).
If I get some good info on exactly what spring is needed I will post it for the greater good.
piccy no worky! :lol:
You saw my rough draft!
Thank you for the pics. Now it does make sense to me. :icon_study
Thanks for the pics. They're just what the doctor ordered. :D
Very impressive repair! This sort of microsurgery approach has saved me a lot of money over years and the education is invaluable. Too bad about having to pull the motor. No chance of reaching the sprag without, eh?
What about taking a longer garter spring and cutting it down. The trick would be in securely joining the ends. Maybe interlace a few coils and insert a wire to keep them interlaced. Then embed with silicone or JB Weld to keep the wire from moving. Maybe a crimp connection. Just throwing out ideas here.
Good luck with it
Nightrunner that is a very interesting idea. I want to try to find an exact replacement, but eventually I'll have to try cutting down the original spring to see if that works!
Great idea.
Quote from: "nightrunner"What about taking a longer garter spring and cutting it down. The trick would be in securely joining the ends. Maybe interlace a few coils and insert a wire to keep them interlaced. Then embed with silicone or JB Weld to keep the wire from moving. Maybe a crimp connection. Just throwing out ideas here.
Good luck with it
Can be done! In fact, that is how garter srpings are joined. Just make sure you cut the larger diameter end. Unwind it a bit between your thumb and forefinger and put the small end inside the larger end and let the spring screw itself together.
A-ha! Now I'll have to try it for sure!
Should I bind the spring ends somehow? I was thinking about JB or possibly a drop of solder.
I don't think it's necessary. The coils of the spring 's small end will fit within the coils of the large end and not move. I've done this before in other airborne applications. Nobody died yet.
The trick is cutting it to the right length. :wink:
Instructive, thanks for taking the time.
Quote from: "JetdocX"I don't think it's necessary. The coils of the spring 's small end will fit within the coils of the large end and not move. I've done this before in other airborne applications. Nobody died yet.
The trick is cutting it to the right length. :wink:
Like Chinese finger cuffs basically?