I am having a hard time starting the Tiger after it heats up. After about an hour of riding (especaill in slow trafic, or when riding in the dirt at slow speeds), if I kill the engine (using the kill switch or tunring off the ignition) then hit the ignition to try to start it back up, the starter engages but it sounds like the timing is off. The ignition seems to (for lack of a better term) 'slip' and the engine does not 'catche' and start up. Sometimes the 'slip' stops after a few treys and the bike will start. If this does not happen, I have to wait about 15-20 min for cool down or something, and then it starts up. It always starts up after the cool down period.
As for the obviouse: the kickstand is up, the bike is not in gear, and the kill switch is not engaged...
Additional information: Battery is new, ignition relay looks OK, bike starts and runs without a hitch when cold, and the bike's computer does not report any errors (my friend has one of these car computers that can talk to the Tiger, but he is not a motorcycle mechanic...). Bike has > 60K miles but has undergone regular service at authorized Triumph dealer.
Does anyone have similar experience with EFI bikes?
Just a thought...check out all electrical connections to the starter and relay. Also check battery ground. If all ok, check out the amps draw on the starter both cold and hot...may be a bad starter........
Will it bump start (begin on a hill) under these conditions?
Your description is not very clear. If I understand you correctly, the starter is spinning but not engaging and turning the motor? Most motorcycle starters have a freewheel/pawl ring (called a sprag clutch) like a bicycle freewheel, that is always turning That's why you hear the starter type noise when you kill the motor, the starter is always connected. When the motor is started, the speed of the engine overruns the starter clutch. When the sprag clutch fails, the starter motor spins freely and the engine does not turn when you press the starter button. Or, the sprag clutch freezes up and the starter motor spins with the engine; not good as this will definitely kill a starter motor with high rpm and a wicked ugly noise as your starter explodes.
Why the EFI bike question? If it is a fuel delivery issue:
1. When was the last time the valves were adjusted?
2. Has the FI ever been synchronized?
3. Which fuel map?
4. Spray some wd-40 around the intake while it is idling, if the rev's increase there is a vacuum leak.
Just throwing some ideas out there.
Thanks for the input. Let me see if I can try to explain the simptom better:
When I push the starter button, I can hear the starter engine try to start the motor. The normal sound of the starter is :
"ehgh ehgh ehgh ehgh..."
The cycle and beat are constant. The engine usually starts after the 2nd or 3rd "ehgh".
When I push the starter button if the bike is hot (after riding in slow trafic, or off raod at low speed but high RPM), the sound I hear is more like:
"ehgh ehgh eh ehi ehi ehi ehi".
The cycle changes, but the beat stays the same. Sounds like the cycle does not complete itself...
It's not the same sound as wehn the battery is drained. In that case, the cycle stays the same, but the beat slows down with each revolution.
Quote from: "swamper650"check out the amps draw on the starter both cold and hot...may be a bad starter........
I'll try that, but I would expect the computer to log a flag if there were any problems with the starter.
Quote from: "katoomon"Will it bump start (begin on a hill) under these conditions?
Don't know... it only happend when I was in the flats... :oops:
Quote from: "katoomon"Why the EFI bike question? If it is a fuel delivery issue:
1. When was the last time the valves were adjusted?
2. Has the FI ever been synchronized?
3. Which fuel map?
4. Spray some wd-40 around the intake while it is idling, if the rev's increase there is a vacuum leak.
Just throwing some ideas out there.
All scheduled maintenance was performed by the dealer on time. The fule map was done 50K miles ago for the high flow can... No issues there.
As I said before, after the bike cools down, it starts up and runs without any problem.
I had the stator/rectifier replaced by the dealer, and I replaced the colent temp sensor. The computer does not list any errors. The dealer can not re-create the problem so they can't figure out what's wrong...
My guess is a faulty relay, but I checked the relay next to the fuse box and it looked OK.
:?: :?:
Could be one or more coils or crankshaft position sensor failing when they're hot - otherwise perhaps a temperature sensor isn't working properly and not giving correct mixture. Do you hear the fuel pump start up when you switch the ignition on before pressing the button? Is there a smell of petrol from the exhaust?
If I understand your phonetics correctly, it sounds as if it's trying to start but just not catching properly. So it doesn't sound like a starter motor / relay problem to me.
Maybe something else to consider is valve clearances. If they've closed up you might be losing compression when it's warm, but of course there's a fair bit of dismantling to get at these.
gotta go with Ian on this one sounds like an ignition pick up failure to me . or possibly valves , but I'm leaning towards the pick up sensor .
Been there done that !
Quote from: "95mustang"gotta go with Ian on this one sounds like an ignition pick up failure to me . or possibly valves , but I'm leaning towards the pick up sensor .
Been there done that !
Where / what is the pick up sensor?
Quote from: "iansoady"Could be one or more coils or crankshaft position sensor failing when they're hot - otherwise perhaps a temperature sensor isn't working properly and not giving correct mixture. Do you hear the fuel pump start up when you switch the ignition on before pressing the button? Is there a smell of petrol from the exhaust?
Yes, i can hear the fule pump start up. No, ther eis no smell of petrol from the exhust.
Quote from: "BykBoy"I am having a hard time starting the Tiger after it heats up. ....
How hot is it? Do you have the coolant expansion tank problem of reversed tubes so you have lost a lot of coolant? This is known to cause severe overheating problems in stop-and-go traffic and slow riding. If so, I can imagine the computer sensing the too-hot condition and not allowing it to start. This might sound like ignition failure while cranking.
Quote from: "BykBoy"Quote from: "95mustang"gotta go with Ian on this one sounds like an ignition pick up failure to me . or possibly valves , but I'm leaning towards the pick up sensor .
Been there done that !
Where / what is the pick up sensor?
If it is like the steamers it is on the crankshaft on the right hand side and it is what sends the signal to the ecu it is the modern version of a set of points .
When they fail you will not realize what is happening other than no spark , the bike will spin over on the starter motor fine but it aint gonna start until the pick up sensor cools off enuff to work again , usually when one fails happens when you are riding and your tach will drop to zero even though the engine is still turning over . IE rolling in gear with clutch engaged like you were riding it !
The Crankshaft Position Sensor on a 955 is on the left side, just inboard of the alternator cover, at about the 2:00 position.
Not the three wires coming out of the alternator cover, but the big plug in the middle of the silver machined area.
Quote from: "2004Tiger"Quote from: "BykBoy"I am having a hard time starting the Tiger after it heats up. ....
How hot is it? Do you have the coolant expansion tank problem of reversed tubes so you have lost a lot of coolant? This is known to cause severe overheating problems in stop-and-go traffic and slow riding. If so, I can imagine the computer sensing the too-hot condition and not allowing it to start. This might sound like ignition failure while cranking.
Good point... I'll check the tubes to make sure they are not switched...
Quote from: "Stretch"The Crankshaft Position Sensor on a 955 is on the left side, just inboard of the alternator cover, at about the 2:00 position.
Not the two wires going into the alternator cover, but the big plug in the middle of the silver machined area.
Thanks! I'll have a looksee.
I assume you have checked the oil recently. How old is the oil and does it smell like fuel. The symptoms are indicative of hot oil failure. Could be a ton of other things but the oil could do it.
Quote from: "BykBoy"Quote from: "Stretch"The Crankshaft Position Sensor on a 955 is on the left side, just inboard of the alternator cover, at about the 2:00 position.
Not the two wires going into the alternator cover, but the big plug in the middle of the silver machined area.
Thanks! I'll have a looksee.
when the sensor failed on the wifes steamer we could get it running right away by pouring cool water on the case and it would be just enuff to drop the temp and let it start and run for about 5-10 minutes before it would die again , took about a half a dozen times to get it home instead of on the side of the road . that's how I determined it was the sensor .
Quote from: "95mustang"when the sensor failed on the wifes steamer we could get it running right away by pouring cool water on the case and it would be just enuff to drop the temp and let it start and run for about 5-10 minutes before it would die again , took about a half a dozen times to get it home instead of on the side of the road . that's how I determined it was the sensor .
I don't think this is the same issue. Mine has a hard time starting, but one it starts, it runs fine and does not shut down by itself.
That's why this is so puzeling...
Quote from: "NortonCharlie"I assume you have checked the oil recently. How old is the oil and does it smell like fuel. The symptoms are indicative of hot oil failure. Could be a ton of other things but the oil could do it.
I did not specifically check the oil, but I change the oil regularly... I"ll try smelling for fuel...
Well, after a valve adjustment, replacing the water temp sensor, replacing all the crank sensor, and replacing the ECU, this ended up being a bad Sprag clutch (a $450 for the part...).
Old Sprag assembly on the left.
(http://bykboy.smugmug.com/photos/389844662_AYWAL-XL.jpg)
Old Sprag on top
(http://bykboy.smugmug.com/photos/389835907_azQfX-XL.jpg)
Open Clutch and Sprag covers without Clutch and Sprag.
(http://bykboy.smugmug.com/photos/389836365_jrkD8-XL.jpg)
New Sprag in place.
(http://bykboy.smugmug.com/photos/389839580_kRUqX-XL.jpg)
If that was the problem... I am scratching my head.
Q: Why would the sprag clutch fail to engage when the motor is hot?
The sprag clutch was still functioning. However, it was not turning smothly. When I turned it by hand, it felt as if something was grinding inside.
My best guess is that the sprage would slip when it got hot. This would explain the differnt sound the comming from the starter. As the sprag slips, it can not crank the motor and the ignition process fails. That's my guess...
I spoke to a master mechanic and he said the sprag should not be blue. It should be shiny. As you can see from the picture, the old sprag is not shiny...
I'm heartened to see it's not an engine out job to do the sprag clutch on on a 955. I had a 900 Trident and it was a BIG job, fortunately done under warranty.
Is it as straight forward on a steamer, or is it like my old Trident, engine out and full strip?
Quote from: "Bixxer Bob"I'm heartened to see it's not an engine out job to do the sprag clutch on on a 955. I had a 900 Trident and it was a BIG job, fortunately done under warranty.
Is it as straight forward on a steamer, or is it like my old Trident, engine out and full strip?
Unless you have an early steamer that has the access cover it's engine out case splitting time ! Woo Hoo !
Glad I've got a Girly then... :wink:
Not so good though, a friend has a dead steamer due to a sprag clutch and can't afford the labour charges. I offered to do it for him over the winter if he can get it to me in a van or something. Like I need the work.... :roll:
Sorry about temporarily hijacking the thread by the way. He's the sort of guy that's not practical with is hands, but you don't mind helping out. He has an early hard-tail Triumph which had a rear drum brake flange that was rotted through a while back. Some ham-fisted idiot ruined it with a stick welder trying to build it back up. My friend was in despair, because he'll never find a spare, until I noticed the rotten flange, and most of the rubbish weld, was was spot welded to the main brake backplate. Although it had an awkward joggle in it, I thought we might have a chance, so, after making up a makeshift wood lathe from an old bacon slicer motor and a faceplate I turned up a hardwood press tool. I then cut out and fashioned a new flange. I didn't have a press to do the joggle with the press tool, so I jacked up the car, put the whole thing under the diff and let the jack down, that did the trick. Finally, when I was sure it was right, I ground the old flange off and spot welded the new one on. A coat of paint later it was as good as new.
Overcoming the challenge, and the look of absolute wonder on his face, was thanks enough, but he bought me a shed-load of beer as well :lol:
Yep, improvisation is the life-blood of the shade-tree mechanic.
Just today I saved myself a couple hundred bucks by building my own manometer (carb / throttle body synchronizer) out of vinyl tubing, scrap lumber, zip ties, and automatic transmission fluid. I'll post pics later.
Grand job Stretch, I'm guessing you're using three equal tubes with the transmission fluid in a u bend of some sort?
Did you use science to be sure you didn't suck fluid into the carbs the first time you used it, or just care and guesswork? :wink:
Quote from: "Stretch"Just today I saved myself a couple hundred bucks by building my own manometer (carb / throttle body synchronizer) out of vinyl tubing, scrap lumber, zip ties, and automatic transmission fluid. I'll post pics later.
I thought my manometer was to measure my manliness. I guess I've ben using it wrong.
Geof
Quote from: "Bixxer Bob"Did you use science to be sure you didn't suck fluid into the carbs the first time you used it, or just care and guesswork? :wink:
Care and guesswork. But mostly just the guesswork. (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v638/Stretch67/cheeky-smiley-025.gif)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v638/Stretch67/IMGP1900.jpg)
I built it with four tubes, on the offhand chance I'll need to synch the carbs on a four-cylinder bike some time. The fifth tube (far left) is the vent tube, which is open to the ambient air.
It's not perfected for fuel-injected Tigers yet, though. The Idle Air Controller bolted to the fuel rail regulates the amount of air meted to each throttle body at idle. The throttles themselves are
completely closed at idle, so all the air used by the engine at idle comes only from those ports (one port per throttle body).
So... the vacuum pulse at each vacuum port isn't just a by-product of the engine vacuum at idle (venturi effect, etc). It
is the engine vacuum at idle. No amount of restriction in the manometer tubes will keep the throttle ports from sucking in the oil.
So, I get to build a few adapters that I can plug onto the vacuum ports, which allow the engine to pull what it needs through the ports, while delivering a measurable vacuum for the manometer. Essentially, a small venturi that the manometer can plug in to in order to get a bit of vacuum, but not
all of it.
Quote from: "Stretch"Quote from: "Bixxer Bob"Did you use science to be sure you didn't suck fluid into the carbs the first time you used it, or just care and guesswork? :wink:
Care and guesswork. But mostly just the guesswork.
:ImaPoser My approach too...... basically a calculated risk, intelligently taken :lol:
I haven't got around to doing this yet but was under the impression that you need to use the throttle stop to crack the throttles open slightly so that the air for combustion is going past the butterflies rather than through the bypass. If you think about it, if the butterflies are completely closed how can you synchronise them?
That makes sense. That way, the one(s) that are opening a bit too early will show a lower vacuum.
#1 (far left) is the 'control', the one that the other two are compared to. So if 2 or 3 were showing high or low vacuum compared to #1, 2 or 3 would be the ones to be adjusted in order to bring all three into the same readings.