TigerTriple.com

Tiger Time => Girly Talk (1999 - 2006 Tigers) => Topic started by: eldiii on July 16, 2008, 09:30:41 PM

Title: Bad Head Gasket, 05 Tiger
Post by: eldiii on July 16, 2008, 09:30:41 PM
@ 40,000 miles I seem to have oil (lots of) mixing with my coolant; seems like a bad head gasket.  Anyone ever have this problem?  

Ed

eldiii
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Post by: TigerTrax on July 17, 2008, 12:05:47 AM
Ed..
There have been a few reports of this same problem.

I do not know the cause.

Tell 'becca I said Hi!
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Post by: Yukon on July 17, 2008, 01:16:09 AM
Ed,
What did the guys in Windber have to say?

Jack
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Post by: eldiii on July 17, 2008, 03:17:15 AM
It's been in the shop since the 3rd (July).  The shop did a compression test and points to a head gasket leak.  For good reason they won't tear it down until they have parts on hand to put it back together.  The trouble is that head gaskets are on back order..........there is another Tiger in the shop waiting (since before the Ride-In) for a head gasket too.  You would think that Triumph would keep gaskets in stock???  

Ed
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Post by: Bruincounselor on July 18, 2008, 03:22:20 PM
Quote from: "TigerTrax"Ed..
There have been a few reports of this same problem.

I do not know the cause.

I have not seen this in a 955. My 885i has had 2 done (Under warranty). Coolant leaking out of head in the area of the alternator over the winter. The second time seemed to be the fix.

Thank you Ma's  :hello2
Title: Similar Problem on my '05
Post by: The Kurgan on July 22, 2008, 05:55:31 PM
I noticed a bit of oily film on the right side of the engine, just along the head gasket. It is very minor, but I wonder if this is going to become a problem.

Mine is an '05 with only 2000 kilometres on the odometer. It is JUST out of factory warranty. However, I purchased it "used" from a triumph dealer who gave me an additional 2 month "mechanical" warranty which expires very soon. Should I bother sending it in?

Anybody else with a similar issue?

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3280/2690896387_fff70b5c3c_o.jpg)

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3202/2690896475_eaa2d5d067_o.jpg)

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3194/2691706268_ba40c37b59_o.jpg)

I snugged down the two hex screws on the right side of the engine, as they were a bit loose, but this doesn't seem to help. It is certainly not dripping any fluids, but I worry about this becoming a larger problem down the road.

After doing a bit of research, it would appear weeping or even leaking gaskets are not too uncommon on 955 Triumphs.
Title: Head Gasket
Post by: Lordy on July 23, 2008, 02:17:56 PM
Hi guys,

I have a Dec '03 build Tiger. My head gasket was weeping very minor amounts of coolant from exact area as shown in The Kurgan's photo`s.  After much research and talking to my local dealer I managed to locate the Resident Guru of Triumph Australia who told me to do the following.

Loosen all headstuds and re-tension to following specs;
Stage1: 25ft lbs
Stage2: 30ft lbs
Stage3: Angle tighten 90deg.

I did the above and have had no more coolant, or anything else, loss since. Note: I didn't drain the coolant, nor did I loosen the head studs completely. I was VERY careful not to disturb the head in situ or "break" the seal of the gasket so there was no coolant loss anywhere.  If you are in the least unsure, I would drain the coolant before doing the job to prevent oil contamination by coolant.

I hope this helps you guys, it certainly worked for me

See above for a new post I have a problem with, maybe someone out there has heard of this?

Thanks

Peter
Title: Re: Head Gasket
Post by: The Kurgan on July 23, 2008, 03:54:02 PM
Quote from: "Lordy"Hi guys,

I have a Dec '03 build Tiger. My head gasket was weeping very minor amounts of coolant from exact area as shown in The Kurgan's photo`s.  After much research and talking to my local dealer I managed to locate the Resident Guru of Triumph Australia who told me to do the following.

Loosen all headstuds and re-tension to following specs;
Stage1: 25ft lbs
Stage2: 30ft lbs
Stage3: Angle tighten 90deg.

I did the above and have had no more coolant, or anything else, loss since. Note: I didn't drain the coolant, nor did I loosen the head studs completely. I was VERY careful not to disturb the head in situ or "break" the seal of the gasket so there was no coolant loss anywhere.  If you are in the least unsure, I would drain the coolant before doing the job to prevent oil contamination by coolant.

How many bolts are we talking about here?

When you refer to Stage 1, 2, 3, are you referring to a progressive tightening sequence, or, are you referring to different types of heads?

What do you mean by "angle tighten"?

I'm pretty mechanically inclined, and normally do all my own motorcycle maintenance. However, I have never ventured inside a motorcycle engine before, and therefore, I'm not overly informed with certain terminology.

BTW, I'm going to first start by simply loosening the two accessible hex bolts located on the right side cylinder block (in my third photo above), and re-torquing them down. What is the torque on these bolts? 25 ft/lbs?

Thanks in advance.
Title: Head Tension
Post by: Lordy on July 23, 2008, 04:35:25 PM
Hi,
Firstly, all I did was "nip up" the 2 outer bolts you are talking about. (My workshop manual shows them to be to 12nm, I don't have the conversion here for that)

Head Bolts are located inside the rocker box, this means fuel tank, air box, ig coils and sundry items need to be removed.  You will need to set the timing marks, remove the cam chain tensioner,  identify/mark cam shaft caps before removing them to allow cams to be moved aside to access head bolts. (Tension for cam bearing caps is 10nm)

Stage tensioning: first stage; all bolts, in correct sequence, are torqued to 25ft lbs, then 2nd stage, in sequence again, to 30ft lbs.  Then they are angle tightened, in sequence, 90 deg. (Angle tighten is turning the head of the bolt a further 90deg (1/4 turn) past the last tension of 30ft lbs.  Head bolt tensioning sequence is shown in the workshop manual starting in the middle and working out,  see below for sequence

exhaust side
5   3   1    8
7   2   4    6
inlet side

If you don't have a manual it may be worth your while to get one before attempting a job like this one, is a bit involved... There are certain procedures to re installing the cam chain tensioner and ensuring valve timing stays set correctly too.  

Hope this helps

Peter
Title: Re: Head Tension
Post by: The Kurgan on July 23, 2008, 06:24:09 PM
Quote from: "Lordy"Hi,
Firstly, all I did was "nip up" the 2 outer bolts you are talking about. (My workshop manual shows them to be to 12nm, I don't have the conversion here for that)

Head Bolts are located inside the rocker box, this means fuel tank, air box, ig coils and sundry items need to be removed.  You will need to set the timing marks, remove the cam chain tensioner,  identify/mark cam shaft caps before removing them to allow cams to be moved aside to access head bolts. (Tension for cam bearing caps is 10nm)

Stage tensioning: first stage; all bolts, in correct sequence, are torqued to 25ft lbs, then 2nd stage, in sequence again, to 30ft lbs.  Then they are angle tightened, in sequence, 90 deg. (Angle tighten is turning the head of the bolt a further 90deg (1/4 turn) past the last tension of 30ft lbs.  Head bolt tensioning sequence is shown in the workshop manual starting in the middle and working out,  see below for sequence

exhaust side
5   3   1    8
7   2   4    6
inlet side

If you don't have a manual it may be worth your while to get one before attempting a job like this one, is a bit involved... There are certain procedures to re installing the cam chain tensioner and ensuring valve timing stays set correctly too.  

Hope this helps

Peter
Thank you Peter. This might be the solution for most 955i minor coolant weep issues from the head gasket area.

Sounds like an involved, but do-able job. I think I'll wait until I need my valves checked at 12K and then get the head bolts re-torqued. So far, not enough coolant residue to justify popping the head. I wash my bike so often, nothing really builds-up anyway.
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Post by: Stretch on July 24, 2008, 04:40:11 PM
Sounds like a good idea to include re-torquing the head as part of the regularly-scheduled 12k service intervals, while everything's already apart for valve check / adjustments.

Mine's coming up in just over a thousand miles.  Thanks for the tip.
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Post by: The Kurgan on July 26, 2008, 01:08:23 AM
An update to my head gasket weep...

I reported the issue to my dealer and sent digital photos, who in turn contacted Triumph Canada. Warranty work was immediately approved. My dealer was told that about 30 2005 model Tiger units worldwide were reported to have head gasket "weep" issues. Even though my Tiger is just out of warranty, this problem is considered "unacceptable" and thus is covered, in full, by Triumph. According to Triumph Canada, this problem is only cosmetic and does not affect the oil or the coolant. I checked both my oil and coolant, and indeed, NO sign of a blown gasket. There's simply a tendancy for the defective gaskets to wick coolant from the waterjacket to the outside of the engine. In all cases, the affected area is on the right side of the engine and in all cases this does not cause more than a slight film on the engine case. My dealer already has the new, updated gasket on order. It was decided to bring my Tiger in towards the end of the riding season, since the job will require the removal the engine  :shock: and will take about 2 days to complete. The good news is that I'm covered, there's no rush, and I get my valves checked for free (and adjusted to the loose end of the range), new coolant change, new oil change and a complete inspection of my pistons, cylinders, top end, etc. When I finally get around to bringing my Tiger in for the warranty work, I will take detailed photos of the various stages for those who are interested.

While they are doing the gasket change, is there anything I can do to improve the engine? Daytona 955i cams? Higher compression, lighter weight forged pistons? I really don't need more power, but they'll have the top end disassembled anyway. Just a thought.  :twisted:
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Post by: Stretch on July 26, 2008, 02:48:10 AM
Great news!

The only improvements I would make to the 955i Tiger engine would be to install entirely new gear ratios, with a lower 1st and higher 6th, with the rest properly spread out between.

Hey, I can dream.  (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v638/Stretch67/cheeky-smiley-025.gif)
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Post by: Lordy on July 26, 2008, 02:18:43 PM
Great news Kurgan, you have done well.  

As for your mods.... I couldnt agree more with Stretch, gear ratios are all I feel need playing with. If 1st was lower (a fair bit) and 6th were higher (say lose 1,000rpm @ 120pkh) it would be an ideal match for torque/power curves.  Still have great fuel econony with a $hite load of grunt at highway cruising speeds.

Happy motoring lads

PS, What is "riding season"?  What is cold?   :lol:
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Post by: The Kurgan on July 28, 2008, 06:17:41 PM
Quote from: "Lordy"Great news Kurgan, you have done well.

PS, What is "riding season"?  What is cold?   :lol:

Ah, shut up.  :lol: We get, maybe, 5 to 6 months of riding time, and even then, only 3 of those are "prime".

For some reason, I'm really looking forward to getting my engine pulled. I am very curious to see the state of my top end as well as ensuring that everything is "o.k." --  kind of a peace of mind thing.

Cheers
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Post by: Mustang on July 28, 2008, 06:45:52 PM
Quote from: "The Kurgan"For some reason, I'm really looking forward to getting my engine pulled...........

Cheers
I like to get my engine pulled too .............oh nevermind different engine ,   :ImaPoser
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Post by: Lordy on July 29, 2008, 02:59:31 PM
Hey bloke,

Jeez mate, cold?  You jokers don't know what cold is!!!! Winter isn't finished here yet and we have has at least 5 days that started at -4deg C so far... and hells bells there have even been a couple that haven't got up to 10deg C.  Whats wrong with you blokes????   Bunch of bloody sooks I recon. Mind you, head north of here for 10 or 12 hrs and it is shorts and tee shirts in the dead of winter and that is a real task to put up with  :wink:

I am sure you'll find all is well with your engine, they do have a reputation for being "bullet proof".  

I will attach a pic of my beastie packed for almost month away of camping out and touring. Flick me an e-mail if you want me to forward a few pics from the ride.  We went up through (get your atlas out) central New South Wales and Central Queensland to Noth Queensland coast and across to Gulf of Carpentaria then south and back through Central Queesland again and back to Canberra via mid western New South Wales, just under 8,000klms

Take care and safe riding

Peter
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Post by: The Kurgan on July 30, 2008, 05:39:25 PM
Quote from: "Mustang"I like to get my engine pulled too .............oh nevermind different engine

Mustang:
My wife takes care of the pulling for me.  8)
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Post by: The Kurgan on July 30, 2008, 05:39:46 PM
Quote from: "Lordy"Hey bloke,

Jeez mate, cold?  You jokers don't know what cold is!!!! Winter isn't finished here yet and we have has at least 5 days that started at -4deg C so far... and hells bells there have even been a couple that haven't got up to 10deg C.  Whats wrong with you blokes????   Bunch of bloody sooks I recon. Mind you, head north of here for 10 or 12 hrs and it is shorts and tee shirts in the dead of winter and that is a real task to put up with  :wink:

I am sure you'll find all is well with your engine, they do have a reputation for being "bullet proof".

Peter

Peter;
God bless you, but I feel I should respond...

If it only went down to -4 degrees Celcius in the winter here (in Canada), I'd be running around in my freaking boxer shorts and wife beater shirt! In the winter, we can get down to -30 degrees Celcius, and trust me, that is COLD!  :lol: Whenever the temperature gets "up" to anything over -8 degrees Celcius I often go for a ride!

Nice ride dude. I always liked the orange. I met a guy just yesterday riding a 2003 Tiger in Lucifer Orange, and it was a beaut. BTW, this guy apparently rides ALL season here. Crazy devil. He lives in a town that gets a hell of a lot colder than my home town!

BTW, could you please resize your photo? It just made the entire thread longer than my kitchen table. :)


Cheers, and rubber side down. :roll:  :wink:  :wink:
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Post by: eldiii on August 03, 2008, 01:33:54 AM
I went to the shop on Thursday to check on the bike and see if Triumph US would cover the work as Triumph of Canada as done.  Tim (Triumph of Windber) called and was told that only Canadian bikes would be covered under waranty. :(  So us folks in the Northern US don't have cold enough weather as it was determined that extreme cold weather under certain conditions damages the gasket.  Funny though, the original gasket was discontinued, all bikes requiring a new gasket will get a thicker, redesigned one to fix the cold weather problem.

I personally think this is BS; I've got 40K on the bike with zero problems till now.  These engines should not be having this problem; it's a bad gasket design and Triumph should own up (buck up $) under warranty!  Starting to sound like Harley....

I'll share my pain with all when I get the bill,

eldiii

Ed
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Post by: Stretch on August 03, 2008, 01:48:54 AM
Quote from: "eldiii"These engines should not be having this problem; it's a bad gasket design and Triumph should own up (buck up $) under warranty!  Starting to sound like Harley....

Truth.
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Post by: The Kurgan on August 09, 2008, 04:31:51 AM
Just an update:

The dealer came by my house to pick-up my Tiger for the head gasket change. It will be ready by Tuesday! They insisted on picking it up as opposed to me riding it there.  :D

I had already removed the tank and seats to see how things looked underneath and to check the coolant and air filter (which, BTW, didn`t have a grain of dust on it). They told me not to bother putting the tank on. I know why!... what a royal pain in the a$$. They have a spare tank they will use.

Anyway, the dealer was surprized to see that my 2005 model Tiger had the earlier composite head gasket and not the newer layered metal gasket. They think mine is a VERY early 2005 model  :?:

They were also surprized to learn I had the plastic fuel plugs. They will be replacing those with the metal ones as per Triumph recall.

I also noticed the allen-head oil sump bolt (at bottom front of engine) was also weeping... so they'll be taking care of that as well.  :lol:

The mechanic is going to call me when he has the engine apart... and has allowed me to take detailed digital photos of all the internal parts... I'll post them as soon as I can for those that are interested. He told me that the 955i engine is normally bullet proof and that the pistons and cyclinders will likely look perfect. I`ll see about that.

Lastly, the mechanic, who seems very knowledgeable, will be giving my engine the full monty to ensure maximum power and performance... whatever that means.  :P

To add to the excellent customer service, they also insisted on my taking a demo Tiger for the weekend.  8)

Overall, I am quite excited and hopeful.

Cheers.
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Post by: Stretch on August 09, 2008, 05:02:26 AM
That's the kind of customer service I wish we heard more of.
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Post by: The Kurgan on August 09, 2008, 07:38:11 PM
Quote from: "Stretch"
Quote from: "eldiii"These engines should not be having this problem; it's a bad gasket design and Triumph should own up (buck up $) under warranty!  Starting to sound like Harley....

Truth.

Yep, agreed. Bad gasket design.
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Post by: The Kurgan on August 09, 2008, 07:39:06 PM
Quote from: "Stretch"That's the kind of customer service I wish we heard more of.

Best customer service I've ever experienced... and I've owned plenty of Jap motorcycles. Now, I just hope the work is done well!  :D
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Post by: The Kurgan on August 15, 2008, 09:28:21 PM
New, updated, ALL METAL head gasket:

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3197/2765405219_eb6b696889_o.jpg)

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3280/2765405169_85fcedf35a_o.jpg)

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3130/2765405097_e7e25966b3_o.jpg)

No more leaks (SO FAR).  :lol:  :D

The dealer did an excellent job, and I couldn't be happier. For some reason my Tiger sounds quieter at idle now.  :?:
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Post by: Stretch on October 09, 2008, 02:31:31 AM
Well, I attempted to re-torque my head this afternoon, but the last fool to adjust the valves must have removed the cams to do the job, because the cam bearing cap bolts were so damned tight, I broke two T-30 Torx bits trying to loosen them.

I hope my head was re-torqued while the cams were off then, because it sure ain't gonna happen now.

Damned dealers.   :roll:
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Post by: The Kurgan on October 09, 2008, 12:30:22 PM
Quote from: "Stretch"Well, I attempted to re-torque my head this afternoon, but the last fool to adjust the valves must have removed the cams to do the job, because the cam bearing cap bolts were so damned tight, I broke two T-30 Torx bits trying to loosen them.

I hope my head was re-torqued while the cams were off then, because it sure ain't gonna happen now.

Damned dealers.   :roll:

Bloody hell, what a pain! I can't believe any competent tech would over-torque into an aluminum head.

If you still have your cam cover off, why don't you try using vice-grips on the cam cap screws? You will likely knacker the screw head, but the screw is easily replaceable.

BTW, are you experiencing any coolant weepage or is this just a preventative exercise?
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Post by: Stretch on October 09, 2008, 03:46:51 PM
Vise-Grips didn't work.

I'm not experiencing any weeping at all, but after reading this thread a few months ago, I thought it would be a good idea to re-torque the head.
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Post by: walker on December 14, 2008, 06:47:54 PM
the manual calls for step torque as:

stage 1 - 20nm (~15ft/lbs)
stage 2 - 27nm (~20ft/lbs)
stage 3 - 90 degrees

so the fix is slightly higher torque values initially? 10ft/lbs more each stage? Wonder if it should have been that from the factory.... maybe that's why they are leaking.

(http://www.tigertriple.com/forum/album_pic.php?pic_id=102)
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Post by: eldiii on June 20, 2009, 01:13:21 AM
See my note 06/19/2009 in  955i oil consumtption


eldiii
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Post by: mrazekan on June 22, 2009, 05:55:32 PM
Quote from: "Stretch"Vise-Grips didn't work.

I'm not experiencing any weeping at all, but after reading this thread a few months ago, I thought it would be a good idea to re-torque the head.


If it ain't broke.... :D

Did you just happen to be taking the valve cover off the bike and decided to give it a go?   :D

When I retorqued my head, the valve cap bolts were also on super tight.  While I did not snap a bit, I definitely twisted it.  It could be related to the bolts sticking or the heat cycling of the engine.  

The retorquing (http://tigertriple.com/forum/index.php/topic,5360&highlight=)worked for me.

One note when retorquing; Follow the bolt removal sequence outlined in the manual.  When removing the first bolt, take it completely out, inspect and oil the threads, then retorque it to about 1/2 of the first stage torque value.  THEN move on to the next bolt and repeat.  This way you always keep some clamping force on the head so you don't have to worry about your liners.  Then proceed in the proper order and torque your head bolts in stages:

Manual:       15 ft*lb, 20 ft*lb, 90 deg
My Engine:  20 ft*lb, 25 ft*lb, 90 deg

Be well!
_h
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Post by: TheMule on June 22, 2009, 06:46:23 PM
Kurgan,

Wow that bike is clean, I've spent hours on my '01 and still haven't come close to that.

"There can be only one"
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Post by: The Kurgan on June 22, 2009, 11:18:38 PM
Quote from: "TheMule"Kurgan,

Wow that bike is clean, I've spent hours on my '01 and still haven't come close to that.

"There can be only one"

Simple Green and some elbow grease. The stuff works wonders on everything from bug guts to road tar. Just be sure to wash it off quickly, as I hear it can leave permanent stains on exposed aluminum. I do a final rinse with Mr. Clean Auto Car Wash... to ensure there's no dried water droplets.  :lol:
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