Over time , either from overzealous mechanics who tighten the damn screws down until they spin the captive nut , or the other biggie that will make them spin is rust ,
1. First use a 5/16ths drill bit to drill the head of the bolt off so you can get the fairing panel out of the way .
2. Now with whats left of the screw , if you can get a cordless drill to chuck on it great , otherwise you will have to drill and put an easy out in it . Don't drill too deep or you will puncture the gas tank , then you are screwed
(http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee47/2uoykcuf/repairs/101_1801.jpg)
3. wind that drill up until you melt the plastic and keep pulling the insert out of the melted plastic .
4 . when it comes out it will have a hex on it so you can put it in a vice and remove the remains of the bolt .
(http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee47/2uoykcuf/repairs/101_1800.jpg)
5. grind the hex down so it is round and scar it up some this is to make it small enough to fit back in the whole that was created when removing
6. open the whole in the tank up to the size of the nut insert only remove the excess flash around the whole , too much and you will puncture the tank
*****EDIT :be extremely careful here , if you get carried away you will have a gas leak .an alternative would be to grind the wellnut down to size until it fits in the whole it created when you yanked the well nut out ****
7. Mix up some JB Weld and fill the pocket in the tank with the epoxy about half full
(http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee47/2uoykcuf/repairs/101_1803.jpg)
8 with a cap screw in the nut insert , stick it into the tank and let the JB weld cure
(http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee47/2uoykcuf/repairs/101_1802.jpg)
9 remove the cap screw and with a razor knife clean off the excess epoxy and then the job is done
10 . to help prevent it from happening again put a little dab of grease on the threads and only hand tight snug .
drilling the heads off the bolts ain't esy by the way, I blunted loads of drills bits doing that, because I had a spare fairing I used a Dremel to grind the fairing off,
as an alternative I heated the studs with a mini-blow torch and just pulled them out with pliers when the surrounding plastic had softened,
then opened the holes up with a polishing bit on the Dremel (just melts the plastic when it heats up), replaced the nuts into the holes full of plastic epoxy resin.
...sure is stupid idea of using them skinny captured nuts, but the bike has a really prob with spinning nuts on nearly all of it's body kit :?
I had a broken off bolt inside one of these captive nuts from the previous owner. Finally got it out but it's not usable:
(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_bNWCp21GtiE/TPAWF3D_l4I/AAAAAAAAAg4/_ZNMF5gJi0Y/IMG_20101126_141526-1.jpg)
The hole once the broken nut (above) was removed:
(http://lh4.ggpht.com/_bNWCp21GtiE/TPAWdeP-uLI/AAAAAAAAAg8/QRZz1fJNvig/IMG_20101126_141548-1.jpg)
The replacement nut (left) compared to the old one (right) is much shorter:
(http://lh5.ggpht.com/_bNWCp21GtiE/TPBG4EPkpJI/AAAAAAAAAhA/ECjd2O14vDQ/IMG_20101126_171227-1.jpg)
The JB-welded fix:
(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_bNWCp21GtiE/TPBHC0NfhdI/AAAAAAAAAhE/h5LZz8sDql0/IMG_20101126_171158-1.jpg)
Are these captive nuts available to buy anywhere?
I have one missing on my tank, about time i got around to replacing it.
Or if anyone has dimensions so i can get something similar.
Quote from: "rf9rider"Are these captive nuts available to buy anywhere?
I have one missing on my tank, about time i got around to replacing it.
Or if anyone has dimensions so i can get something similar.
It's a stainless M6 (that is 6 mm) "acorn" nut. The fact that it's stainless, metric and "acorn" turned out to be rather uncommon in my locale. The attendant at the fastener place I bought it at was "surprised" that they had it in stock.
I think you'll have an excellent chance of finding a normal steel version of this at any decent place that sells fasteners in the US. Not so sure about getting one in stainless steel, though, nor what it's like in the UK.
RF9, you're local to me. If you can't find one I'll run you one up. I've got some stainless bar so easy enough.
BB
Quote from: "Bixxer Bob"I've got some stainless bar so easy enough.
In fact I think stainless bar is a better solution than the shorty acorn nut I used: you can groove it easier thereby it'll "hold" into the cold weld mix better.
For stainless fasteners in the UK (prolly export too), Stig's Stainless have an excellent range and good service too.
http://www.a2stainless.co.uk (http://www.a2stainless.co.uk)
Quote from: "Bixxer Bob"RF9, you're local to me. If you can't find one I'll run you one up. I've got some stainless bar so easy enough.
BB
Thanks mate, if i can`t find one i`ll let you know. :)
Pm'd you, RF9
Quote from: "MIMbox"Pm'd you, RF9
Thanks. :)
looks like I'm going to have to go down this route.. :( theres only about 4mm left of the screw sticking out, I dremeled a couple of flats on it and unsiezed it so it now turns, but so does the 'captive' nut...
so, I presume that I drill out the screw, then the 'easy out' screws into the captive nut??
Quote from: "NeilD"looks like I'm going to have to go down this route.. :( theres only about 4mm left of the screw sticking out, I dremeled a couple of flats on it and unsiezed it so it now turns, but so does the 'captive' nut...
so, I presume that I drill out the screw, then the 'easy out' screws into the captive nut??
if the nut is spinning now , it is probably going to spin trying to drill it and use easy out , good luck with that :twisted:
if you can get a drill chuck on it you can spin it fast enuff to melt the plastic and just pull it out while it's spinning
Quote from: "Mustang"if you can get a drill chuck on it you can spin it fast enuff to melt the plastic and just pull it out while it's spinning
It's still not easy. You will need patience. I had no screw to grab onto, though. I used drill and an extractor and it took two days of on-and-off jiggery pokery to get the old busted nut out. I finally used a screwdriver and levered it out.
My experience was a little different. Here's how it went:
starting out
(http://i1020.photobucket.com/albums/af326/BobTosi/7fe82500.jpg)
after about 15 minutes of screwing around with a drill, the bit wedges in the bolt and I keep it spinning as I pull the bit out.
(http://i1020.photobucket.com/albums/af326/BobTosi/fa5bdcda.jpg)
captive nut intact! yipee!
(http://i1020.photobucket.com/albums/af326/BobTosi/a950fbbf.jpg)
the hole left after removal
(http://i1020.photobucket.com/albums/af326/BobTosi/d74f867a.jpg)
So this is my question, do I drill this out so the captive nut fits back in, then expoxy it all up and put the captive nut in the expoxy?
it is best to not drill the tank plastic .................better to grind the captive nut down so it fits back in the hole and use jb weld to hold it in .
less chance of creating a leak that way .
Quote from: "Bob Tosi"So this is my question, do I drill this out so the captive nut fits back in, then epoxy it all up and put the captive nut in the expoxy?
Don't remove any more of the nylon tank material if you can avoid it. Ideally you want the opening to be smaller than the cavity. I would replace the captive nut with a new stainless acorn nut of equal size, M6.
In an ideal situation you'd machine your own nut so it has grooves around the outside or hourglass shaped so the epoxy has more to hold onto when you seat it. I didn't do this and so far solution has held for over a year.
We are a resourceful bunch aren't we? :ImaPoser :friday
You can get serrated nuts, resembling a cylindrical pine cone for a few cents, that will push / screw in and give a good key. That's what I was intending to use before my mechanic decided to do it his way.
We shall see :wink:
(http://tigertriple.com/forum/album_pic.php?pic_id=552)
Number 5 in the picture
Sin_Tiger, I like the thinking. #5 would get a good purchase in the JB Weld / Metal Epoxy.
[/quote]Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 1:32 pm Post subject:
Sin_Tiger, I like the thinking. #5 would get a good purchase in the JB Weld / Metal Epoxy.
QuoteI repeat myself
We are a resourceful bunch aren't we?
Quote
The ground down captive nut
(http://i1020.photobucket.com/albums/af326/BobTosi/9d6ac5f5.jpg)
Epoxy all ready to go
(http://i1020.photobucket.com/albums/af326/BobTosi/3775d350.jpg)
The cleaned out hole
(http://i1020.photobucket.com/albums/af326/BobTosi/26fc1d2f.jpg)
Filling the hole
(http://i1020.photobucket.com/albums/af326/BobTosi/130a8d42.jpg)
All done
(http://i1020.photobucket.com/albums/af326/BobTosi/1d41425d.jpg)
I had this problem a while back and used a flanged nut to sort it out:
http://www.tauzero.co.uk/bikes/tiggers.html#turningbolt
Quote from: "tauzero"I had this problem a while back and used a flanged nut to sort it out:
http://www.tauzero.co.uk/bikes/tiggers.html#turningbolt
Something like so, with the flange (bottom) facing inward sounds great because the resin now has something to hold onto assuming the flange is buried in the resin. The only problem is how do you keep the resin from getting in the threads? I would almost think you'd end up gluing the screw into it if you used one. Maybe use wax in the threads?
(http://www.ezscaffold.com/pics/3D%20Renderings/hardware/50cwfnz-%BD%20suh%20whiz%20flange%20nut.jpg)
I just took care to apply the epoxy only where it was needed, after I'd put the nut in place. I'd have had problems if I'd put the epoxy in the hole first.
Most of my screws were spinning when I bought my Tiger. I have only had to resort to drilling the head off one.
The others were removed by pushing the screws down by an angle of about 20 deg, which tightens the insert in its hole. I achieved this by various means - a couple with a loop of wire twisted until screw was angled; a couple with a strip of ply cut like a 12" rule and with a vee cut in the end. This will slip between tank and side panel and can be pushed down to angle the shaft of the screw. Pulling the rubber washer from behind the screw gives you more room to do this.
The cordless drill with allen bit kicked the screws loose once they were held at an angle. Only one screw failed to respond to this treatment and needed the butchery described in the main text.... but try this method before creating major holes in your tank !
I made new rubber washers from thin slices of rubber tube which are harder than the originals and stop the screws from 'bottoming out' on the inserts, which I think is a factor in them seizing. I now tighten the screws with my cordless drill set to no3 or the shorter handle of an allen key.
Hope my experience will help someone and avoid major surgery !
I had a couple of spinning nuts. I just ignored them for a while. The next time I tried to remove them they came out with no problem. The only difference was that I did this on very cold frosty day. Differential contraction or something similar I would guess. Once I had the bolt out I ran a drop of liquid super glue behind the captive nut and I have had no problem since. A year or so later another one started spinning, so I awaited Winter and repeated the procedure, again the nut came out with no problem. It works if you have the time and patience to wait for cold weather. If not then perhaps a pipe freezing kit as used for emergency plumbing repairs may work.
It seems odd, I would expect metal to contract more than the plastic tank, but it has worked for me.
You will rarely have to wait very long for cold weather in the UK :hat10 That its a bit puff a surprise though and another alternative method to add to the list.
Ah yes , cold weather in Singapore. Hell freezing over etc, etc , etc.
Quote from: Geoff W on April 21, 2013, 10:38:22 PM
Ah yes , cold weather in Singapore. Hell freezing over etc, etc , etc.
Oh yes, about as likely as a horse free burger in the UK :pottytrain2
:sign13
If you want to avoid the epoxy sticking to the threads of the bolt give them a thin smear of good quality grease or Copperslip.
Then slap the epoxy all over the place.. just remove the bolt when the epoxy has started to set firm and trim off all the excess with a blade before its completely set..
If you use "Chemical Metal, Quick silver etc" its possible to do away with the nut altogether as that stuff sets so hard it will hold a thread no problem.. and lets face it they are not needing tightening up to massive toque levels?
To do this clean your bolt on a wire brush then smear with good quality grease and then wipe it almost all off using a cloth, fill the hole and smear the threads of the bolt with chemical metal, then insert the bolt (getting the angle and position right!) as soon as the Chemical Metal has set enough to be firm, (about 5 min) remove the bolt and trim as before. Then reinsert the bolt and leave to cure for 24 to 48 hours before re assembly and fully tightening up.
You will get a far better "grip" on the metal of a captive nut if its really clean, so use some brake cleaner on the nut after roughing it up and avoid touching it with fingers (clean gloved fingers are fine).
Simples! ;) :thumbsup
(Sorry for none UK people you will not get the "Simples" joke)
I just did this to my 96 Tiger.
All 5 nuts on one side were spinning.
I used a 5/64 drill bit into the center of the allen key slot in the head of each bolt.
It was easy to center in the head of the bolt since its concave to a point.
I then used the corresponding EZ Out extractor bit.
Worked well. All OEM bolts are reusable and not beat up.
You gotta pull hard on the drill.
When it starts to smoke, pull harder, it's ready.
I used Marine JB Weld because it is made to come in contact with gas and hold up also said to be suitable on more types of plastic.
Fingers crossed.
I didn't grind down the nuts, I shaved the edge around the whole with an exacto knife.
Tried a drill first and saw gas seeping.
There isn't much room for error. Repeat the last stmt.
Cleaned the holes with alcohol, filled the holes with JB, cleaned the nuts with alcohol, popped the nuts back into there spots with bolts in them, wiped aroun the top like finishing concrete, took the bolts out, cleaned JB from bolts.
Now waiting and hoping the JB will plug the two leaks I created.
Would have been fine if I didn't use the drill on first two. Use exacto knife.
If you mess up with the 5/64 bit you can still go up to a 7/64 and not beat up the bolts.
Might wanna have both size bits and EZ outs when you start and the next size up EZ Out also for a plan C.
Hope it helps.
I put this fix off for about 2 year and it wasn't that bad :)
Well done, just come back and tell us it didn't leak :thumbsup
:thumbsup often the case, scarrier thinking about it than doing it, I live in a perpetually state of fear :icon_lol:
Update and more info:
1) It's not leaking. Gas in tank for 1.5 days.
I let cure for 48 hrs instead of the 15-24 recommended.
One of the holes was as big as the nut insert and the other was small and seeping.
I drained the tank after the seeper.
2) I placed a couple small pieces of the JB Weld Marine (from my mixing surface) after it cured, in a cap of straight gasoline and it hasn't broke down for 2-3 days.
I plan on leaving it in there for months to know what's happening inside my tank.
3) I used chop stix as my applicator for the JB Weld.
4) Dupli-Color Universal Black NG SF 100 is an OK match for a Black Tiger.
It's not perfect, its a little darker, can't tell in sunlight only at night under flashlight.
It sticks good, keeps OEM cracked/bubbling paint together longer and will probably fade to match better.
Back on the road.
2 days. 3 hours a day. Lots of thought. Broke some bits. Sprung some leaks.
Could have gone smoother. Could of not worked.
<$35, have some bits, extractors, touch up paint and JB Weld left over.
Cheap easy fix. Don't use drill, use exacto knife.
Ill let you know if it ever leaks.
Aah, JB Weld. The duct tape of epoxy adhesives. Is there anything it CAN'T stick, I wonder?
front sight on a 1911.......... :augie
failed miserably
Quote from: Mustang on March 25, 2014, 10:39:27 PMfront sight on a 1911.......... :augiefailed miserably
1911?? Rifle? Pistol? Who needs a front sight anyway? :icon_wink: