Hi I have 98 Steamer. Was preparing for the first ride this year after a 40000 km service including valve adjustment at the local Triumph service shop in Umeå, Sweden. I only came about 100m before things went bad. It would not run above 3000 rpm, was slightly better with choke on, could just barely drive to the shop, they told me it was probably due to old gas in the carbs (?). Well, they drained the carbs, and unlikely it was running slightly better after this. Happy I drove home and changed the air filter to a K&N and mounted a centerstand. Then the bike would not run on all cylinders. Apparently it was only running on the middle one (#2), sparks were totally black but dry (except for the #2 spark). Tested with tt600 coils (used), no improvement. How can you tell which contact is the plus one one the TT600 coils? If I connect these wrong could I destroy the spraig by leading high voltage to the block?
However I also noticed that the generator intermittantly gave up to +20V. After cleaning all connector surfaces to the rectifier in the generator the output was steady around 12,5V. Tried to start again but no improvement. Bike would not run well. Bought new plugs but the bike would not start with these, tested with both original and TT600 coils. Noticed then that the shop had given me the NGK DPR9EA (should be DPR8EA) plugs for some reason. Do not know if this caused the bike to not start, maybe the difference is small. Cleaned the old plugs in ethanol, but engine would not start with these either. All starting efforts make the battery weak, and I was getting bad whacking noices when starting, finally the starter would not work at all, was only getting these loud noices, presumably from the sprag clutch. Now it is impossible to start, clutch will not engage. I will take the bike back to the Triumph service shop tomorrow, but I am afraid that whatever is wrong will be very costly, and that the shop tells me that everything is my own fault, even though the bike was running well before the 40000 km service.
What to do? Is the sprag clutch repairable? Is this covered in a maintenance handbook? Here in Sweden bike and car repairs are really costly (high taxes and wages), so unless the shop takes some responsibility I'm in trouble I guess. The sad thing is that the original problem is unsolved and I have no idea why the bike would not run properly. It was running good before I put it in the garage in September. Any ideas?
One more thing, tried a Daytona (probably) 3-1 exhaust collector when assembling the centerstand and it actually fitted with under protective cage, it was really tight though (do not know what year of the Daytona). The right silencer connected to the collector with just a few cm shorter offset. It could work. I will dig into that later when (if) the motor runs again. Weight save will be 6 kg.
Am I jinxed because I test drove a 1200 GS the same day this happened? I really liked it too. Two tumbs up for german engineers, one tumb down for Triumph...
Sound bad to me. Trying to starting it with a dead battery is reported to cause sprag failure. Certainly your symptoms sound like sprag failure. I think it's very unlikely you fried the sprag with high voltage, but somewhat likely you killed it by trying to start with a dead battery.
Sorry for the bad news, and good luck getting the dealership to fix it.
Oops. I now understand that the right worhd is sprag, sorry for my bad English.
Stay away from that dealer. They fooked it up. No doubt in my mind whatsoever. The hard part is proving it without any mechanical knowledge on your side. Do you have any other choices? Even an independant shop?
No other dealer choices for me, nearest is 450 km away. I'll keep you posted about any progress in the case. The bike is at the shop now I guess, but I don't want to hear from the guys right now, focusing on other things. I've got my new Tool Tube and Pro-Taper handlebar in the mail recently. Boy, can't wait to get her back!
i hope things work out ok for you harre. javla idioter mekaniker, hopefully they wont screw you on the repairs. keep us posted. eric
Update:
After two months, the shop mechanic finally took a look at my bike and concluded that firstly, it only runs on one cylinder and secondly that the sprag clutch is dead. Of course this sucks big time. I already knew this, and the bike ran perfectly well before the shop laid their hands on it the first time. However, I have no proof that the shop screwed things up and I'll just have to live with it. Therfore I am planning to replace the sprag myself this long winter. My question is which manual I will need for this job? The Haynes manual is half the price of the Triumph workshop manual, so I will go for the Haynes if it is just as good, but maybe the Triumph manual is covering more subjects. Any recommendations?
The mechanic thought that dirty carbs are causing the engine failures, therfore I will try to clean the carbs, and I would like to know if this is covered in any workshop manuals?
I have a -98 (chili red) and do not suspect that I have a DAR problem. Maybe this was fixed on the later models? However, I'll appreciate all suggestions about other things to check or replace when I have the engine down. I'll talk to Triumph Sweden about any discounts on the new sprag, but I have little hope.
One lesson learned: avoid the shop Norrlands MC in Umeå, Sweden.
Harre
In going back to your original post you said you had valves adjusted and now the bike has starting problems , It does sound like YOU may have been the ONE who killed the sprag .
But it sure sounds like the shop screwed up the valve adjust . if they have them too tight you will never get it to run right on all cylinders . I would certainly check the valve clearances after repairing the sprag clutch . I doubt it is in your carbs . CHECK THE VALVES
The Haynes manual is actually pretty good. And when you are ready to start let me know and I'll give you some tips I figured out the hard way.
They're not secret or anything; I just don't have time to type them out right now.
MUSTANG, I agree, the sprag was probably weak already before the service, but the starting problems after service definately killed the sprag. Nevertheless, I just have to accept that the sprag is a weak point and move on. Thanks for the advice on the valves, I will check the clearances after the sprag job. I hopefully this is covered in the Haynes manual.
Dr. Mordo: Haynes it will be then. I'll contact you when things get started. Any ideas about how long the spag job will take? I have little experience of engine repairs but with the backup from you guys I am ready to give it a try.
Checking the valves is in the Haynes manual.
It takes a long time to do the sprag. I'm thinking at least 10 hours. You'll ned a couple of tools that you may not have like a torque wrench that goes down to very small amounts of torque, and you'll need a motorcycle lift to get the engine out.
When I get home from work today I'll type out my recommendations.
Ok. I don't know how much wrenching you have done. If you literally have done no work at all, then this is probly not where you want to start. If you've done some simple things like starters, alternators, and brake jobs than this won't be too tough for you.
A some tools I highly recommend:
T55 Torx bit
12mm allen
Motorcycle lift
Some Rope
Torque wrench with a range of no more than 12nm up to 132nm (I used both a 3/8" drive and a 1/2"
drive torque wrench, and finding one that went all the way down to 12nm was a little tricky)
Blue Loctite
The first two you want in a socket form so you can use a torque wrench to tighten them to the proper tension. The second two are invaluable when removing and installing the engine. The smaller torque wrench is critical when reassembling the crankcase halves. The Loctite is necessary for several different things, so don't forget to use it when Haynes recommends it!
Some tips:
The Haynes manual is good but has a couple of minor issues.
#1 - The procedure for removing the Sprag is under "Alternator/starter clutch drive - removal, inspection and installation" which took me a little while to find
#2 - Pulling the carbs is a pain, but a couple of things can make it easier.
a) Instead of detaching the choke cable from the choke bar, slip loos the plastic lock that hold the bar in and pull the whole bar away from the carb assembly. This serves two purposes which are releasing the choke cable but also getting the choke bar out of the way to make it easier to remove the throttle cable. But be gentle and be very careful not to drop the plastic locks down in the intake manifold!!
b) Open the carb butterfly and stick a large Sharpie marker in it to hold it open. This makes it much easier to remove the throttle cable.
c) I use one of the large faring bolts to cap off the fuel line from the carbs to keep gas from going everywhere. They'll still leak if you don't keep them upright, though.
#3 - Removing the engine is a bit counterintuitive. You remove the bolts, and then it is very difficult to get it to drop out of the frame. It turns out that it is much easier to lift it up above the mounts, and then pull it out the side of the bike. I often used rope looped under the engine and tied off to stabilize it as I moved the jack around.
#4 - The Haynes book says to remove the clutch before splitting the cases which is totally unnecessary. The clutch is no problem at all when left on the end of the output shaft.
#5 - They tell you to disassemble and examine the sprag. While this may be interesting, it is unnecessary because none of the parts inside are sold individually by Triumph; you have to buy the whole sprag.
#6 - Don't replace the idler gear, which meshes with the sprag, unless it looks chewed. I would bet that it is absolutely fine.
#7 - Stuff you'll need from Triumph, and it's been a while so I may be forgetting stuff here:
gasket set for the crankcase
numerous o-rings that are described in the Haynes book
sprag clutch (of course)
Haynes recommends you replace the engine mount bolts, I didn't do this, but it's up to you
There are a bunch of seals and stuff around the transmission shafts - I didn't replace these, but it
really isn't a bad idea
Gaskets for the left and right side engine covers (clutch, front sprocket cover, etc) - I used RTV
sealant on these instead of gaskets. If I had it to do over, I'd get the gasket for the front
sprocket cover, cause it is leaking a bit. But I'd still just RTV the others.
The biggest things I can tell you are:
Be patient. It's a big job, if you aren't an experienced mechanic it'll take a long time. It's isn't that hard, just involved. If you aren't sure how to proceed, ask us. I don't know if Mustang has done a sprag (must be good karma paying off for him), but he's done everything else. So between my sprag knowledge and his knowledge of everything else we should be able to get you sorted out.
The most common mistakes for an inexperienced mechanic to make are crossthreading or overtightening bolts. The torque wrench should prevent overtightening, and you should always, always, always start the bolt by hand to be sure it is threaded correctly, and then tighten it with the ratchet.
Be thorough. If you aren't an experienced mechanic you don't know which corners you can safely cut, so don't cut any that I haven't addressed above.
Be ready to wait for parts. It is very likely that you will get the engine apart and realize that you need some obscure gasket or o-ring. You order it and then have to wait for a week for it come from England. You are going to hate yourself if you put it back together and it doesn't work right because you were impatient.
Take pictures so you can remember the pain and show off what a badass you are to your friends and family. BTW, the exhaust pipes were only a pain in the ass because I didn't want to pull them apart. Learn from me - pull them apart. It's way easier.
My wife's dog, however, is a pain in the ass because he is the devil disguised as a terrier.
Dr Mordo, thanks for the invaluable tips. It's not unlikely that I'll return to you with some more questions when I get started. I have all the necessary tools for the job, but I will have to check the torque wrenches to see if they'll go as low as you suggested. I have done my fair share of wrenching in my days (mostly to keep my cars running), so I know about crossthreading, overtightening, crushed knuckles and dropped parts. I understand that when treading on unknown ground one has to be careful, so I'll take my time. I'm not looking forward to remove the engine from the frame, but there is a first time for everything. I'll post some picts later. First I have to order the Haynes manual and contact Triumph for parts.
With the help of Dr Mordo(and others) I was able to replaced the sprag with little difficulty. Patience and liquid wrench was key in maintaining my sanity.
A tip I received from 95tiger over on triumphrat... to aid in the removal and installation of the engine loosen the swingarm.
also here is a link to photos documenting the process, courtesy of stanware
http://stanware.digoxy.com/imageupload/ ... lery12.htm (http://stanware.digoxy.com/imageupload/sprag%20sized/gallery12.htm)
Steammoto. I have looked at the picts and was somewhat disencouraged. It's definately more complicated than I imagined. Nice to have all the picts though. They may come in handy. Thanks for sharing.
Quote from: "steammoto"A tip I received from 95tiger over on triumphrat... to aid in the removal and installation of the engine loosen the swingarm.
The triumph manual clearly states to loosen the swingarm bolts . I have seen bikes that the engine would not budge a fraction of an inch even with all the bolts out , as soon as you loosen the swingarm bolt it falls on the ground :shock: be ready for it . I use a m/c lift to catch the engine !Use the same lift to stick her back in .
Quote from: "harre"Steammoto. I have looked at the picts and was somewhat disencouraged. It's definately more complicated than I imagined. Nice to have all the picts though. They may come in handy. Thanks for sharing.
You can do it. Also note that a whole row of pics is him needlessly disassembling the clutch.
Prepare a work space with ample room, maintain organization and documentation of parts, etc. removed, this will make life after installing the new sprag so much more pleasant upon the rebuild. As far as the overall complexity of this exercise, it is very doable(I did it and I am by no means a wrencher). Again patience is key, take your time, if you feel frustration coming on for whatever reason(bad day, frozen bolt) walk away.
Update on the sprag repair.
I've removed the engine from the frame. It took some time, and I would not recommend doing it by yourself, unless you have a firm floor jack, mine was far to wiggly. Fortunately I secured the engie with ropes around a "traverse" before loosing all bolts. One important point is to support the rear wheel before loosening the engine bolts. The engine did not drop until I did that. Haynes says this clearly, I just missed it.
Earlier this winter I visited a Suzuki dealer on my way home from the Tiger garage, luckily there was an English mechanic who had many years of experience of the early triples. This guy have now looked at the engine and carbs, and says that there was some debris in the carbs, especially the in #1 carb. Moreover, he also measured the valve clearances, and on cyl #3. the intake clearance was only 0.04, clearly out of specifications. I may have an issue here with the company that did the valve adjustment, since I haven't used the bike after the adjustment. What can I expect if the valve is this tight?
The engine was only running on cyl #2. Maybe the answer is clogging of carb #1 coupled with too tight intake valve on #3 ?
I will let the mechanic do the sprag job. He has the experience and I have not. I am also considering to let him do a re-jetting (keihin), I recall reading some thread about this. Hopefully I can afford the job. I'm unemployed right now, but who isn't? With some luck I can get a refund from the first company who did a shitty job servicing my Tiger. I so happy that I have found an alternative to those guys.
Well, I hope those are the problems. I certainly think they could be; junk in the carbs is bad and I was amazed how much the character of my bike changed when I adjusted my valves last summer.
It's probly smart to have him do the sprag. You've already done most of the work by pulling the engine, so it shouldn't cost too much. I highly recommend buying or borrowing a motorcycle lift; it's a much safer way to lift the engine.
Quote from: "harre"Update on the sprag repair.
This guy have now looked at the engine and carbs, and says that there was some debris in the carbs, especially the in #1 carb. Moreover, he also measured the valve clearances, and on cyl #3. the intake clearance was only 0.04, clearly out of specifications. I may have an issue here with the company that did the valve adjustment, since I haven't used the bike after the adjustment. What can I expect if the valve is this tight?
The engine was only running on cyl #2. Maybe the answer is clogging of carb #1 coupled with too tight intake valve on #3 ?
.
.04 is really tight
yes a tight intake will make for hard starting and loss of cylinder firing , and when ithe engine warms up it will usually go to zero clearance and actually holding the valve open . Gummed up carbs will also drop a cylinder .and a dirty air filter will make a triple not want to start and not idle good at all .
Engine actually was running good for a short while after cooling down, but started to hesitate after a few minutes when engine was warmed up as suggested. Carbs were also drained (by the company) before I tested. Air filter was pretty dirty, but ther was no improvement with a new one (K&N).
By the way. I asked the mother ship for a new sprag but Triumph Sweden said that 40000 km (25K miles) is an accepted interval for a sprag change. I've got no response yet for my somewhat bitter reply to that.
Next step: write (angry) letter to local Triumph workshop. :evil:
Make sure you send a copy of the letter to Triumph UK, always good to tell the factory if the dealers standards slip
That was a good idea. Will do.
Quote from: "harre"That was a good idea. Will do.
update or has jobless lack of income cut into the plans?
I wrote to Triumph. One week later the local workshop phoned me and complained that I have contacted Triumph behind their back. He said that they could offer new shims, and that's all. I'm not satisfied with that. I want a refund for the whole valve job at least. I'm currently filing a complaint to the consumer rights organization. The answer will take a few weeks I guess. Writing to Triumph did not help my case, and I did not even get a written reply. Those guys need to work on their customer relations. The good news is that the Tiger engine is repaired now, I will pick it up next week. The marriage to the frame will have to wait since the frame is behind a wall of snow right now. I have full confidence in this other workshop (Suzuki) since the mech has worked with these Tigers back in the 90's. He has put in new sprag, adjusted the valves and cleaned the carbs. All for $680. Not cheap, but at least I have found a workshop that can service my bike instead of the Triumph guys. I am still unemployed though, so I'l have to cut down on other expenses. I'll be very happy when I hear the roar of the Tiger again. It will be worth the money.
brother harre, hows the bike comming along?
It's slowly coming together now. I have ordered a set of Tourances (back and front), these will be delivered from Reifenversand, Germany next week ($310). Last week I got a new chain, sprockets and chain tool from triumph-online, UK ($207). I am changing from 18 to 19 teeth of the ront sprocket. This should calm the Tiger a bit on the long runs.
Engine is now in place in the frame with the help from a friend. This was still a bit tricky. One thing that helped was to use ratchet tie down straps to lift the rear wheel. This makes it easy to adjust the position of the engine mounting lugs that are affected by the position of the swingarm. I have also bought some extra goodies: Pro Taper ATV Mid handlebars. A short shifter, so I can toss the SLOPPY linkage. To small extra lights to be attached where the horns are now. I'll post picts when I have mounted these things. I have also thought about re-routing the electrical wiring and fuse box that is now hidden under the luggage rack (what were they thinking?).
To make things even more inspiring, last week my brother traded his Honda VFR800 for a Girly (2003), and is now sending me pics of him exploring the many gravel roads back home in Arjeplog in northern Sweden. So, the Tiger is slowly coming alive, but I haven't started her yet. Maybe in one or two more weeks if everything goes smoothly. One thing that remains is to find a good luggage rack. I like the Five Stars Givi rack I have seen on some European Steamers, but I have never seen them on Ebay (UK, Germany). I will check my brothers Givi racks (PL725) and see how much re-building that will be necessary.
I'll keep you posted.
glad to hear to bike is comming along. good job 8)
I just came home after a trip to Norway with my brother (955i) and a buddy (1150GS). Bike runs really good. Lowest fuel consumption ever but still pretty good throttle response. Tried the 955i, and it felt a little lighter, with a smooth engine. That bike has a smarter and more purposeful design, but my Steamer had a crisper throttle response and looks rugged. So I'm still happy. What can be better than to ride with your buddies? The Steamer is now tested and found to be better than before! It has the same maximum distance as the GS with a 30 litre tank. Our friendship is restored.
Different story but same result. Lost the sprag this last weekend. The poor 97 Tiger is sidelined till repairs.
Spoke to the dealer and they wanted to know which Starter idler gear I had, 13 or 15 tooth. They could not determine it by the VIN. Does the difference have to do at all with early failures and the other is the replacement?
Going to start the process of getting the motor out of the bke and on the bench. I think I have to split it to get to the started idler gear to count the teeth.
Plan on ordering the seals and gaskets and Sprag. Is there anything else that should be measured to determine wear and replacement?
This should be interesting!! Dr. Mordo and Mustang might be hearing from me once I have gotten dead ended and need a tip or two to get out.
have a great 4th weekend!!
tom