I've got a '96 steamer, bought it off my friend this summer (so he could buy a new ktm) and have put about it had 14k miles on it when I bought it, and I put 6 k miles on it since then for a grand total of 20k. I took it from eugene oregon to New Mexico and have been on a few other overnighters and day rides and done a bunch of commuting with it as well.
So, steamers make some engine noise, that's why they call them steamers right?
When I saw the bike at my buddies house a few years ago he started it up and it sounded horrible, like an old john deer tractor, until he juiced the throttle up and it purred like a kitten.
Well it still makes that noise, that rattling diesel sound, up until you put it in gear and start to take off, then the rattle kind of picks up pace as you de-clutch and accleerate and then immediatley disapears and it is the smoothest sounding engine you can imagine, until you are going fast enough that all you can hear is the wind whipping past you at 80 or 90 miles an hour.
After reading about DAR (still not quite sure what it even is, something to do with the alernator?) I have become a bit worried, as well as the sprag horror stories.
Should I be worried, or am I just getting paranoid? :shock:
By the way, I love this freaking bike, it carves through the twisties like it's on train tracks, and eats up the gravel forrest service roads around here like they are candy. I've had a few low speed get offs in the dirt though, and it is def. a heavy bike to lift.
Well, I've done the sprag but not the DAR. The sprag will likely happen someday, but so will our sun going nova. It's not worth worrying about, just try to prevent it by keeping your battery fully charged all the time.
Your symptoms might be DAR. I think the best way to check is to pull the large right side engine cover. Inside is the clutch, but at the top left behind the clutch is the alternator sprocket assembly. If DAR is the problem, this thing will either look broken or will move when you pull on it. I wouldn't buy a gasket; I'd just clean the gasket surfaces and apply a layer of silicon sealant before I put it back together.
I think you definitely want to check it out. I seem to remember reading that DAR can become serious given enough time.
I've had a few drinks, so I hope this is both coherent and accurate.
It sounds like DAR. I had it. $150 in parts, and a couple of hours. If you're not mechanical, get someone who is to help. When I finish my finals and defense, I'm going to post a write up. Until I do, there are some partial writeups on the site.
A trick my brother (the professional mechanic) showed me, when I was wondering wether I really had the DAR, is to use a long screwdriver as a stethescope. With the engine idling, put the handle to your ear, and the business end somewhere on the case near the head. (this is where the standard diesel like noise would come from.) Have someone rev the engine. Then try the same with the screwdriver on the alternator. On mine, the rattle was much more pronounced on the alternator.
When I was wondering wether my bike had the DAR, the problem I ran into was everyone said the steamer was a naturally noisy bike especially at low rpms. Not having any other early ( <98 ) bike to compare to, I didn't know wether what I was hearing was the "noisy idle" or the DAR. If you have a local dealer that knows the older bikes, they could probably tell in 10 seconds.
Also, generally, the DAR doesn't cause any damage, it's just annoying. I read one person claiming that unfixed (for a long time) it could damage the alternator.
Finally, the short answer of what causes the DAR is this: a gear on the clutch side drives a toothed shaft through the engine to the alternator on the other side. This shaft is about 4 inches long and solid. A small bolt screws into each side. Because of the constant torsional strain, and the fact the the bolt strength is underspecced, the bolts have a habit of snapping. Because of the placement, they remain captive, and don't fall out. Instead they stay where they are and rattle. The replacement design is a hollow shaft with a lo.g higher spec bolt, and a nut on the opposite side.
Geof
you should hear what a half dozen of em sound like warming up before a ride !
Sounds like a truck stop on I 95 ........and the kid at the gas pump says the diesel pump is over there ! :ImaPoser
click here to find out why it's a steamer http://tigertriple.com/forum/index.php/topic,4212
Thanks for the help guys. I think I'll take it down to the dealer and have the mechanic take a listen, he loves it when you bother him for stuff like that.
If he says it's the DAR, I guess that the bike will be sidelined for the time being until I have the cash and time to get in there and wonk around a bit. Sounds like it would be expensive to have the shop do it eh?
A good indicator that you have some sheared bolts in the alternator drive (DAR) is that it rattles like hell under a throttle load (ya know actually riding it )up until about 3500 rpm then it all goes quiet !
The can full of rocks rattle that you hear when she is idling is because of the design of the motor . the cylinder liners are not pressed into anything they just sit on the casting and are held in place with the cylinder head , the coolant surrounds them andd you get to hear some wierd harmonics cuz the liners are NOT pressed into anything like a more conventional cylinder .
The girlies are the same way .
Makes it nice actually . you don't have to bore them out at rebuild time just replace em and get some new rings
Quote from: "Mustang"A good indicator that you have some sheared bolts in the alternator drive (DAR) is that it rattles like hell under a throttle load (ya know actually riding it )up until about 3500 rpm then it all goes quiet !
The can full of rocks rattle that you hear when she is idling is because of the design of the motor . the cylinder liners are not pressed into anything they just sit on the casting and are held in place with the cylinder head , the coolant surrounds them andd you get to hear some wierd harmonics cuz the liners are NOT pressed into anything like a more conventional cylinder .
The girlies are the same way .
Makes it nice actually . you don't have to bore them out at rebuild time just replace em and get some new rings
That's pretty much exactly what happens, it rattles while idling, then the rattle changes pitch as you start to accelerate, then all goes quiet at about 3500 rpm. Dammit. I need to put new fork springs and tires on it as well. Plus, while riding through arizona, I realized my low beams were not working anymore either (just high beams).
Right now I am kind of mulling over what to do with the bike. I got it for long distance touring, (I've got a KLR for local dirt and commuting etc.) and am thinking that something more reliable and newer may be in order. At the same time, I love the bike, it's only got 20k on it, I really bonded with it on the solo 4k mile ride I did with it (DAR and all) this summer.
If your bike is a 98 you may find that the problem is as simple as a loose or broken bolt on the alternator side and can be fixed real easy .
They are long distance beasts . they just need some lovin now and then .
nope, it's a '96.
The funny thing is that it has been doing the DAR for a long time, and at real low mileage. My buddy bought the bike making the same noise it is making right now, with like 10k on the odometer. I remember the day he bought it, because I came over and checked it out when he got home.
So it has had DAR for at least 10k miles!
If a Steamer makes DAR in the forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make DAR??????? :P
I did mine also and it is pretty easy to diagnose. As others stated the noise really appears to come from the top of the motor where the alternator is driven off the motor. It really helps if you know someone that you can listen to, wow! They are a bit noisy but nothing compares to the DAR.. Most dealerships do not know what they sound like because they have hardly fixed them and if they did they have not heard one in awhile, the two mine went to were confused so I took matters into my own hands. With a lot of help from people here.
Do you have a shop manual?? If not get one!! I removed my alternator and the bolt on the drive from the motor was intact so I thought yes,,, but it moved in and out a bit w/o resistance. Meaning the bolt on the clutch side was broken. I ordered the parts from my dealer and had them in about a week. The upgraded bolt kit is Triumph Part #T122-0800 (includes spindle, bolt, washers and nut). You will also need clutch cover and alternator gaskets and oil. The dealership will run you 400-600, depending on the hourly rate, plus the 150 you will spend in parts. If you have any mechanical skills and an impact wrench you are in. Besides, on your next 4k foray into the wilds you will be much more intimate knowing that you were insider her..
Read the dar fixes under wisdom and how to sticky.. I love mine and I am quite happy after the fix, now I have to get the rear shock to sasquatch.. :lol:
Quote from: "offtheback"Besides, on your next 4k foray into the wilds you will be much more intimate knowing that you were insider her..
:lol: That's a good one.
Well I've got the shop manual, the prob is that I don't have a shop. All I have is a small carport over a gravel driveway, it's a pain in the ass even changing the oil, let alone going inside to look for broken bolts. I may consider renting a storage space to do the job.
Plus WTF $150 bucks for some bolts and gaskets!! :shock: :shock:
:ImaPoser :ImaPoser
Scratch that, gaskets are extra!
Quote from: "Mr. Jetmoto"Plus WTF $150 bucks for some bolts and gaskets!! :shock: :shock:
:ImaPoser :ImaPoser
Scratch that, gaskets are extra!
Mostly, its for the alt drive shaft. If you look in our forsale, you'll see a DAR repair kit. Its a link to a closed ebay auction. The guy wanted $40 for the parts and it didn't sell. Try emailing him asking to relist it. I'd have bought it if I didn't just do the job on my bike.
Geof
Looks like he already relisted and it got bought, but that would have been a sweet deal.
Thanks for all the help guys. For right now, the bike is under cover until I find a place where i can do the repairs indoors, plus work is a bit slow right now so I need to wait to buy parts anyways.
At least i've got my klr to cruise around on in the meantime.
I'm sure I'll be looking for some pointers when I do the fix though, I've got to do a bunch of other stuff for her too (tires, fork springs, valve check, etc.)
I am going to add 1" spacers and put heavier wt oil in my forks. From what I gathered this pretty much does the same as the progressive forks for less $$$.. I think Mustang compared these alterations between his stable of bikes, paging Mustang...
Quote from: "offtheback"I am going to add 1" spacers and put heavier wt oil in my forks. From what I gathered this pretty much does the same as the progressive forks for less $$$.. I think Mustang compared these alterations between his stable of bikes, paging Mustang...
Spacer are basically static preload adjuster, right? If so, it's not quite progressives, but technically, progressives are kind of the opposite of what you want. Google cartridge forks and damping rod forks.
We have damping rod, which simply pushes oil through a fixed orifice. Their problem is that forks move slowly (gradual changes, slow speed) the oil flows freely, and the suspension feels soft. When the forks move fast (shark bump, rocks, potholes, high speeds) the forks try to move just as much fluid through the same opening, but at a much higher speed. Common sense says it provides more resistance at a higher speed, hence it feels hard or harsh.
This is exactly the opposite of what you generally want, it creates a soft boatlike float during mostly smooth riding, and harshness on bumpy roads, except when at low speeds. This matches up exactly with my impression of the steamer suspension. Progressive only exacerbates this: soft at first, harder later in the travel.
Cartridge forks do the best job byt essentially having a variable sized orifice that increases at high flow rates. Hard at slow speeds and soft with harsh bumps. Racetech makes cartridge inserts for the steamer. I haven't done it yet, but that and a better rear should make the steamer a dream to handle.
When I jump back and forth between my steamer and my KTM 950, the thing I notice most is the suspension quality.
Geof
BTW: they sell for $170 here:
http://www.racetech.com/evalving/englis ... me=english (http://www.racetech.com/evalving/english/Srchpr.asp?bikeid=491&manufacture=Triumph&model=Tiger+900&year=95%2D01&TABLEINFO=street&langname=english)
three steamers three different set ups for the forks .
She -who-must-be-obeyed bike is a 95 with Kayaba forks , give a real nice mushy comfy ride , they have the triumph progressive wound springs that USED to be an available option for the steamer .
Don't really notice any differance over the stock springs . The front end still dived like a kamikaze jap zero when you hit the front brake . So I went up to 15 weight oil in them with the progressive springs , doesn't dive as much now and the cushy glide over potholes ride at any speed is still there . SWMBO bike still has the shitty kayaba rear shock and if you push it in the corners tigger will weave and bobble ,kinda like the old 650 yamaha twins did , but it only happens when you are really spankin the ol girl in the turns , SWMBO doesn't ride like that so she is quite content having the marshmallow ride .
Tigger #2
This ones a 98 with Showa forks (which by the way are almost Identical to the Kayabas) stock springs , 1 inch of preload spacer and 15 or maybe I used 20 wt. can't remember , anyway they have heavier oil than triumph calls out (10 wt.)
The forks are pulled up in the trees about a half inch and the dive is still there under HARD front brake . but WOOHOO she is on a rail going thru turns , stable at speed above 100 mph too , unless you have panniers on . Tigger 2 also has a OHLINS rear shock instead of the shitty stock Showa . The Ohlins is so nice it is a match made in heaven for the steamer , it wasn't cheap though and they are no longer available for the steamer .
She'll carve corners with the best of them and still gives a decent pothole rutted dirt road ride .
Tigger #3
Bought this one this past summer and it has Showa stuff front and rear but has been reworked by Traxxion , have never had any decent rubber on her yet and she does like twistys and the front doesn't dive .........but
unless you are looking for a sportbike type of ride , I don't like it . Too friggin stiff , doesn't soak up the real world shit we have for roads in NH ,
frost heaves and potholes and town budgets that can't afford to repair the roads . This suspension is working out real well though for what I am using tigger 3 for . Hack duty , she can tug the side car without a lot of suspension movement that will upset the sidecar .
Tigger 3 I think has lost it's dual sport capability because of the cartridge emulators .
Tigger #2 gets my vote for the most bang for the buck .
It's a Tiger it is not supposed to be perfect at any one thing........... but capable of doing it all !
Moral of the story : Don't fuss over the forks , spend your money on the rear shock ! That's where the improvement for a steamer is .
YMMV
But if I had a steamer that needed suspension help I would send that POS rear shock to Sasquatch pronto !
+1 to that Mustang, best money I spent was a white power rear shock for my Girly, 10-15mph faster over any given road and no fuss at all, excellent.
I don't know, my steamer's front is pretty harsh on bumpy paved roads at 40+ mph. Compared to the katooms cartridge forks which float beautifully over washboarded dirt roads at 70+. Not disagreeing that the back needs work, but the front does too, IMO.
Geof
No that's also true Geoff, my front forks have heavier weight oil in them
Quote from: "abruzzi"I don't know, my steamer's front is pretty harsh on bumpy paved roads at 40+ mph. Compared to the katooms cartridge forks which float beautifully over washboarded dirt roads at 70+. Not disagreeing that the back needs work, but the front does too, IMO.
Geof
My CRF Honda has a front fork to die for if it was good for a heavier bike it would be on the steamer in a heartbeat . Short of doing a complete replacement though there really isn't anything that you do to a steamer forks that can match a set of forks that are "right"
your katoom , my honda .....we're talking dirt bikes , the katoom may be a little more road friendly but it's still a dirt bike and compared to a tiger it's like night and day
If your steamer is harsh on bumpy roads perhaps someone has already added some very heavy oil to them ?
or maybe the springs are 'sagged out' from age , it happens
just my .02 cents which aint worth shit anyway ................ :ImaPoser
Quote from: "Mustang"If your steamer is harsh on bumpy roads perhaps someone has already added some very heavy oil to them ?
or maybe the springs are 'sagged out' from age , it happens
Which brings up the next question, short of stock replacement parts, where can one go to get springs for the steamer? Ideally I'd like the option of going with a different spring rate if necessary.
Geof
Try sending an email off to these guys http://www.cannonracecraft.com/
I did a showa USD conversion for the wife's crf150 , the slug one not the new 'r'' ,
I used a set of forks from a cr80 and these guys had the springs to match the weight of the little piggy I put the forks on .
They claim if you can dream it race it or invent it they can spring it !
I was very happy with the way they worked out in the fork conversion I did !
I'm betting they can hook up your steamer to do what you want
Traxxion Dynamics did my front forks with cartridge emulators. I can loose sportbikes easily in the twisities, but the ride is pretty harsh so I'll probably lighten the oil for a bit of give.
Ohlins can be had for the rear but it will take around 90 days lead time for them to build you one.
I went for the Penske Racing rear shock custom built to my specs. from Traxxion.
The rear shock made my dirt road riding much more enjoyable by a factor of about 4, no shit. The front fork, I can use in the dirty washboardy roads, but I'm tough and I can adjust to the harshness. I LOVE the front forks on twisty paved stuff.
Unfortunately, suspension upgrades are EXPENSIVE and hard to undo, so make sure your Steamer is a keeper before you do this. Or buy someone else's bike who has done this already and is ready to ditch his Steamer for the first 990 ADV available (maybe me soon...stay tuned).