Ever since my 24,000 mile service (it seemed) last October, my bike just isn't making as much power at wide-open throttle.
At first I thought it may have just been the switch from a K&N air filter to a more restrictive stock Triumph filter. No changes were made to the throttle bodies, valve shims, or fuel system (just the filter).
Then I had another thought. As many here know, I had alternator / regulator trouble with my Girly out on the road last October. I was a good 20 miles from the nearest town when I noticed that my voltmeter was on 12.0 and dropping. I made a bee-line for the nearest major crossroads to find a motel where I could hole up.
I didn't want to shut the bike off until I was sure I could find a place, and sure enough, the first motel I stopped at was full. I went across the road to another and confirmed that they did have a room for me before I shut the bike down. By that time, the voltmeter read 9.5
I hauled the bike home in a rental truck. Then I did the 24,000 mile service that was due and replaced the stator and regulator. Voltage is now 14.5 above 2500 RPM. Good to go. In the interim, the bike was disassembled for about a month while I waited on parts and took my time doing the service.
I wondered if having the battery out of the bike for a month may have somehow corrupted the off-road tune programmed into the ECU.
It then occurred to me that I did run the bike for several minutes below 12.0 volts, culminating at 9.5 volts by the time I found a place to hole up. I didn't want to do it, but it was under extenuating circumstances.
When I roll the throttle on in high gear, nothing happens. I can hear a bit more intake noise from the throttles opening, but the bike just kind of sits there. It doesn't really stumble or cough, but the power does fall off until I bring the throttle back to normal. It's like the injectors simply don't throw the extra fuel in there, and opening the throttles creates a lean condition due to the excess air. It also doesn't idle well when cold.
Will running the bike at 9.5 volts corrupt the off-road tune? Or worse, have I damaged the ECU?
the syptom you are describing is exactly what a carbed bike does when it is too lean , when you had her all apart are you sure you don't have something amiss with the air box letting too much air in with the mix ?
My advice first off is get rid of that POS K&N. You can through a German Shepard through that thing.
Next, it seems you got a new tune: constant speed-variable noise! :lol:
Quote from: "JetdocX"My advice first off is get rid of that POS K&N. You can through a German Shepard through that thing.
Next, it seems you got a new tune: constant speed-variable noise! :lol:
I think he did.
Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 8:23 pm Post subject: Tune / ECU Question
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Ever since my 24,000 mile service (it seemed) last October, my bike just isn't making as much power at wide-open throttle.
At first I thought it may have just been the switch from a K&N air filter to a more restrictive stock Triumph filter. No changes were made to the throttle bodies, valve shims, or fuel system (just the filter).
I don't know that tunes are that volatile, but if you have a friendly triumph dealer, they can reload the tune quickly. If you have the TOR make sure you use the TOR map.
Geof
I do have the TOR pipe, with the TOR tune loaded by the dealer when I bought the pipe. They're two hours away, but if all I need to do is reload the TOR tune, that'd be fine.
The fuel starvation at Wide-Open Throttle and the poor cold idle seem to point to lean mixtures across the board. That's why I'm under the impression that the off-road tune (which makes for richer mixtures across the board) has been compromised, and the ECU is running the engine on a bit less fuel than before.
If it's not a fuel or software problem... air (quite a bit) would have to get past the throttle bodies somehow to create a lean condition at WOT on an injected bike. When the bike was apart, I didn't fiddle with the throttle bodies, and the airbox fitment really wouldn't have anything at all to do with the mixture. So I don't think it's a mechanical or vacuum issue.
I was just wondering if running the bike at such low voltage could have scrambled the code in the off-road tune, leaving the ECU to run in a default mode.
The bike runs well once it has warmed up for a couple minutes, which I do anyway. I've put a few hundred miles on her since October, and I only notice a change when I really put the spurs to 'er. When riding like a responsible adult, she's just fine.
Software is funny that way. Go get a remap and see what happens.
Just a shot in the dark, isn't there a sensor on the exhaust that regulates mixture? How about on the intake side?
Geof
I hate to say it but I would rip off the tank and check the seal around the airbox. Then I would have a good look around for something amis.
There is a Lambda (O2) sensor in the exhaust that helps the ECU figure the correct mixture. On the intake side, there is an Ambient Temperature Sensor, a Barometric Pressure Sensor, and possibly others that I'm forgetting right now.
The quirk in the whole equation for me is that the bike was running 9.5 volts when I shut it down, and I didn't start it again until I had finished the 24,000 service, so I'm trying to play detective here and figure if the trouble is a side effect of the regulator failure and subsequent way-too-low voltage, or if it's something that I did (or didn't do) during the service.
Damn, that was one sentence.
I don't think it could be the failure of an unrelated sensor. The timing of it would have to be too precise... that everything was fine until I first rode the bike after the service, and the sensor failed at that time. Too much of a coincidence.
This morning I talked with my bud at my fave local shop, NPR Ducati. He used to be the Parts Manager at Atlanta Triumph-Ducati and knows pre-2006 Triumphs like the back of his hand. I asked him if running the bike at 9.5 volts would cause problems with the tune program, and he answered "almost certainly".
He's gave me the number of the former Service Manager at Atlanta Triumph-Ducati, who has his own small shop now. He has his own Triumph tune-installing tool, so I'm going to see if he can reload the TOR tune for me.
As you may have gathered, there was quite a bit of upheaval at Atlanta Triumph-Ducati a few years back, and most of their folks left for greener pastures.
If you had a sensor failure, your check engine light would be on. I missed the part where you did the 24,000 mile service. It might help to recheck your work there with regard to gaskets and intake sealing before dragging it to the shop.
I don't believe it's a sensor failure either. I don't think they are so sensitive to voltage variations, in regard to their survivability. Naturally, sensors won't function correctly if they don't get the current they need.
Digital systems, on the other hand, such as the ECU, require specific, internally-regulated voltage at a specific frequency. When the input voltage drops below the ECU's internally-regulated operating voltage, something's got to give. In this case, it seems to be the software.
[/End Speculation]
Concerning intake leaks...
Some older fuel injection systems (such as Bosch Jetronic, and the copycat system used on '80's - 90's Fords) relied on a sealed airbox and Mass Air Sensor to meter the amount of fuel used, based on the amount of air flowing through the airbox (measured by the Mass Air Sensor, a glorified flowmeter). These systems are highly sensitive to intake and airbox leaks, as that would allow an unmeasured amount of air to enter the intake, essentially bypassing the Mass Air Sensor without permission...
The Mass Air Sensor detects x cubic feet per minute of air flowing into the intake, and directs the Fuel Distributor to send a precise amount of fuel to the injectors based on that airflow and sensed intake vacuum. But with an intake leak, there is in fact x + CFM of air entering the intakes, and the Mass Air Sensor is simply unaware of the surplus. All it knows is to supply the amount of fuel based on the x CFM figure, and the engine runs lean, since it's getting too much air for the amount of fuel going through the injectors.
But...
The fuel injection system used on Girly Tigers instead utilizes a Throttle Position Sensor, which meters fuel according to the position of the throttle butterflies themselves. There is no Mass Air Meter, and as long as the TPS is properly calibrated (and the throttle bodies are not modified, i.e., enlarged), the ECU meters the correct amount of fuel based on the TPS position, O2 sensor, Atmospheric Pressure, Ambient Temperature, etc. This type of system is not sensitive to airbox leaks, as there is nothing in the airbox that measures the air flowing through it, and a poor seal means little more than the ingress of dirt where it ought not be. The airbox itself does little more than hold the air filter and the temperature and barometric pressure sensors, while keeping dirt out. You could drill holes in the airbox, and the fuel map wouldn't change.
I didn't fiddle with the throttle bodies, so they wouldn't have developed leaks from disturbing the gaskets. I also had a thought that the Throttle Position Sensor might be out of calibration, but that seems unlikely since the bike had run perfectly until I ran the battery to nearly nothing. I don't believe that doing so would affect the TPS once proper voltage was reestablished. I'm holding out for a TOR remap to replace the one I compromised by running the bike at less than 10 volts.
Thanks for letting me bounce ideas off you. Several heads are better than one.
Stay tuned...
Extraordinarily bad pun.
What you are saying makes sense (but only to another geek :ImaPoser ) and it sounds like the ecu has gone to limp home mode . It will run and get you there but not like it should , funny though I would have thought a check engine light would come on when the electronics are compromised , please let us other geeks know what you find ! :D
(http://blog.bluefur.com/images/gotw.jpg)
Quote from: "Mustang"What you are saying makes sense (but only to another geek :ImaPoser ) and it sounds like the ecu has gone to limp home mode . It will run and get you there but not like it should , funny though I would have thought a check engine light would come on when the electronics are compromised , please let us other geeks know what you find ! :D
That's what I thought as well, although I have never seen any documentation on the limp home mode.
Try this:
go out DO not touch anythign on the bike, start it ( no touchy throttle or any inputs)
let the bike idle, it should eventually kick on the fan, but let it idle for at least 12 or more minutes past teh fan kicking on and back off...
Id have t research the technique since I haven't done it in a while...used to work wonders on my sprint
this will reset the computer and it will re read the sensors..
when you shut it off/ had a problem what altitude were you at?
and what are you at now?
it may still be running on its last setting ( its in the short memory)
if you had a tune boy you could adaptive reset it.
Thanks, Regulator.
I was at about 1000' elevation when I drained all the voltage out of the system, and am at about 750' here, so the elevation change shouldn't make a hell of a lot of difference to the Barometric Pressure Sensor, I think. But then, if the voltage was way low, the sensors wouldn't read correctly, would they? Hmmmmm...
One of my Triumph gurus, the former Service Manager at Atlanta Triumph-Ducati, told me to give the "12-minute-tune" a whirl. I just talked with him a while ago, so I'll try it in the morning. From talking with him, this is what's required to make the ECU self-adapt. This is the starting point. He told me that if this doesn't do the trick, to bring him the bike and let him reload the TOR tune.
Thanks for the tip.
By the way, he told me that Atlanta Triumph-Ducati closed its doors in November.
Here is some info from a Rocket 3 forum, I've also done this with my sprint before.. I know use my tuneboy and just hit one button and it does the same thing...
1. Start the motor from cold without touching the throttle.
2. Let it idle until the fan cuts in.
3. Let it idle for a further 12 minutes.
4. Switch it off, job done.
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What does 12 minute tune accomplish ??
The 12 minute tune is actually used , per Triumph shop manual , to acclimate ECM to different altitudes and climates. If you bought the bike in Jersey and stay in Jersey, there is no need for the "12 Minute" tune....... :tasty:
Drago is right... but there is more.. if you go to page 11.133 of the shop manual it goes on to say you may need to do it if you have installed a new part (Like an exhaust system) that has different characteristics than the old part.
The engine management system is adaptive, and should operate from a fixed base line within a ceratin parameter. If you go outside these parameters... like moving from Vail, Colorado to Miami Beach, you may need to reset the base... ie do the 12 minute tune. If you mess with certain sensors (and I'm not going to tell you which ones) you will need to do the 12 minute tune. The 12 minute tune forces the ecm to make adaptive changes.
As Disco so perfectly stated... if you use the kill switch the ecm may loose its ability to "remember" its last settings, but that will sort itself out if you cease to use the kill switch after 3 running cycles. This is because you really haven't changed the baseline settings. It will "find its way" so to speak. I advised pbbeck to try the 12 minute tune soley because it is about the only thing he can do at home without test equipment... and he really can't hurt anything by trying it. The only way this will fix his problem is if the problem was caused by a sensor wiring harness having an intermitant open circuit which may cause the ecm to think that the baseline had changed. You can have an open circuit without throwing a check engine light if that open circuit is brief and isn't duplicated by the ecm.
Anyway... everyone is right.. I think.. :-D :-D except for me who is always wrong...
But you shouldn't do the 12 minute tune just because you feel like it or you think you might get 1.2 extra horsepower out of it. As soon as you do it the ecm starts to "adapt" itself right back to where you were originally...
:-D whew :-D
Aaaahhh... that explains the 'Don't Use The Kill Switch' axiom that I've heard, but never have had explained. I've been using the key switch to kill the engine because of this, but no one could explain exactly why.
Thanks.
and yes the Atlanta shop cloesed, but I heard a new north ga shop opened ( moto 400?)
and of course Augusta Triumph is still kicking...
Lucky for me the same stuff that worked on my 2001 Sprint works on my rocket and my Tiger...
I didn't know about ATD until Mike told me this evening. I do all my own work, and order parts from elsewhere...
yeah, the newest one is Moto400 up in Dawsonville... http://www.moto400.com/ (http://www.moto400.com/)
Too far from me, but Flux will be happy.
I did the '12-minute tune' this afternoon, with no appreciable difference in top-end performance. But that's cool, this was just the starting point for the ECU diagnostics. I'll have the TOR tune reloaded soon. If that doesn't do the trick, it must be the more restrictive stock air filter keeping big air from flowing at Wide-Open Throttle. I had gotten used to the K&N (installed by the previous owner), so if reduced WOT is the price to pay for better filtration when riding in dust (which I do frequently), so be it.
This is great info Stretch!
I have a K&N in my bike and am waiting to see what you find out. I just purchased it with the K&N already installed, so i am not much help for you to compare differences.
I am pretty much a pavement pounder so the dust is not much worries for me ! :5moped
Thanks. I'll keep this thread updated.
Pretty sure my bike is stock style airfilter..
has TOR and tor Tune ... no issues with wide open
Unless you've run that particular bike with a high-flow filter, you've nothing to compare it to.
Well, I finally rode down to Augusta (Georgia) Triumph-Ducati last weekend and had them reload the Off-Road Tune....
That fixed it. The throttle response and mid-range power are back. I guess the previous download had become corrupted when I ran the bike's voltage so low, and the ECU went into some sort of default mode.
I had made an appointment with ATD a few days earlier, and he jumped right on it as soon as I arrived Saturday morning. Super-nice and very helpful folks.
I'm glad to hear that it was a simple fix. I was just searching the forum with a similar problem with my bike. I don't have a TOR pipe (Stock pipe) but for me there is little mid-range power. All my power seems to be at 6k and up. 5th and 6th gear roll-on is very poor and my bike won't pull 6th above about 8k rpm.
I plan to have the updated software loaded into my '99 to see if it helps. I hate to spend a ton on diagnostics before giving it a try.