Hopefully one for Stretch or Mustang....
I'm doing my TB balancing sometime this week and have an idea for a very low cost balancing tool which hopefully matches the performance criteria of commercial products costing £40 -£60. If it works, I'll post it up here.
In the meantime, and so that I can buy some before I pull her apart, what internal diameter hose do I need to connect to the TBs please?
Thanks guys!!!
Quote from: "Bixxer Bob"what internal diameter hose do I need to connect to the TBs please?
1/4-inch.
Bear in mind that the ports in the Girly throttle bodies are not vacuum ports, but are the engine's sole source of air at idle. The throttle valves themselves are completely closed at idle, with flexible hoses running from the ports to the Idle Air Controller and Stepper Motor.
You're going to need to run the idle up in order to take some of the vacuum away from the ports. Otherwise, the ports will have too much vacuum and the fluid in the manometer will be sucked into the engine.
Anywho, brief instruction for balancing throttle bodies...
Remove the fuel tank... http://tigertriple.com/forum/index.php/msg,32393 (http://tigertriple.com/forum/index.php/msg,32393)
And the airbox... http://tigertriple.com/forum/index.php/topic,5146 (http://tigertriple.com/forum/index.php/topic,5146)
Then re-install the battery and improvise a way to run the bike with the tank off... http://tigertriple.com/forum/index.php/topic,5749 (http://tigertriple.com/forum/index.php/topic,5749) and http://tigertriple.com/forum/index.php/topic,6321 (http://tigertriple.com/forum/index.php/topic,6321)
The Triumph manual states to run the engine at 1200 RPM. A cruise control o-ring would be handy to hold the throttle steady... http://tigertriple.com/forum/index.php/topic,4599 (http://tigertriple.com/forum/index.php/topic,4599)
Unplug the flexible hoses from the small intake (vacuum) ports and connect the Carbtune tool.
The throttle body for Cylinder #1 (far left) is not adjustable. The other throttle bodies are adjusted to match the setting of Cylinder #1. Note that adjusting any one cylinder will slightly affect the other two.
Keeping the engine speed at around 1200 RPM, set both adjusters so that all three throttle bodies have an equal vacuum reading.
No photos, I'm afraid. I just copied these instructions from the Triumph manual. But once the bike's apart, you'll see it's not too difficult with the proper tools (Carbtune).
I use one of these and it was well worth the money
balancing throttle bodies or carbs is a 5 minute deal .
it has no liquid to be sucked up and is deadly accurate
you need to use the tiniest id hose you can find to restrict the vaccum or your homemade one will fluctuate so badly you will bin it and buy the carbtune by morgan
(http://www.carbtune.co.uk/Images/SSL11411SC.jpg)
see the short length of white hose in the pic ....with the morgan carbtune you cut that to the length they dictate and put a pc in between the regular 1/4 inch black stuff , the ID of the white hose is like needle small . without it the vacuum is far too great .
Quote from: "Stretch"1/4-inch.
Bear in mind that the ports in the Girly throttle bodies are not vacuum ports, but are the sole source of air at idle. The throttle valves themselves are completely closed at idle, with flexible hoses running from the ports to the Idle Air Controller and Stepper Motor.
You're going to need to run the idle up in order to take some of the vacuum away from the ports. Otherwise, the ports will have too much vacuum and the fluid in the manometer will be sucked into the engine.
:ImaPoser Or if I actually did that :BangHead
My idea involves fluid, but not a lot of it. I had, however - and as a precautionary measure until I get it working - foreseen this possibility and so planned a fluid trap with a capacity greater than that being used, so none would get as far as the engine - same principle as the airlock you get for wine making if you've ever done that, except I'll use a fuel tank from a model airplane I have kicking around somewhere.
Quote from: "Stretch"The throttle valves themselves are completely closed at idle, with flexible hoses running from the ports to the Idle Air Controller and Stepper Motor.
As much as I knew this, it strikes me now that by using one port for my cruise control I'm only running on the remaining 2 cylinders at idle. Above idle this isn't an issue as the throttle plates are open. Is this inviting a problem at idle or causing an imbalance somehow?
If you didn't notice the bike idling poorly when you first performed the mod, it's possible that the throttle body port is pulling adequate idle air through the cruise control's vacuum system.
As you said, the only ill effects would be felt at idle, as the idle intake pulses would flatten out as soon as the butterflies open.
If it bugs you, you might install a Tee that will allow you to run both the cruise control vacuum hose and the Idle Control Valve's flex hose.
Bixxer,
I balanced my TBs with about 8meters of clear tubing from my local hardware store. I nailed the midpoint of the tube to the lowest point of the wall. The top nail is six feet above the bottom nail. The remaining tube length goes to the bike. I've tried dyed water, viscosity too low, 2 stroke oil, too high, and I'm currently using ATF, still too high. It works well.
If you come up with a way to trap water from being pulled into your engine, then I'd use water as it is the most sensitive. I really would only have a problem with that if the hose came undone from the throttle body.
Stretch is right about the idle though. It will take a bit of throttle to start the bike and then a bit more to keep the bike running. A cruise control helps immensely with this!
good luck!
Doesn't Tuneboy work for this?
I think I saw that on my Rocket when I had it opened last...
Quote from: "REGULATOR"Doesn't Tuneboy work for this?
I don't think so. A Tuneboy only has an ECU cable, yes?
Balancing the throttle bodies is done with hoses affixed to the throttle body idle ports, and then turning adjustment screws to match the vacuum readings across the three throttle bodies.
Some people have said that Tuneboy will show the depressions across the throttle bodies but I must say I've never worked out how that might work.
Hi guys, this'll be on hold a couple of weeks owing to me getting a blue-light ride to hospital and the Girly being at a friend's house. As soon as I'm allowed to go get her I'll be back on track. Not an accident btw, just a chest pain scare. I'm ok but house bound for a bit.
Quote from: "mrazekan"Bixxer,
I balanced my TBs with about 8meters of clear tubing from my local hardware store. I nailed the midpoint of the tube to the lowest point of the wall. The top nail is six feet above the bottom nail. The remaining tube length goes to the bike. I've tried dyed water, viscosity too low, 2 stroke oil, too high, and I'm currently using ATF, still too high. It works well.
If you come up with a way to trap water from being pulled into your engine, then I'd use water as it is the most sensitive. I really would only have a problem with that if the hose came undone from the throttle body.
Stretch is right about the idle though. It will take a bit of throttle to start the bike and then a bit more to keep the bike running. A cruise control helps immensely with this!
good luck!
I plan to balance one body against the next rather than a weight of fluid. this should be easy enough as shown below with the fluid traps to stop anything being drawn into the engine.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c273/BixxerBob/watertrap.jpg)
As the idle speed needs air from these points, I was thinking about bridging the two pipes and adding a bleed air valve like this:
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c273/BixxerBob/watertrap2.jpg)
My physics is a bit rusty, but I think, if I have the valve completely closed she'll not idle and will need the throttle cracking open a whisker. If I have it fully open she won't idle - too much air. So I'll start with it closed. Provided the bodies are somewhere close the fluid should go off-centre and adjustment bring should bring it back. I'll then start to open the valve until she idles correctly and then adjust them again. Once the valve is set it shouldn't need touching again. If I can't find a valve sensitive enough, I'll try sealing the end then drilling progressively larger holes until I get it right. I have some watchmakers drills so should be able to get it right. I also haven't worked out what to do with the third body while I'm doing the first two, maybe connect it to the idle valve and blank off the other two idle valve pipes??
Maybe I should just get my wife to buy me a set of gauges like Mustang's for my birthday.... :roll:
Quote from: "Bixxer Bob"Maybe I should just get my wife to buy me a set of gauges like Mustang's for my birthday.... :roll:
yep , neat and tidy and they work and the price isn't that bad , best money I ever spent for bike maintenance
It's only £55 and available here http://www.carbtune.co.uk/
Well, I had a go at this today and, to keep it short, it was a spectacular failure :oops:
Luckily I'd put the fluid traps in place and used some fairly thick oil because my TBs were so far out (or - this setup was so sensitive) that it all shot into one fluid trap on the starter even before the engine fired. :shock: With her running the pulsing from the engine wasn't being damped at all so it was impossible to read a level. :BangHead
:XXcomputer Carbtune gauges are now in the post.... :eusa_dance
Quote from: "REGULATOR"Doesn't Tuneboy work for this?
Tuneboy will read the pressures sent to the ECU from sensors in the manifolds but only on the Keihin injection systems. On our Girlies we have SAGEM injection systems and it doesn't have the necessary sensors so Tuneboy will not work for this.
Bixxer,
What's needed here is a proper mercury manometer like the original Morgan Carbtune. This is a closed system with a vacuum at one end and the engine connected at the other with the mercury in the middle, so the mercury will not be sucked into the engine because the closed vacuum will always overcome the suck from the engine.
the newer carbtune works great - I bought one a while back. Annoying to keep the idle up with the idle air solenoid off the bike.
The new carbtune comes with dampers.... although, after seeing what they are, you could make your own for the other fluid setup you were trying to do...
Quote from: "blacktiger"Quote from: "REGULATOR"Doesn't Tuneboy work for this?
Tuneboy will read the pressures sent to the ECU from sensors in the manifolds but only on the Keihin injection systems. On our Girlies we have SAGEM injection systems and it doesn't have the necessary sensors so Tuneboy will not work for this.
Bixxer,
What's needed here is a proper mercury manometer like the original Morgan Carbtune. This is a closed system with a vacuum at one end and the engine connected at the other with the mercury in the middle, so the mercury will not be sucked into the engine because the closed vacuum will always overcome the suck from the engine.
:lol: I new that!!
Rather than an outright manometer ( where can you buy mercury these days?? ) I was trying to do it on the cheap. this setup working as a comparator is fine in theory, but the TBs were just too far out to get it to work. It would probably work for fine tuning, but I need to get the job done. It killed a couple of hours anyway..
Oh, and running the bike with the tank on the table threw up two fault codes - Airbox sensor fault and fuel level sensor fault (no surprises there then) but cleared them with my trusty OBD2 gear!! That kit is proving to be quite useful...
Cheers!
Quote from: "Bixxer Bob"Oh, and running the bike with the tank on the table threw up two fault codes - Airbox sensor fault and fuel level sensor fault
Huh. I didn't know it would do that. When I had my tank beside the bike, I already had a Check Engine Light on from jump-starting it earlier, so I wouldn't have noticed any new faults without checking it with OBD2 (which I don't have).
Alright so I'm half through balancing my TB's. I've been having trouble accidently moving the throttles while adjusting the screws and I keep killing it. No big deal except all the restarting killed the battery, so I'ts on the charger now :(
While I wait, I'm looking at the throttle possition sensor (is this the stepper motor?) and it's filthy... do I just need to wipe it down or is there a way to clean it more thoroughly... if that's nessassary?
EB,
I made a wrap around my throttle with a bungee and secured the other end of bungee in a location that made it tight to keep my throttle in place for the adjustments. Worked great........just and idea. I cleaned the outside of the sensor when I had things apart but did not take it apart to clean the insides.
good luck,
EB, the Throttle Position Sensor is on the right side of the throttle shaft itself (on the right side of the #3 Throttle Body).
The Stepper Motor / Idle Air Control Valve is above and between the #1 and #2 Throttle Bodies, with the three flex hoses coming out of it.
Unbolt the Stepper Motor and disassemble it (mind the o-ring) and clean it up inside and out. Be sure the rubber seal goes back on the outside (seals against the airbox).
Oh I have a ring from stretch that did the job, but I was having to press on both side of the set screws to get enough force to turn them. I got it done. Begining reassymbly!
I'm getting better at this... only took my 7 minutes to tear it completely down :D
I took video and pictures so I'll write up a how too on TB balancing soon.
Oh crap. Somehow I missed your post Stretch.
Man about gave myself a heart attack when I read it. I was talking about the Idle Air Control Valve when I was referring to the Throttle Position sensor, so when you said the TPS was on the end of #3 I thought I had damaged it by not removing it when I did the TB balance.
BUT, I did remove the Stepper Motor / Idle Control Valve so thats all well and fine, but I've already reinstalled the ICV after just wiping it down. Wishing I had waited to read your post, but I was trying to beat Engle (dealer) closing so I could go get the TOR map done... missed it by 30 minutes though.
Oh well. One more maintenance item done, and I need to figure out this exhaust leak anyway.
Thanks guys.