I put my Girly into the dealer after some rough running, wanting a remap. Initially he couldn't get a map to take, so I took her home, removed the O2 bypass and took it back. He did the remap no problem and went on to balance the TBs as we agreed. He said after an hour's work she was running real sweet. Then she cut out and wouldn't start. Then she started and cut out, and so on. Also, with ign on but engine not started the rev counter shows 4000rpm. Investigation when she won't start shows fuel pressure and spark, but the injectors are not functioning, and I mean all three, not just one. As I have electrical farckles, dealer is reluctant to burn my cash looking for the fault, so suggested I take her home, strip out the farkles and then try to trace the fault. He said he'll help with manual references etc where I need them for free so he's being very fair I think. (unless of course he blew my ECU and isn't owning up to it, but I don't think so). He suggested going round all the ground connections first and making sure they're clean and good. Which I'll do when I get her back in the morning.
Meanwhile, I've been scanning the Haynes wiring diagram and have deduced that the injectors have a live supply coming from the ECU relay and go to ground through the ECU, so first check will be contacts on the ECU relay. I noticed too that the ECU has an always-on supply from the ECU relay coil which it must ground to kick in the injector supply and the supply to the cooling fan. What I can't trace so far is how the ECU knows when the ingnition switch is turned on. Any electrics gurus out there know how this works? My second check will be ECU earths and then plugs/ connectors etc.
Wish me luck, as I REALLY hope this is not a faulty ECU.... :roll:
Can anyone positively identify the ECM relay for me please, nor sure where it is.... I think it's one of the ones near the ECM but not sure.
Quote from: "Bixxer Bob"(edit)
Meanwhile, I've been scanning the Haynes wiring diagram and have deduced that the injectors have a live supply coming from the ECU relay and go to ground through the ECU, so first check will be contacts on the ECU relay.
Agreed. It is typical in most automotive systems to switch the earth. Meaning the systems control the (negative wire) connection which is usually to a frame part.
They do this because the frame is effectively one great big wire and it saves on putting separate earth (negative) wires into the looms, as this would make the looms about twice the size they are now. (also saves on weight and cost)
The earth connections are therefore more critical than we often imagine because they are not actually all connected at the same point. Dirt, corrosion and general wear and tear can mean some of these earth points are not actually very well (electrically) connected to the actual battery negative point.
So yes check the earthing wires from the ECM back to the point they attach to the frame/battery.
QuoteI noticed too that the ECU has an always-on supply from the ECU relay coil which it must ground to kick in the injector supply and the supply to the cooling fan. What I can't trace so far is how the ECU knows when the ingnition switch is turned on. Any electrics gurus out there know how this works? My second check will be ECU earths and then plugs/ connectors etc.
OK, soo I'm on the Haynes book as well... bear with me as I write it down to work it thru:
-ECM relay is activated by an earth appearing on F3 of the ECU
-Power on the Ignition switch comes via the Main fuse. When switched on, the power is switched to the following: Kill Switch, Headlight fuse and Instrument fuse.
If you follow the Green/red from the kill switch you'll find it terminates at pins 2 & 4 on the Alarm Connection Plug (after going thru the fuse block)
I'm betting there is a shorting plug plugged into this connector that connects 2 & 4 to pins 1 & 3, with 3 supplying the ECM at E1.
Using a connector like this would make it easy to fit an immobiliser because it simply breaks this supply line.(which also goes elsewhere)
If you look at the other connector pins you can see that 6 is (probably) an always on supply, which would power the alarm. 7 & 8, if linked to a supply (thru a relay in the alarm unit) would bring on all your indicators. 5 appears to be an earth as are 9 & 12, there is probably an earth connection to the jumper plug.
QuoteWish me luck, as I REALLY hope this is not a faulty ECU.... :roll:
Soo you just have to find that connector and see if you are getting volts on 2 & 4 when you turn the key, and there is a link to 1 & 3.... I'm guessing its somewhere under the seat. I haven't checked this on my girl as she's not an easy reach right now.
Quote from: "Bixxer Bob"Can anyone positively identify the ECM relay for me please, nor sure where it is.... I think it's one of the ones near the ECM but not sure.
Its a good place to start.....
Its drawn differently to the other relays so may be identifiable by its markings. And should be in that area to ensure the supply line from the battery is short and 'clean'.
Thanks for that mate.
It appears the ECM power relay is the furthest to the rear of the two next to the fuse box. And it's ok. And she's running!!!
Had a good day at her today. The dealer managing to remap her before she played up seems to have sorted out the corrupted map from when it failed the first time. She runs fine now - well at least in the garage anyway.
First thing I noticed after I trailered her home (bit embarassing for the dealer that, a customer trailering a bike away from them unfixed) was he'd run the battery down while working on her - only about 11.3 volts. Wouldn't even make the Stebel fart ler alone shriek.
After 4 hrs on charge, hooked it up, ran her up and she runs fine so far.
One problem hasn't gone away though. As soon as you turn the ingnition on the rev counter jumps to 3800 rpm then runs up from there as if that was zero. I've checked the output from the ECM using my OBD2 software and it's correct, so it's either a fault in the wiring or the counter itself. I've also taken of all my farkle wiring for now. It needed a re-design anyway so I'll sort that next week because I'm off to Donington for the Moto GP tomorrow. You have to see Rossi race once eh?
Hey... its always simpler than it seems...
Especially once its sorted.
Surprised the shop didn't hook a battery mate or similar to the bike if it was just sitting in the shop 'key-on' for that long without running. I take it you'll let them know.
And yes to seeing Rossi, saw him in Valencia a few years back.... nothing more to say.
So I've replaced the battery, she seems to run ok, can't get to the bottom of the rev counter issue yet, but that can wait. Whilst scanning the ECM with my OBD reader, I noticed something else perculiar. The dealer said she was running rich but didn't know why. I found that the throttle position sensor reads 11.4% at tickover. I guess the ECM thinks the engine is working harder than it is an so hoofs in more fuel - which would explain lumpy tickover and surging at low revs, not to mention popping on overrun.
Can anyone with a Triumph manual tell me what the tickover TPS reading should be? The idiot guess is zero but I'd like to be sure.
I also read somewhere that the dealer can test the rev counter via the OBD so maybe he inadvertently set it at 4k and that's why it's still reading that high - lets face it my confidence in him is not high since he told me my battery was ok....
I think I'm gonna buy a Tuneboy and fix this sucker myself - one way or another.
The manual doesn't list, or even mention, hard numerical values. All the tests listed are pass / fail items to be run through the Triumph® Diagnostic Tool.
Hmm, wonder how the stealer sets it up..... CO percentage in the exhaust maybe?
Thanks Stretch.
Had a good reply over on RAT from a guy who had a reading of 15% reset to zero with good results - worth a read.
Link please?
Sorry :oops:
http://www.triumphrat.net/tiger-worksho ... ensor.html (http://www.triumphrat.net/tiger-workshop/116980-throttle-position-sensor.html)
Guess he owns a green one....
Still though, how do they measure that value? Exhaust gas analysis, or from calibrated readings from the TPS / ECU, through the diagnostic tool?
Stretch,
What I've been able to find out (hours of googling) so far is that Triumph use the standard OBD2 interface as required by world-wide motor vehicle standards brought in (I think) in 2003. So, any OBD2 software will read the stored values in the open area of the ECM. However, Triumph use non-OBD standard software commands for test/analysis hence having to use the stealer's gameboy - and Triumph only supply it to authorised dealers. Until Wayne at Tuneboy came along and hacked the Sagem ECM now you can buy a Tuneboy and do everything yourself that the dealer can do. But I haven't got one yet so park that idea for a minute. Generic OBD2 software won't do remaps though. Whereas Tuneboy will.
What you can do with generic OBD2 software is read some of what's going on inside the ECM. From memory, I can get:
Absolute throttle position (mine's 11.4% at idle, which doesn't seem right)
Intake air temp
Coolant temp
RPM
Short term O2 adjustment (3.2% on mine)
Ignition advance
Also you can read fault codes and clear them, negating the need for 3 warmup cycles.
For about $20 you can order an adaptor cable and a CD full of software from Ebay. I found many progs on the CD did the same thing, and it took ages to read through it all looking for the best version. The ELM327 protocol seems to work for Triumphs, the simplest to understand was Scantool from scantool.net. Software is free, but after version 1.13 they stopped supporting any adaptor cable but their own so you can't update.
Another useful version was Digimoto from digimoto.com mine's v4.03
Hope that helps!!
BB
So far I've expended £90 on the dealer for screwing up my bike for me. Another similar amount on a spare ECM and £260 on a Tuneboy (yet to arrive).
Progress so far - the ECM was a SAGEM S1000 same as the Tiger, but from a 955i Daytona. Plugged it in tonight and hey presto, the rev counter problem goes away. And she runs on the Daytona map, although she won't tick over. Throttle response was pin sharp though and sounded aggresive. (Daytona has different cams and way more fuel added and ignition advance than the Tiger so I'm surprised she ran at all really). So when the Tuneboy arrives, I'll remap my ECM and keep the Daytona one as a spare.
All this because the dealer couldn't identify that my battery was shot and loaded a corrupt map three times before he gave up. Did I say originally I thought he was being reasonable???? Yeh right!!!
He's cost me close on £500 and many hours of my time to fix something he did. Tahnkfully, I didn't let him persuade me I needed a new ECM!!! Problem is I can't prove any of this because he insists it was my farkles that introduced the problem. Only thing I don't understand is he used a jumper battery while he was working on the remaps, so I guess not only did he not spot my battery was u/s, but he didn't spot his own is a dud as well.
Oof. It's so hard to find a good dealer.
Not Good BB... You may be right about the state of his battery but it is more likely related to the way he connected it to your bike... you know sparks and arcs and surges.... Theres sensitive bits ensconced in an ECM which can easily be befuddled by bad power.
Of course a manufacturer can design and engineer these things to minimise the likelyhood of that, but they only go soo far.... it's a money thing... :?
Some years back I was wandering thru Leicester Square and spied a van full of Geeks with far too many aerials on it, all pointing at a Picture theatre. Just a little intrigued I asked the bloke outside having a fag what was going on... He told me they were going around the country gathering 'background noise levels' (this in an electrical and RF sense) so that ECM designers could take these into account and cater for them in their designs. Essentially to ensure that when you drove your box past say a shopping center, airport, radio-station, celltower etc that the ECM unit didn't get confused by the 'noise' and do something silly like accelerate, brake or deploy the airbags....
The really interesting, and relevant bit, in all this. These blokes were funded by ECM and vehicle manufacturers to identify the problem and come up with a solution that had a per unit (vehicle) cost of......
....under 50p ($1).
Quote from: "oxnsox".. He told me they were going around the country gathering 'background noise levels' (this in an electrical and RF sense) so that ECM designers could take these into account and cater for them in their designs.
Yup, with certain Range Rover immobiliser & alarm systems of the early 00's, it's known if you drive into certain filling stations the car wouldn't start due to interference from the radio controlled remote price signs (cost of petrol going up as fast as it did :evil: ). Some owners found out the hard way that if they pushed the vehicle off the forecourt to clear the pump for others that suddenly it started again :?: I believe LR sorted it once they knew what caused it.
I am of the firm opinion that the reason there are fewer UFO sightings now is because the alien ECM's are all screwed from the leaked radio crap in our atmosphere :lol:
Quote from: "Sin_Tiger"I am of the firm opinion that the reason there are fewer UFO sightings now is because the alien ECM's are all screwed from the leaked radio crap in our atmosphere :lol:
Makes sense. The infamous 'Roswell Incident' occurred just a few years after the beginning of radio broadcasts of soap operas. Poor devils.
Quote from: "Stretch"Makes sense. The infamous 'Roswell Incident' occurred just a few years after the beginning of radio broadcasts of soap operas. Poor devils.
:lol: :lol: I always thought 'Neighbours" was the work of Satan :oops:
Reminds me of an incident with neighbours a couple of years ago. All neighbours within about 50 yards of where I live started to have problems with their car locking remotes and some cars wouldn't start until pushed up the road a bit. Eventually, unbeknown to me, one neighbour called OFCOM (interference investigators in the UK) bloke turned up on my doorstep accusing me of blazing out RF on 433mhz and 2.4ghz (public frequencies). I invited him in because it's my job in the military to know a bit about this stuff. He couldn't find anything that might be the culprit, but I persuaded it might be next door on the adjacent wall. Neither of us could explain the dual frequencies though.
Neighbour was helpful and he quickly identified the source. Neighbour had bought a video sender so her son could watch satellite tv in his bedroom (takes output from the satellite box and transmits it on 2.4 ghz to receiver module upstairs. It was faulty and pushing out loads of sideband white noise which would interfere with car ECMs. One half of the problem solved then. A bit more investigation revlealed that the module incorporated a tv remote function back to the satellite box downstairs. This was jammed on continuous transmit - on 433mhz!!! Hence the remote locking probs. Neighbour took it back to the dealer and had it replaced and all the problems went away.
Having hijacked my own thread, I thought I should get back to the subject in hand. After three weeks, I'm now back to where I started before the dealer screwed up big time, including I fixed the errant rev counter.
In the last couple of days, my Tuneboy arrived and that, plus hours of reading everything I can about the Sagem S1000 ECM (there's loads of good info on the Tuneboy site for starters) I have drawn the following conclusions:
1. The dealer's a dick.
2. The rev counter reading 4k with the engine stopped was caused by an incorrect (note not corrupt) map.
3. Did I mention the dealer's a dick?
4. The throttle bodies not fueling was caused by low battery voltage.
5. The dealer's still a dick.
6. A new battery and a remap back to standard fixed all of the above probs in about 5 mins.
7. The dealer's dickness is not improving...
What I worked out is that problems the dealer said were caused by either my farkle wiring or a bad earth or both, was in fact a duff battery. New battery solved those problems.
The rev counter problem was more interesting... the map the dealer loaded just before the problems started was for a 2005 Speed Triple tune(God only knows why he did that). I discovered the ECM tune has two parts: a base program and the map. The Tiger base is the same as the base of the Daytona ECM that I bought from Ebay - explaining why that cured the rev counter problem temporarily even though it didn't run very well because the fueling was wrong. However, the Speed Triple has a completely different base program - hence the rev counter playing up. As soon as I loaded the standard Tiger tune the rev counter behaved normally. Engine runs smoothly so if I have time, I'll take her for a run tomorrow night.
:lol:
Having had some time to reflect, I've been pretty hard on my dealer on here, and his guys were always courteous and helpful - although one could argue not always knowledgeable. I think maybe they created a problem in their zeal to give me back a fully sorted bike, and then lost their way when it gave them problems they didn't understand.
I'm not sure I could keep my cool going into the shop face to face if they were anything less than apologetic so I intend to write to them and try to square it that way. Life's too short etc...
Not sure I'll ever let them near my bike again though :roll:
Anyway, with a Tuneboy I have a whole new world to explore and understand. And then I could offer my services to my dealer as a freelance ECM troubleshooter :lol:
I'm glad it turned out alright for you, Bob.
I agree though, it is easy to be hard on a dealer. We who love and intimately know a certain model expect the Triumph dealer to know our bikes as well as we do. After all, he's the dealer, right? He has access to all the factory information and service issues, right?
Considering how many bikes a dealer would have to keep up with if he actually knew each one as well as we know Tigers... is unrealistic at best. My own dealer, whom I have a great deal of respect for, is completely clueless about Tigers. When I took mine in for a TOR tune reload, it was the first Tiger he'd seen in two years. They just don't have much call for them in this area, so he spends his time with bikes he actually has to deal with. That's reasonable.
I'm glad to hear there was nothing wrong with your original ECM. In my dealings here on TigerTriple, I have only heard of two bad ECM's... Kev187 (after his bike was hit by a car), and SilverStripes. There are a few ongoing threads dealing with rough running, and I'm wondering how many of those issues are also due to tune maps that have somehow been corrupted.
Agreed Stretch.
My getting a Tuneboy is only the beginning. I plan to learn all I can about what goes on inside the ECM and use that to cure my surging and popping on overrun if at all possible. I'll start a thread and keep it up to date as I go so that we can all benefit. After all, I've made a substantial financial investment in the Tiger now, may as well see it through.
Meanwhile, I've started work on a set of headlamp wire guards. I'll take some photos as I'm going and post it as a project when I'm done if it's good. I'm trying to keep away from any processes (such as welding) that others won't have readily to hand so others can have a go too. My idea is similar to the Touratech ones, but without the ugly mounting arrangement (or the outrageous price). So far I spent $10 on a garden sieve to use the wire mesh because I couldn't find anything else suitable. :ImaPoser
Most of my Tiger projects were done with scrap metal. Let 'er eat.
Last update on this one; after re-doing my farkle wiring, took her to work today - 70 mile round trip - with a standard post vin 955i Tiger map and all trims set to zero, inc the throttle posn, runs very sweet, better than all the time I've owned her. Surging is much reduced, still there slightly but much better, and popping on overrun is all but gone. Still burbles a bit but no loud bangs. This popping cure might have been due to fixing all the leaks in the pipe joints though.
Next is to play about witht he map, compare it with the TOR etc and see if I can get it spot on.
For what it's worth, it seems a good battery, a clean uncorrupt map and zeroing trims will fix the worst of our troubles.
Quote from: "Bixxer Bob"7. The dealer's dickness is not improving...
:ImaPoser :ImaPoser missed that first time around.
I found when I actually got to speak to the mechanics, they were quite knowledgable but what they were telling me wasn't the same message I was hearing at front of house and vice versa, what I told the desk didn't have the same meaning by the time it got to the worshop. I know few other nationalities understand Jockanese but you'd think we'd be able to understand each other :roll: GONAENODAETHAT
Back OT Glad to hear your getting somewhere Bob, Sagem God status (is there such a thing?) in the offing maybe :notworthy
Well I'm not about to drop money on a Tuneboy right now, but I have a new battery on order, a new exhaust clamp in hand, and a little hope in my heart :)
I was planning on getting the TOR tune done tomorrow but I won't be able to clean up the exhaust joints and seal it back up until Saturday. Then I might as well wait till I have a good battery before I let them load the new tune.
New battery first is a good idea EB. I'm sure that my poor battery was the cause of most of my woes (corrupt maps etc), not helped by the fact that the dealer was using a jumper battery that must've been flat also. Otherwise the mapping issues shouldn't have occured. The Tuneboy info sheets warn of the connection between a poor battery and failed loads. I read somewhere (I'll have to track it down again) that writing to the ECM requires a certain voltage which a poor battery can't manage. That ties in with what I know about blowing eproms in the old days, but we're getting off subject now.
I have heard of ECMs going comatose due to failed tune loads caused by low volts, but I'm not sure how that's possible. The instruction set in the chip which controls the up / download is seperate from the volatile memory where you blow the tune so shouldn't be affected by anything done to the tune. I'm no expert though so I'll try to read up on it, unless there's a ready-made chip expert out there?
I believe it's pretty well known among competent (key word) dealers that your battery must be in good condition in order to download a tune. When I had mine done in May, the dealer asked about my battery a couple times, making sure he wouldn't have trouble loading the tune.
A weak battery can't tolerate having the ignition and lights on (engine not running) for the 5-10 minutes it takes to load the tune into the ECU. If the battery is marginal, the voltage will get lower and lower, until it finally falls under the threshold (whatever that value is, I don't know) that the ECU can't take in any more data from the tune tool, and the tune program is corrupted.
You'd think they'd have the forethought to simply pull the headlight fuse. I turned my lights off, just to be sure (UK-spec headlight switch).
Aye, my dealer used a jumper battery, as I said earlier, but at the end of the day there probably wasn't enough left in it. The second time they ran the bike all morning on the jumper, or at least till the injectors stopped firing. It was blaming it on my wiring that was too much to take, even though they'd disconnected it!!!!
How badly will a small exhaust leak of a aftermarket exhaust affect the running of these bikes? It wasn't doing this with the stock muffler.
I have a new battery, fresh balanced TB's, fresh valve adjustment, fresh TOR tune, and my bike is running very odd, especially when I first start it up.
Also when I go to accelerate it sometimes hesitates a couple times before it takes off. Power though is greatly increased with the new muffler. The TOR tune doesn't seem to have made much difference in running or performance.
The dealers are no longer using the "Game Boy" to load the tune. They have Acer netbooks with a Triumph software running on it and a USB cable to attaches to the bike. Very similar to Tune boy. If I could get a hold of that netbook for a few minutes I'd Ghost a copy of that hard drive. :) When he was loading the tune he said the software had an updated version of the TOR tune from what the old Game Boy had listed for the bike.
I'm going to fix the exhaust leaks when the weather turns ugly later in the week...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMLG63XEjz0