TigerTriple.com

Talk => Speaking Of Bikes... => Topic started by: haulin' daze on October 16, 2009, 04:31:46 PM

Title: Battery storage
Post by: haulin' daze on October 16, 2009, 04:31:46 PM
I'm sure this has been touched upon in the past, but I haven't read anything about it lately, so here goes.

I keep my 05 in a friends unheated garage for the winter. I do what's needed to it  then take the battery out and bring it home. This is what I keep it connected to in the basement during our nice, warm ne england winters:


(http://i893.photobucket.com/albums/ac137/42404/GetAttachment1.jpg)

Apparently this little auto shut off charger is not doing the job, as I've had to replace the battery the last two springs (those suckers are not cheap).

My questions are:
What do you guys use for a charger? (for the guys who take their batteries out)
And do I need to buy a voltmeter and constantly check the battery throughout the winter?

Any thoughts would be great so I don't have to shell out another $80 or so in april, and so I can get the bike out of his garage in a matter of minutes!
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Post by: Medic09 on October 16, 2009, 06:17:16 PM
We use a couple of Battery Tender Jr. for our bikes.  I don't leave the battery on all the time.  Too many batteries/bikes.  (Yikes!  Did I really say that?)  I rotate them so they all get full charge once a  month.  That's always been sufficient.

Where in Mass. are you?  I well remember that wet heavy NE snow.  I was pretty surprised when we moved out here and the snow was light and fluffy!
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Post by: Mustang on October 16, 2009, 06:29:41 PM
even though the battery tenders are supposed to be automatic and go to float mode when the battery is charged .........they tend to boil the acid out of the battery over time and if you didn't keep the level up over the lead plates you now have an $80 paperweight .
Last winter I ran a car battery in Tigger 3 with the sidecar on it and left the bikes small battery on the shelf with a tender hooked to it ......when I went to use the bike battery a couple of weeks ago , I discovered it was "dry" and even though a volt meter showed 13+ volts at the terminals , the battery wouldn't even click the starter relay let alone turn the starter motor . Would run the bikes lights though for a short while  :roll:
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Post by: Medic09 on October 16, 2009, 06:48:39 PM
+1 to Mustang's observation.  Seems a similar comment from my dad or FIL might be why we first started doing occasional recharges.

Mustang, do you think the same happens with 'sealed' batteries, given that the internal setup is different?
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Post by: Mustang on October 16, 2009, 10:14:00 PM
:iagree  yep unless you are talking about an AGM battery which is an whole nother animal in itself .
And BTW for what it's worth I have never been able to get more than 2 years tops out of any of the Tigger batterys in 14 years of Tiger ownership .
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Post by: EvilBetty on October 16, 2009, 10:19:05 PM
I pulled an AGM battery out of the Buell Blast that was just starting to die and was 7 years old.

Based on that I installed one of these in the Tiger last month.

http://www.powerstarsla.com/pm121276.html (http://www.powerstarsla.com/pm121276.html)
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Post by: Medic09 on October 16, 2009, 11:13:45 PM
I did, indeed, intend AGM batteries - because they are significantly different.

EB, that's one cheap price for an AGM battery.  I typically pay almost twice that for the batteries in each of my bikes.
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Post by: haulin' daze on October 17, 2009, 01:58:39 AM
Wow, that Power Star is cheap. So basiclly what you guys are saying is that whether I hook it up to my tender, or let it sit in my bike without starting it for 4 or 5 month, the result will be a big bag o' sh!t.  :Topes  There must be something else I could do so I don't have to buy a new battery every spring.  :BangHead
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Post by: Mustang on October 17, 2009, 03:11:01 AM
the pic of that powerstar batt clearly says sealed lead acid battery  right on the case
I don't think it's an AGM batt. too cheap.............. Agm's typically sell for around 80- 100 bucks
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Post by: Nimrod11 on October 17, 2009, 03:11:54 AM
Quote from: "haulin' daze"There must be something else I could do so I don't have to buy a new battery every spring.  :BangHead

Yeap - ship it down to Brazil andI can ride it for you all through summer (December and January)...   :lol:
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Post by: Mustang on October 17, 2009, 03:12:34 AM
Quote from: "haulin' daze"There must be something else I could do so I don't have to buy a new battery every spring.  :BangHead
ride it all year and don't store it  :ImaPoser
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Post by: haulin' daze on October 17, 2009, 03:47:03 AM
Nimrod and Mustang...you guys suck for making sense  :D .
Title: Conventional sealed
Post by: Colonel Nikolai on October 17, 2009, 06:06:11 AM
I take the battery out of the bike and put it up OFF THE FLOOR WITHOUT a tender for the winter. I've gotten 4 years out of my Sprint battery. Now that I own a 96 Tiger, I intend to do the same.

If you store it on the concrete floor, you will ruin the battery in a few weeks.
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Post by: EvilBetty on October 17, 2009, 06:13:00 AM
My dad has had boats for years that require multiple batteries and all the associated storage and charging.  He's tried quite a few "maintainers" and says they dry out the batteries as well.

He pulls them from the boats and stores them on the floor on 2x12 strips, and then just charges them once a month.  Usually gets 5 years out of each one.

Mustang:  The language on the site says it's a sealed AGM battery, but I agree I've never seen an AGM like this before.  It really looks like any other sealed lead acid battery.
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Post by: Nimrod11 on October 17, 2009, 06:23:53 AM
Joking apart, you could always put the charger on a timer and have it on just for some time - sort of automating EvilBetty's dad's process. How long for? I would suggest as less as possible, making sure the voltage keeps up.

I have also worked with some large industrial size UPS systems and they had a similar system - they floated for some time and then shut off the charging and just monitored the voltage.
Title: strips
Post by: Colonel Nikolai on October 17, 2009, 06:37:48 AM
EB, what do you mean by "strips"
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Post by: EvilBetty on October 17, 2009, 06:43:05 AM
Sorry... meant planks.  He has a couple 4 or 5 foot sections of 2x12 that keeps the batteries off the concrete.

But then I find articles like this all over the internet.
http://www.thebatteryterminal.com/TechT ... ncrete.htm (http://www.thebatteryterminal.com/TechTalk_Batteries_on_Concrete.htm)


When I think AGM I think I was remembering GEL batteries I have been around.  Looks like there may be nothing fishy about the PowerStar.

This was an interesting read.  Especially the part about AGM batteries and alternators.

http://www.vonwentzel.net/Battery/01.Type/index.html (http://www.vonwentzel.net/Battery/01.Type/index.html)
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Post by: Mustang on October 17, 2009, 02:14:12 PM
I just buy wally world batterys for the tiggers $39.95 and they work for two years . I figure I got my moneys worth out of em .

My Bonneville on the other hand is still going strong on the Battery after 7 years and I do absolutely NOTHING for it  no tender no charging , hell I don't even take it out of the bike before I stuff it in the trailer the winter . Come spring time , hit the button starter spins like mad (sometimes takes quite awhile before the Keihins wake up) and presto she's running .
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Post by: haulin' daze on October 17, 2009, 05:42:50 PM
I used to put marine batteries on a plank and charge them once a month or so a while back (haven't had a boat in years). Wasn't sure if same could be done with a smaller motorcycle battery or not. Maybe I'll try that.

Thanks for the great discussion everyone!
Title: Concrete and modern batteries
Post by: Colonel Nikolai on October 18, 2009, 01:50:47 AM
OK, EB, I've been disabused of that "wisdom" now. Thanks for the post.

I do find it odd that Mustang's Bonneville can have such an abused and long lasting battery when the Tiger just seems to go through them. Also based on my experience with my 96 triumph Sprint which has the same engine and larger dual headlights and ostensibly the same ignition system and much the same wiring diagram as the steamers doesn't go through batteries like the steamers seem to. What gives?
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Post by: 2004Tiger on October 18, 2009, 03:42:17 AM
I once had a BMW R1000R original battery go for 14 years. I kept it on the OEM BMW charger which came with the bike for most of the winter, and also several times in the summer while the bike was in use. The charger was 3 amps or less, and I could see the needle jump off of zero every few minutes as it gave the battery a little zap.

For my camper and boat deep cycle batteries, I charge them fully with a Guest (brand name) automatic three stage smart charger before storing them on a bench in my unheated garage, and then often connect a 1 amp Battery Minder (brand name) over the winter months.

This Battery Minder is also an automatic three stage smart charger with an added feature of desulfation cycle after full charge. This is my Tiger charger which I plug in whenever I don't ride in the winter because of peroids of snowy weather. The Tiger battery is so small that really cold weather has more effect on it, and the Battery Minder will reduce its amps to nearly nothing while it finishes a charge. Then it goes into desulfation cycle to restore the battery to new condition.

Whenever the Battery Minder is not on the Tiger I put it on one or the other of my bigger batteries to trickle them and desulfate over the winter.

Many battery chargers do more harm than good. The only type worth using is an electronically controlled three stage smart charger which will taper the amps and voltage to get the last 10% for a full charge. If you don't do this, the 10% left uncharged will sulfate the plates and ruin the battery. Just in case, I desulfate with the Battery Minder periodically, even though this cycle can be left on indefinitely. Actually, a smart charger of any size can be left on any battery of any size full time without harm because it will taper off to almost nothing and never boil out the water.

I always get lots of years out of my batteries. Everyone should do some research on "smart chargers" and "three stage charging" to see what I am talking about.
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Post by: JetdocX on October 18, 2009, 03:48:39 AM
I'm going on year three from my Deka AGM battery in my Steamer.  I plug it into the Battery Tender Jr. every night when I park it in the garage.  I never pickle the bike for the winter.  I usually disassemble the bike and wait for parts to come trickling in for all the stuff that i broke the previous summer. :evil:

The battery has, so far been the most bulletproof part on my bike.

And the concrete floor myth is bullshit.  My battery has spent months sitting on the floor of the garage connected to the Tender.

Edit: from http://www.batteryfaq.org/

  14.1. MYTH: Storing batteries on a concrete floor will discharge them.

False! All lead-acid batteries will naturally self-discharge which can result in loss of capacity from sulfation. The rate of self-discharge is most influenced by the temperature of the battery's electrolyte and the chemistry of the plates. This self-discharge is often mistaken for concrete floor causing the battery to drain. Some experts believe that storing car or deep cycle batteries on a colder concrete floor might actually slow down the self-discharge (leakage) rate because the floor acts as a heat sink and cools the battery. (Please see Section 13 for more information on storing batteries and Section 1 for more information on sulfation.

In the early 1900s, when battery cases were made of porous materials such as tar-lined wood boxes, storing batteries on concrete floor would accelerate their natural self-discharge due to external leakage. Modern battery cases are made of polypropylene or hard rubber. These cases are sealed better, so external leakage-causing discharge is no longer a problem, provided the top of the battery is clean and free from wet or dried electrolyte and the same temperature as the floor.

Large differences in temperature could cause electrolyte stratification within very large batteries (>250 AH) which could accelerate it's internal "leakage" or self-discharge if the battery is sitting on an extremely cold concrete, stone or steel floor in a warm room, boat or submarine. Stirrers or bubblers are often used on these types of large batteries to keep the electrolyte from stratifying. Undercharging will also cause electrolyte stratification, which can also result in loss of capacity from sulfation.
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