Had the old girl dyno'd by a very nice man called Tony.
She's the most powerful Tiger he'd ever had at 102.4 BHP at the rear tyre :P
He's only ever had one other... :oops:
Here's the graph:
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c273/BixxerBob/img001.jpg)
The run is done in 4th gear: red and blue lines are before / after fuel tweaks; the line going up is power - you can see a 1 bhp increase. You can also see that there's a flat spot at 80-90mph or 6500-7300rpm.
The other line, going down is fuel air ratio. The horizontal, dotted line is to show where 13 to 1, or max power is (ideal mix is 14.7 to 1 but no-one really runs that); top of the graph is lean, bottom is rich. Red is first run, blue is second run after mapping. You can see that on the first run, she's weak almost everywhere, from 40 - 90 mph (3000 - 7300 rpm). We put a block 10% extra fuel in this area and then added another 10% in the worst, 50 - 70mph area. The blue run shows that the adjustment brought it roughly just lean of best power 45 - 65 mph and then slightly rich 70- 90 mph (where the flat spot is that we accidentally created).
Armed with this, I can extrapolate the fuel we put in and the impact, work out another map and then take it for another dyno run at some point.
Oh, and the result???? Surging's almost completely cured and the throttle pickup stutter out of corners is totally fixed. :lol: :lol: :lol:
Still burbles nicely on overrun but almost no bangs.... :)
Funny thing is :roll: dealer said it was running very rich, when the evidence is it was almost dangerously weak. This was borne out by the plugs, which were nearly white intstead of chocolate brown.
That's an excellent result, puts my Vara in the shade by a long way, 87 and that was after LeoVince SBK's and PCIII, that is considered good for a Vara.
First time I'd done a Dyno on a bike, half meter flames after a full load cut is spectacular if a bit scary :shock:
Agree, it's just the starting point, on the raod is what matters.
I dyno'd my '98 after popping in some Daytona coils & plug wires.
The guy at the Dyno shop ( that's all they do) said every guy walking thru the doors would kill to see a chart like this!. (sorry don't have ). But he was really impressed with the very little drop off between gears.
How come you went all the way to Chesterfield,when you have BSD on your door step
Mark Brewin at BSD did my Blackbird. He did a brilliant job using a Power Commander to release 139bhp at the tyre with stock pre-catalyst exhausts. However, when I asked about doing the Tiger they said they don't do Tuneboy, so I had to find someone who did - hence going to Tony.
Did the dyno people do the tuneboy or was that your own set up?
It would be very interesting to see the A/F map you've ended up with.
Quote from: "John Stenhouse"Did the dyno people do the tuneboy or was that your own set up?
It's my own setup, but they are agents, so - for the price of a software key plus dyno runs, labour etc - they can do it for you.
Quote from: "iansoady"It would be very interesting to see the A/F map you've ended up with.
I can do a screenshot of the current map I'm running which produced the second plotline. I haven't got round to doing the further tweaking yet because I'm unwell again (second time this year), so won't be doing any serious riding for a few weeks.
I pulled these off in 3D view because they're more informative than just rows of numbers.
The axis from left to right is rpm 0-10000 and the axis front to back is throttle position 0-100 %. The height, for sake of arguement here, is how much fuel added. (It's more complex than that but there's no need to go into it here).
You can see that the top pic, which is the standard Triumph tune for late VIN girlies with aftermarket pipe ie Tune 10173, has a big hole at zero throttle settings and low to mid range revs.
You can see on the second map I've smoothed out a lot of that as well as adding 10-20% across the throttle range from 2500-6500 rpm. I still have to deal with the dips and peaks on the curve which I'll do when my brain is working a bit better than it does at the moment.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c273/BixxerBob/73map.jpg)
Interesting that you seem to have achieved this by using the fuel map rather than the air/fuel ratio. It's the latter that I changed to eliminate the hunting between 2,000 and 4,000 although I wasn't looking for any more power.
Quote from: "iansoady"Interesting that you seem to have achieved this by using the fuel map rather than the air/fuel ratio. It's the latter that I changed to eliminate the hunting between 2,000 and 4,000 although I wasn't looking for any more power.
Wasn't really looking for more power either. The two tables have a complex relationship, so I want to spend more time on the dyno when I can afford it (the time not the cash).
Ideally, I want to map most of the A/F table to 13 for most power, but leave the area where I cruise most, around 6000rpm on 30%throttle in 6th gear, as lean as I can (probably about 14 rather than the 14.7 stoichiometric value) then remap the fuel values for best running. I could just change the full load map, but I don't think any of us ride around with the throttle pinned all the time, and the standard maps are all over the place anyway. Have you looked at the peaks and troughs on the fuel map for a Datona? Or tried to figure out why the ign map has spikes all over it?
This stuff is rather geeky, but I'm really getting into it.
:icon_scratch
Quote from: "GWL":icon_scratch
:lol: Ok, here's months of learning in a short, simplified form.
The stoichiometric ratio for burning petrol using oxygen is 14.7 parts oxygen to 1 part petrol by mass. If you burn it at 14.7 to 1 there's no left over oxygen or hydrocarbons which is peak efficiency. Anything above 14.7 air to 1 fuel is lean, anything below is rich. BUT, (remember, we're keeping this simple) this ratio creates a lot of heat under load, and 13 to 1 is best for power, so then real target is usually somewhere between 13 and 14.5 to 1. The best ratio for any given set of engine conditions is stored in a table known as the Air Fuel table (A/F) in what we all call a "Tune".
Now, in your Tiger fuel rail the fuel is held at a constant pressure by the pump and pressure sensor. By knowing that pressure and the rating of the fuel injector you can work out exactly how much fuel is passed by the injector for every milisecond it's open. In the case of our Tigers, that's 3430 milligrams of fuel per second. To work out how many milliseconds to open the injector, the Engine Control Module (ECM) needs to know some information, which it gathers from the sensors.
First it needs to know the temperature of the air and the barometric pressure (that is the atmospheric pressure - which changes as you go higher up mountains, or if it's a dry or a wet day). Using those two pieces of information it can work out how much oxygen is in the air being sucked into the engine. Next, it needs to know how much air is being drawn into the engine at any one time. It knows this by the throttle position which it reads from the throttle position sensor, and the engine revs which it reads from the crankshaft sensor. Using those two pieces of information, it looks up a number in the Fuel Map which is another of the sets of data in a "Tune". That number is then multiplied by the mixture ratio in the A/F map and comes up with a fuel figure. Since it knows how much fuel passes through an injector per second, it can work out how long to open the injector.
There's a whole load of other stuff about engine load that we won't get into here, but basically, if you change the A/F or Fuel maps, you can tell the ECM to put more or less fuel into the engine and thus affect how it performs.
See, I told you it was simple.... :wink:
Oh, there's one other thing that comes out of this... There's a thing called the long term fuel trim stored in your ECM. The ECM uses this to adjust the whole fuel map if your bike naturally runs rich or weak. It works by monitoring the oxygen sensor. If the oxygen sensor is constantly trying to richen the mix, it'll slowly increase the long term value until the oxygen sensor is happy. You might wonder why it should need to do this; well, it cancels out any difference due to height above sea level and hot or cold, wet or dry weather affecting the amount of oxygen in the air, but the most significant error that this corrects is tiny variations in fuel rail pressure caused by variations in the pressure sensor, fuel pump efficiency etc.
Anyone still awake???
Happy to take comments - I'm certainly not an expert in this area yet :oops:
Good write up Sir, well done, you have more patience than me :notworthy
Great post BB. Thanks.
Excellent rundown. The only addition I would make is that the Triumph ECU uses the "magic" 14.5 air / fuel ratio to know when it should be running in closed loop ie monitoring the O2 sensor. If the target A/F is not 14.5 it ignores the signal from the sensor and runs in open loop mode hence will not adjust the long term fuel trim.
So when I remapped mine I made sure that at idle (which for some reason is around 20% load....) the A/F was 14.5 so that it would get the fuel trim right. This seems to have tidied up the idle which was a bit ragged but not affected the running at any other point.
Like you, this is what I have discovered from reading about the subject so it may be total rubbish.
Quote from: "iansoady".....So when I remapped mine I made sure that at idle (which for some reason is around 20% load....) the A/F was 14.5 so that it would get the fuel trim right. This seems to have tidied up the idle which was a bit ragged but not affected the running at any other point.
Like you, this is what I have discovered from reading about the subject so it may be total rubbish.
Makes sense. Mine also seems to think idle is 20% load so there doesn't seem to be any scenario when it'll use the numbers below that, unless that's where it goes on overrun. Could also point to blocked air filter - I know mine is due soon. That would cause a depression in the airbox which the ECM would see as load. I'll have to look at the baro pressure voltage at engine off and again at tickover to see if there's a difference. One of these days I'll get round to doing some data logging whilst I'm riding and hopefully unravel some of these mysteries.
I love this forum, where else would you get this sort of info! Keep it coming, I'm learning loads.
John, for some of this, you don't need to go to the expense of Tuneboy. I got started with a universal OBD II scanner from Ebay for about £15 which includes software and an OBD lead and a serial to usb coverter. all you need is a laptop to run it on.
That will allow you to see the sensor values, and read and reset error codes. It won't allow you to change trims though, or go anywhere near the maps. nor will it let you reset the throttle position or CO.
Quote from: "Bixxer Bob"Mine also seems to think idle is 20% load so there doesn't seem to be any scenario when it'll use the numbers below that, unless that's where it goes on overrun. Could also point to blocked air filter - I know mine is due soon. That would cause a depression in the airbox which the ECM would see as load.
ISTR that the sensor is connected forward of the air filter so blocked filter wouldn't make any difference. But it's a little while since I've looked in there.
Nah, the sensor at the front of the box is the air temp sensor. The flexi tube from the plastic elbow at the back right corner of the box, that runs along the subframe to the ECM, monitors the pressure. The sensor is actually inside the ECM.
And for the casual reader, NEVER be tempted to blow or suck on it. It's sensitive and you could do some very, very expensive damage. Have you seen the price of a replacement ECM?? :shock:
By the way, I've noticed that the air temp rises pretty rapidly once the radiator warms up suggesting the air intake is too close. When I get time I'll try to sort that. Warm air is less dense and so contains less oxygen and so gives less power - although it shouldn't run weak because the ECM should compensate for that.
Here is my Tigru -03 dyno taken this autumn. I think it´s a little bit poor. There is Yoshimura Slip on & K&N filter, it´s mapped with the dealers Triumph race can map.
That's pretty good right across the range, until what looks like 7.5k - 9k rpm (I'm only guessing because the scale is not on the chart) where the dip is. In that rev range, you are very weak; 16 is dangerously weak - if you run in that rev range for long periods you'll burn valves. It should never be higher than 14.7. It needs a whole lot of fuel in there - 20% at least I would say. You need a Tuneboy setup.
Quote from: "jomi"Here is my Tigru -03 dyno taken this autumn. I think it´s a little bit poor. There is Yoshimura Slip on & K&N filter, it´s mapped with the dealers Triumph race can map.
Are those back wheel figures ?? 117hp, 104nm, thats pretty impressive if they are
Yes, they are back wheel figures :D :D :D
Bearing in mind I've only got 102.5, and that's good for a stock engine, where's your other 15 coming from? It can't be the exhaust as I have a BlueFlame and, whilst the Yoshi might make maybe 3 or 4 more, I can't see it pushing 15. If it does, I'm taking the baffles out of my BF and see what I can get then...
Oh, and what are you going to do about the weak mixture?
Yes, it was taken without any baffle. Because I d´ont use it, I also have NGK Iridium spark plugs not sure are they giving any more power. But in karting TMengines we use normaly such, because they are much reliable.
About this weak mixture: I was discussion with one of my friend who has worked many years with different kinds of race engines, such as karting, superbikes, motocross, snowmobiles, formula 3 etc. he was saying when I asked about shall I bought something like Power Comander, Rapid Bike or Enginejet modul? That he d´ont belive these. And why not ? Because these systems are actually cheating bikes normaly box. He said to me that this Triumphs remapping have to be enough, because I d´ont drive all the time like race bike as in full power.
I have not look about which coloured are the spark plugs after summer but I´am going to check these now on wintertime.
Power Commanders don't work well with Lamda sensors as they fight each other. To use one you'd have to bypass the sensor first. The better (and cheaper) option is, as I said, Tuneboy. This allows you to change the fuel map in the ECM, not trick it like the PC does.
Your map is good for best power (around 13 to 1) right through the rev range until you get the dip around 7.5k. Above that it's too weak, it should be no weaker than 14.7 to 1 (theoretical best for efficiency but in practice produces a lot of heat). The following is taken from Wikipedia:
A stoichiometric mixture (14.7-1) unfortunately burns very hot and can damage engine components if the engine is placed under high load at this fuel air mixture. Due to the high temperatures at this mixture, detonation of the fuel air mix shortly after maximum cylinder pressure is possible under high load (referred to as knocking or pinging). Detonation can cause serious engine damage as the uncontrolled burning of the fuel air mix can create very high pressures in the cylinder. As a consequence stoichiometric mixtures are only used under light load conditions. For acceleration and high load conditions, a richer mixture (lower air-fuel ratio) is used to produce cooler combustion products and thereby prevent detonation and overheating of the cylinder head.
But to put it in context, you aren't using 7.5 - 9k much, even if you're ragging it, you 'll be thinking of changing up around there. And in top gear, assuming standard sprockets, you don't cruise up there either as 6k equates to around 90 mph. So whether you need to worry about it depends on how you ride. More significant for you is you are developing much less power at high revs with the map as it is.
Most folks would be happy with it as it is because, if you start re-mapping, you really should only do that if you know what you're doing. Or get a professional....
As I told that friend of mine who said d´ont do anything more is professonal tuner. In Finland we have 40 km, 50 km, 80 km, 100, and 120 km speed limits. But lets se when I look these spark plugs how they look are they brown or white.
Plug colour? First, that'll do for carbs, but isn't an accurate gauge for FI engines, you need exhaust analysis. Second, you said you were running iridium plugs....... :roll:
I can understand why your experienced friend thinks this is not worth fixing for the reason I gave earlier. Doesn't mean you don't have an issue though, the graph speaks for itself; you said in your first post,"I think it´s a little bit poor" .... the graph is telling you why.
All these fuel mixtures change only, the fuel map. But normaly when you change fuel map in carburator engines it´s better if you change also ignition timing. Because the ignition timing can also lead to detonation also if you squishband is too small.
Quote from: "Bixxer Bob"Plug colour? First, that'll do for carbs, but isn't an accurate gauge for FI engines, you need exhaust analysis. Second, you said you were running iridium plugs....... :roll:
I can understand why your experienced friend thinks this is not worth fixing for the reason I gave earlier. Doesn't mean you don't have an issue though, the graph speaks for itself; you said in your first post,"I think it´s a little bit poor" .... the graph is telling you why.
Yes, I´am going to change the map because I look those plugs today and it´s have to change. Now I just wondereing which system shall it change :?: Power Comander is cheaper than Tuneboy, from Sweden I can get PC 260,- euros and TB is nearly 500,- euros same as rapid bike.
I didn't mention the timing because we were discussing the weak mixture as shown at the top end on your dyno graph, but you're right, timing would cause detonation or running hot too.
In Tuneboy you can change the timing map, just like you can change the fuel map, or the AF target map, or the full power map, or the cold start adjustment. Not to mention read and reset fault codes, reset the throttle position sensor, read all sensor outputs, blah, blah.
Power commander just changes the ECM output to the injectors. I have experience of both, I have Tuneboy on Tiger and PC on my Blackbird.
In the end, it's down to personal choice. Good luck with whatever you decide.