My '02 with roughly 35K miles will not stay running. It starts just like always but will run (poorly) with throttle applied.
If it were carbed instead of fuel injected I would say the carbs needed cleaning.
Here's what we've done and checked...
*Valves are now all in spec (four were too tight).
*Throttle bodies synced.
*Fuel filter replaced. Bike has plenty of fresh fuel.
*Charging system is good.
*No kinked fuel hoses or other lines.
*Replaced dry-rotted vacuum lines.
*Cleaned injectors.
*Changed oil.
*New airfilter.
*We fitted a new IACV (stepper motor)
*Replaced spark plugs. They did not look too bad.
*Compression and leakdown tests are all positive.
We actually have a friend's 2006 in the shop to get some stuff put on so we took advantage and:
*Swapped ECU which had no effect.
*Swapped fuel injectors which had no effect.
Any ideas?
try the coil paks from the other bike .............triumph coils are notorious for corrosion on the wires on the HT side inside the sealed coil . they eventually corrode all the way thus seperating the wires inside the coil . then the arc has to jump the break until the break in the wire becomes too big for the spark to jump .
when steamer coils go bad the symptoms are very similar and you would swear to god on a stack of bibles that the carbs are fooked but it's the coils
I'm with Mustang conceptually, not that my input is worth a penny. Just has always seemed to me.. and you started looking this direction to, it appears if working on fuel stuff does not solve a poorly running engine issue... odds are good it's in the ignition. So keep digging into ignition trouble shooting now.
Hope you get it sorted soon. Been there with frustating issues like that. Kudo's to your friend.
Quote from: "flux"*Tried to reload tune, only one would stick... the aftermarket exhaust tune... I have a TOR can fitted... this is bothersome...
THAT sounds characteristic of a weak battery or battery connection problem, and a badly loaded tune could cause all kinds of problems.
BUT the fact that you had a 2006 ECU which obviously had a good tune should have eliminated that. That is unless the 2006 ECU tune won't work right on a 2003. The 2006 has an updated EFI system on it. It's still the the French Sagem injector system, but using the 1050 cases the engine breathes different. I know for sure the EFI map was changed from 2005 to 2006.
Is this a Triumph shop doing this work?
Thanks for the advice. Mustang, I will suggest the coils to him.
EB, yes, this is a Triumph shop. Although, they canned the Triumph go-to guy 2 weeks ago that originally started working on my bike my buddy is admittedly still new to Triumph. 8) I am pretty sure the battery is good as we checked the charging system and its fine, plus I changed the battery less than 6 months ago. I will check the connections though.
Thanks guys, this has been an irritating experience.
All 955i Tigers have the same base tune, it's only the fuel maps that are different, depending on VIN and pipe. However, the early Tigers, up to 2000, had a different base - not that this matters as you used a 2006. This applies to all models up until the first 1050 which of course has the Keihin ECM, not the Sagem.
EB is right that a corrupt map will cause all sorts of running issues, as will a badly modified fuel map (I've had both) but the good ECM proves this is not the issue. As you've done about everything else, Mustang's coils idea seem to be a good bet.
One other place you might look is the tube from the airbox to the ECM. Just disconnect it from the airbox and blow down it. If it's clear then it's ok. If it's blocked it'll give false airbox pressure readings to the ECM. Still shouldn't run this bad though... :roll:
EDIT: Just read through your post again and you say it won't take a tune? Hook up a known good battery and try again. As EB said (and this is what caused a whole lot of trouble for me) low volts will cause a tune to fail to load, and a failed load can corrupt the existing map. My dealer said mine wouldn't take a tune and needed some shop time. I rode it home and rode it back to the shop after he'd tried to load a tune and failed, only to find it wouldn't run at all below 2,000 rpm and needed loads of throttle to keep it spinning. When I went to pick it up it didn't run at all, needed to trailer it home. A fresh battery and a new tune, care of Tuneboy, and I'd fixed it myself.
Also, I know you said the other ECM didn't make any difference but you'd need to know what the other fuel trims are compared with yours, particularly the long term fuel trim. For instance, mine runs +4.18%, anything less than 3.5 and it won't tick over.
Thanks Bob, I will let you know how that works out. We actually replaced that tube from the airbox to the ECU so that can't be it. I will double check the battery on Monday to see if that is the deal.
Cheers
Quote from: "flux"The 2006 we borrowed parts from is not a 1050, FWIW. It's a 955i like Stretch's was.
The 2006's are 955i's but they use engine cases from the 1050 engine.
Or are you saying you have a titled 2006 but it was manufactured before the design change?
My 2005 was actually made in 2004 and has all the older fuel system parts on it.
Quote from: "EvilBetty"Quote from: "flux"The 2006 we borrowed parts from is not a 1050, FWIW. It's a 955i like Stretch's was.
The 2006's are 955i's but they use engine cases from the 1050 engine.
Or are you saying you have a titled 2006 but it was manufactured before the design change?
My 2005 was actually made in 2004 and has all the older fuel system parts on it.
Nevertheless, it's a Sagem ECM (not the 1050 Keihin) so it should run assuming the trims are about right. I ran mine on a Sagem with a Daytona tune in it. It wasn't brilliant, but it did run better than my corrupt Tiger map. the Daytona is the same base tune as the Tiger, just different fuel maps.
Quote from: "EvilBetty"The 2006's are 955i's but they use engine cases from the 1050 engine.
Oh, I got it now. I did not know that! :oops:
Quote from: "Bixxer Bob"Nevertheless, it's a Sagem ECM (not the 1050 Keihin) so it should run assuming the trims are about right. I ran mine on a Sagem with a Daytona tune in it. It wasn't brilliant, but it did run better than my corrupt Tiger map. the Daytona is the same base tune as the Tiger, just different fuel maps.
Very possible. I have no idea how much the porting has changed and how much that might affect the use of a particular map or tune.
Good point, but the Daytona has 40 bhp more than the Tiger, mainly down to cams and head, and it still ran on that map. Changed the long term trim half a percent on my own map and it didn't.
Not trying to get into a row with ya :D
No not all all. Freely admitting that I don't completely understand the different systems. It his area I humbly bow to your knowledge :)
Cheers!!
I'm by no means an expert either, just scratching the surface of what goes on inside these things (but still know more than my local Triumph techs) , but collective brain power should overcome.... eventually.
I symathise with Flux though, he's the one with the real problem, and as a wise man recently said to me when I said I didn't want to become a consultant / contractor back where I work now when I leave next month, "Helping with the problem isn't the same as owning it".
Hey Flux,
No wisdom to add, just my thoughts and hopes that you get it sorted. All this time without a properly running bike is not fun.
No dice on any of this.
I started another thread to expedite an answer but if anyone knows how to adjust the "idle fuel trim" speak up as mine is at 0%.
If it feels breathless, pops a bit on shutting the throttle maybe even pops through the intakes and won't tickover it's probably a lean long term fuel trim. By the way, what readings are you getting for the O2 (lamda) sensor? engine off, ign on it should be 0.46 volts. Then should be either 0 volts or 0.9 volts (ish) when running, depending on what the revs are doing. These are simple devices so don't give a voltage that corresponds directly to the mixture. More complex ones give avoltage that tells you how rich or lean you are. Did you have a look at what the long term fuel trim value is? The Triumph tool can change this value.
First though, did you successfully reload a tune? You need to do this to make sure yours is not corrupted because I've had that and it's the easiest fix to do.
If the Tune's ok start the bike, make a note of the long term fuel trim value then warm it up, then gradually raise the long term fuel trim anything up to 0.5% If this is the issue you'll immediately get a difference. If it gets worse, try leaning it out by reducing the trim. Worse case it won't make any difference and you can reset it to what it was.
It would help if you could read out the whole range of sensor and trim values and post them. I can compare them with mine and see if we can deduce anything from them.
This has really sucked me in.......
If it IS the trim, what I can't understand is how it got changed, hence me asking about the health of your O2 sensor. that's why I'm flipping beween corrupt tune and bad trim.
Bob, I shouldn't have started that other thread so let's just cOntinue here. I don't know all those values offhand but will try to find out. The o2 sensor is good though as that's one of the parts we swapped between the 2 bikes. Will run the long term fuel trim idea by and report back to you.
Thanks for the help. Cheers.
I sould have thought of comparing sensor values earlier to be honest... :oops:
Sounds as though it might be useful to have a stickie where all of those with Tuneboy post a rundown on the values we see (perhaps with details of exhaust system etc and any problems), then it'll be easy to see which ones are consistent and act as a ready reference.
But I'm not doing mine till the snow's well gone......
Quote from: "iansoady"Sounds as though it might be useful to have a stickie where all of those with Tuneboy post a rundown on the values we see (perhaps with details of exhaust system etc and any problems), then it'll be easy to see which ones are consistent and act as a ready reference.
But I'm not doing mine till the snow's well gone......
Excellent idea, I'll do mine as a starter.... watch this space....
Could be the flux capacitor; has it been checked?
Tigers have not been fitted with a Flux Capacitor since 1985 when Triumph aggressively recalled all the bikes due to a flaw in the time circuitry module which could cause them to short out. It was later found that the problem was caused by a design flaw in the vibration dampening system.
Unfortunately, when production of the bikes ceased, it killed all demand for the power supply built by Jarden Corporation. It seems Triumph was the only buyer of their Mr. Fusion products. Triumph attempted to refit the bikes with an alternative power supply that was used on the concept bike but ran into snags with IAEA when trying to setup suppliers for the required fuel cells (Pu).
8)
Where do you get all this stuff EB???
I thought Ironman meant this from Wikipedia:
QuoteFlux capacitor
The flux capacitor, which consisted of a regularly squared compartment with three flashing lights arranged as a "Y", was described by Doc as "what makes time travel possible". The device is the core component of Doctor Emmett Brown's fictional time traveling DeLorean DMC-12.
The device was located between the headrests of the seats and, as the time machine neared 88 mph (142 km/h), light coming from the flux capacitor pulsed faster until it became a steady stream of light. Doc originally conceived the idea for the flux capacitor on November 5, 1955 when he slipped and hit his head on the sink while standing on the toilet to hang a clock. A flux capacitor is seen in the front of Doc's second time machine the "Jules Verne" train at the end of Back to the Future III. A smaller flux capacitor also appeared in Back to the Future: The Ride at various Universal Studios theme parks. After the closing of Back to the Future: The Ride Doc can still be seen riding around on a bike, complete with its own flux capacitor. Although it resembles the original DeLorean flux capacitor, nothing is known about this version.
In 2008, Dr. Leon Chua, famous for proposing the memristor in 1971, proposed in a UC Berkeley symposium that a "Memory Capacitor" be built as the next important element in basic circuits.[1] This capacitor is different from other capacitors by being a function of flux. It is a "flux capacitor". The equation governing the operation of Dr. Chua's flux capacitor is q=C(φ)*v where φ is flux.
How it works
Although the films do not describe exactly how the flux capacitor works, Doc mentions at one point that the stainless steel body of the DeLorean has a direct and influential effect on the "flux dispersal", but he is interrupted before he can finish the explanation. The flux capacitor requires 1.21 gigawatts of electrical power to operate.
But lets not hijack Flux's thread (I'm sure there's a link there somewhere)
he's got enough grief without additional distractions... :?
Quote from: "Bixxer Bob"Where do you get all this stuff EB???
I thought Ironman meant this from Wikipedia:
QuoteFlux capacitor
But lets not hijack Flux's thread (I'm sure there's a link there somewhere)
he's got enough grief without additional distractions... :?
Yup that's what he meant :lol:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0088763/ (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0088763/)
I was answering a joke with a joke. One you would only get if had seen the movie a few times... :twisted:
That said... we do have one owner that was able to move the 1985 FP to a Girly...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v226/flux_capacitor/TIGER/FluxCapacitorMod.jpg)
Haha, loving the flux capacitor talk! I wish I could rig one up on the Tiger. My wife got me a tag for my bday that says "FLUX" but I wish it said "88MPH" instead.
Okay, Triumph FINALLY called us back, after our RM was sicked on them.
Could possibly be the gasket under the throttle bodies letting air in. He's gonna file it, re-silicone it, and see what happens. This is the only thing we have not checked that I can think of....
TB air leaks are common on many Triumphs due to the rubbish screws that the factory use. I posted some wisdom here after doing mine:
http://tigertriple.com/forum/index.php/msg,44959 (http://tigertriple.com/forum/index.php/msg,44959)
I hope it solves it for you; I did mine because of the pops / bangs on overrun which is due to weak mix pointing to an air leak somewhere. It could be this but it didn't immediately spring to mind. I'd still like to know what your sensor readings are if you get the chance. Assuming it works, it would be good to tie any sensor info to a fix for future reference.
Oh, and I'd definitely have some allen screws ready to replace the chocolate torx ones.
Thanks Bob. I will try to get him to give me the sensor readings but the Triumph tool actually looks pretty sucky compared to the Tuneboy one so I'm not sure how easy it will be. Will try though.
Just got back from the shop... we seem to have a success! Gonna double check in the morning to make sure she fires up straight away. Will report back...
Keeping fingers crossed for ya .........Like I said in the PM it will be something incredibly simple causing the problem .
Now you get to fall in :love10 all over again :ImaPoser
Quote from: "Mustang"Keeping fingers crossed for ya .........Like I said in the PM it will be something incredibly simple causing the problem .
Now you get to fall in :love10 all over again :ImaPoser
Thanks man. You are right, we were all sure it'd be something simple. I just needed Triumph to call our tech back. I'm told there are 2 and 1 was on vacation. Everybody has an excuse for being slack these days...
I dunno about falling in love again. I've had some great times on Woods (my new name for the Tiger :lol: ) but I'm ready to get on a bike I can wrench on myself. All this electrical stuff is mind-boggling to me. All the hoses and wires and plugs and sensors for the sake of having EFI. I'm not sure I'm on board with that stuff anymore...
Quote from: "flux"I dunno about falling in love again. I've had some great times on Woods (my new name for the Tiger :lol: ) but I'm ready to get on a bike I can wrench on myself. All this electrical stuff is mind-boggling to me. All the hoses and wires and plugs and sensors for the sake of having EFI. I'm not sure I'm on board with that stuff anymore...
Sounds like there should be a steamer in your future ...............
No matter what Jetdocx says they are incredibly easy to work on and pretty damn reliable once you get the known triumph bugs out of the mix .....
did I mention how much I love my carbs . :love10
As far as EFI goes Triumph does not make any bikes anymore that use carbs , and a lot of other manufacturers are doing the same thing .
You will be hard pressed to find a bike soon that doesn't have EFI
even the tried and true mx bikes are now EFI , Honda CRF 450 is a perfect example of it .
It probably won't be that far into the future when even your lawn mower and (snow blower for us northern boys :ImaPoser ) will be EFI
Just go ride that Tiger of yours and the smile will return ............resistance is futile !
Nah, I don't buy new bikes anyway, so I have a few carbed bikes still to choose from. We shall see though. 8)
:lol: EFI on my lawn equipment... blech! Although, electric start would be nice on my 48" Exmark walk-behind!
SUCCESS!!!!
I got the bike back tonight and she is running like a top!
Thank you to all you guys who pitched in and helped or even offered words of encouragement. The new gasket between the throttle bodies and the motor did the trick.
Bob, I'm sorry man but we never did get the readings from the computer. :oops: I was just so happy to have it back that I totally forgot. If he happened to have printed them I'll be sure to report back.
:hello2 :hello2 :hello2 :hello2
:occasion14
Yay, well done
Glad it turned out well!!!
:lol: